Paudi-4-Jap Ji Sahib Interpretation

lalihayer · #37 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2009, 10:43 AM

Word ਕਰਮ has two different meanings and two different backgrounds. Some places it is from Persian background 'Krm' meaning ਬਖਸੀਸ or generosity. Other places it is from Sanskrit background meaning 'Karma' or deeds or system of cause and action set up in this universe by Lord. I am not a language expert, so there could be more details hidden somewhere.

Here is my view of the meaning of Pauri 4.
ਸਾਚਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਸਾਚੁ ਨਾਇ ਭਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਉ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/jap-ji-sahib/20145-paudi-4-jap-ji-sahib-interpretation.html
True is the Lord, true is His Nature and infinite love is His language. Want to speak to Him, you have to fall in love with Him. Guru Nanak had described already in previous Pauris power of His will. In the following Pauris, Now Guru Nanak is stating His beauty. With all the discussion of glory of our Lord, how can we stop ourselves from falling in love with Him? This is exactly what we needed (to converse with Him). Love is His language.

ਆਖਹਿ ਮੰਗਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦੇਹਿ ਦਾਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ॥
People keep on praying and asking from him," give! give!" and the great giver keep on giving.

ਫੇਰਿ ਕਿ ਅਗੈ ਰਖੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਦਿਸੈ ਦਰਬਾਰੁ ॥
Then, what should be placed before Him where-by His court may be seen?
Whatever we got is a gift from Him. So what can we offer Him to get a glimpse of Him?

ਮੁਹੌ ਕਿ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਬੋਲੀਐ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੁਣਿ ਧਰੇ ਪਿਆਰੁ ॥
Which words should we utter with our mouths by hearing which, we can find His love?

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145
This is the answer to last two Tuks. Early in the morning meditate upon His true Name and greatness. Contemplate upon His true Name and greatness.

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
By His grace, we got this physical body and by His grace, we will get salvation. After suggesting in the previous Tuk that we do effort, this Tuk again left everything to Lord. Effort must be there on our part, but can't be done without Lord's grace. Look how careful is our Guru Nanak that 'me' does not get strong. Although 'me' gets instructions that how to work, but right away 'me' is reminded that it can't be done without his grace.

ਨਾਨਕ ਏਵੈ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਸਚਿਆਰੁ ॥੪॥
Know thus, O Nanak! that the True One is ALL by Himself.
This tuk clears all the doubts. Do the nitnem, do the seva, do naam simran, but keep 'me' in check by never forgetting that True One is ALL by Himself.

Narayanjot Kaur · #38 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2009, 11:49 AM

lallihayer ji

Your explanation

"Word ਕਰਮ has two different meanings and two different backgrounds. Some places it is from Persian background 'Krm' meaning ਬਖਸੀਸ or generosity. Other places it is from Sanskrit background meaning 'Karma' or deeds or system of cause and action set up in this universe by Lord. I am not a language expert, so there could be more details hidden somewhere."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145

This is very helpful. There have been debates over the meaning of the word here at SPN. It does mean two things. They could also have an interconnected or closely related significance in Gurbani.

pk70 · #39 (**permalink**) 20-Feb-2009, 11:49 AM

[quote=lalihayer;94169]

ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
By His grace, we got this physical body and by His grace, we will get salvation. After suggesting in the previous Tuk that we do effort, this Tuk again left everything to Lord. Effort must be there on our part, but can't be done without Lord's grace. Look how careful is our Guru Nanak that 'me' does not get strong. Although 'me' gets instructions that how to work, but right away 'me' is reminded that it can't be done without his grace./quote]
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145
lalihayer ji

Whenever I have tried to differ on this site with those who claim to be learners, as per experience, some of them just take it personal.
So no offense please, I beg to differ with your interpretation here since the main idea is detoured to other one.
I highly recommend you to read Majh ki Vaar Stanza 27, Kapra as you interpret as body and some others too, is not for body because this is what Guru thinks as “blessing and honor given by the Lord”. I agree more with Dr Sahib Singh than any other scholar because he is the one who follows the idea that is started from the beginning by ignoring guessing. Many times Guru Shabad itself clears the meaning you don’t need help from any scholar to understand Guru Message. Let me just give you a hint, if you want to stick to whatever you believe is better, it is fine with me; however, just ponder over:
What Guru ji is discussing in previous Guru Vakas?
1. The language of the Lord
2. True love for the Lord,
3 Early in the morning to praise the Lord/contemplate on Him

That very Idea continues to the end, Guru says here that with His grace one falls in love with Him to praise Him sincerely and with His grace soul gets liberated.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145
From where is concept of body has come? I wonder!

