Women in Sikhism and Islam

JawDroppingPhilosopher · #91 (**permalink**) 31-Jul-2006, 04:46 AM

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i hate islam i tink sikhis yet to see the badness come through only true sikhs will remain by the help of guru ji

I dont understand this kind of attitude, and its the kind of atitude these "religions" bring about, infact i will once and for all say this, there is no more truth in religion than there is in politics, there is a difference between being religious and being spiritual. But there is no difference between politics and religion infact there has been no political movement on earth which hasnt been a little religious and there hasnt been a religious movement which hasnt been a little political I think the above quote serves nothing spiritual as even if it did, it could not exist in a universe in which we only express ourselves in spiritual form.

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Did he made his idelogy from himslef or from some inspiration from life of others also via litrature

My research comes from whatever is available for me to read, i have gained knowledge of the subject and origins of religions of people who have studied the subject for over 45 years. I have studied religions, their uses, and how we have been manipulated into accepting them as our answer to life, to be honest we have been threatened with eternal damnation and hellfire if we didnt accept these different religious sectors, each claiming to be the true path to god.

I do not have the answer to life, and neither do the people i gain my research from im just saying that if you believe in something then surely you should consider all angles before deciding to follow it throughout your life, some do this, yet the majority or the "mass" dont.

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idelogy

Id like to know exactly what my ideology is, i could say i dont believe in anything, exactly what could anyone argue to me about then? Nothing, they could not say anything because they have not the pinacle of a belief to destroy, because i simply dont have one

So i wont call it an ideology, the meaning of the word ideology is the unifying system of beliefs, attitudes, and values expressed in the superstructure of a culture, do you see a culture of open minded people? No.

vijaydeep Singh · #92 (**permalink**) 01-Aug-2006, 22:23 PM

Gurfateh

So dear bro does it mean that you got info from others via litrature or say word of mouth or say other archeological evidances.And that makes some of your views which you find are OK and practicle and perhaps you will perhaps further refrom it or may not reform it but will try that coming generation will get help from them? Is das correct?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/8933-women-in-sikhism-and-islam.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8933

Das is happy if you thing good for our coming generations and may God bless you.

ISDhillon · #93 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2006, 06:51 AM

Reding through this thread people got very confused with the various interpretations jdp has arrived through its subjective or dare i say free thinking study, its very simple if sikhism is a derivative of the sun moon star or whole damn galaxy religion of babylon then to date it is the purest form of that religion, why do i say this?, because