Tejwant Singh · #40 (**permalink**) 21-Feb-2009, 02:19 AM

Lalihayer said:

Quote:

ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਵੇਲਾ ਸਚੁ ਨਾਉ ਵਡਿਆਈ ਵੀਚਾਰੁ ॥
This is the answer to last two Tuks. Early in the morning meditate upon His true Name and greatness. Contemplate upon His true Name and greatness.

PK70 said:
Quote:

Early in the morning to praise the Lord/contemplate on Him.

I have a question for both of you.

Please give me the hour/time which is not the hour/time for Amrit.

Thanks

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #41 (**permalink**) 21-Feb-2009, 02:35 AM

VaheguruSeekr ji

Please don't think I am being sarcastic when I say what I am about to say. Longitude and latitude as well as time zones change a lot of the common wisdom that circulates about amrit vela. Guru Nanak lived closer to the equator -- where days and nights are equally long for the better part of the year. I have always tried to figure out what the adjustment would be for someone in Norway where there is the Midnight Sun which lasts for weeks. There is no darkness and the sun does not really "rise" because it never completely "sets."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145

Therein lies the sticky wicket about amrit vela. The idea does not adapt well to real astronomical conditions. Given that -- does it really matter to Waheguru when we recite morning Banis? Waheguru (please for give me Akaal for this) is the Great Energy that designed a world in which days and nights are radically unequal depending on where one is. Sso how could the exact timing of amrit vela be a major consideration.

See what I mean? Nor do I think Guru Nanak was a fuss-budget about most things, including this matter of amrit vela.

Tejwant Singh · #42 (**permalink**) 21-Feb-2009, 03:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aad0002

VaheguruSeekr ji

Please don't think I am being sarcastic when I say what I am about to say. Longitude and latitude as well as time zones change a lot of the common wisdom that circulates about amrit vela. Guru Nanak lived closer to the equator -- where days and nights are equally long for the better part of the year. I have always tried to figure out what the adjustment would be for someone in Norway where there is the Midnight Sun which lasts for weeks. There is no darkness and the sun does not really "rise" because it never completely "sets."

Therein lies the sticky wicket about amrit vela. The idea does not adapt well to real astronomical conditions. Given that -- does it really matter to Waheguru when we recite morning Banis? Waheguru (please for give me Akaal for this) is the Great Energy that designed a world in which days and nights are radically unequal depending on where one is. Sso how could the exact timing of amrit vela be a major consideration.

See what I mean? Nor do I think Guru Nanak was a fuss-budget about most things, including this matter of amrit vela.

Antonia ji,

Guru fateh.

I am sorry if I am not able to express myself properly. First let us define what is Amrit according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then you, Pk70 and Lalihayer show me according to Gurmat which is not Amritvela? For example, when we do Rehraas or listen to Shabad Kirtan or do Shabad vichar, is that not Amrit vela? if not, pls tell me why not.

There is a thread on this site in which Amarpal ji & I discussed this in details long time ago. Please look for it and I would request you to re post it. All the interpretators including the scholars who partipicate in here daily misinterpret what Guru Nanak said.

According Amarpal ji, and myself, anytime we have Shabad vichaar it is Amrit Vela.

Amrit Vela= The time for Amrit and what is Amrit... ? Amrit naam nidhaan hai, mil piyvoh Bhai.....

Thanks and regards

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #43 (**permalink**) 21-Feb-2009, 04:37 AM

VaheguruSeekr ji

"I am sorry if I am not able to express myself properly. First let us define what is Amrit according to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and then you, Pk70 and Lalihayer show me according to Gurmat which is not Amritvela? For example, when we do Rehraas or listen to Shabad Kirtan or do Shabad vichar, is that not Amrit vela? if not, pls tell me why not."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=20145

I am not sure that we are in disagreement.

Tejwant Singh · #44 (**permalink**) 21-Feb-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

I am not sure that we are in disagreement.

Antonia ji,

Guru fateh.

I am glad you agree with me then that Amrit Vela is not strictly early in the morning or the ambrosial hours as it is translated by many, but any time we do Shanad Vichar is Amrit Vela. How can it be not?!

Regards

Tejwant Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #45 (**permalink**) 21-Feb-2009, 07:37 AM

VaheguruSeekr ji

Amrit Vela has a literal meaning which is basically the ambrosial hours. It has colloquial meaning -- i.e., early morning before sunrise. And it has the meaning of Guru Nanak, who I am sure did not give a fig for the exact time -- as I said above for a given longitude/latitude. The point that you make is essential. When you "awake" in prayer then that is "Amrit Vela" -- the time when you find the ambrosial sweetness of the Guru.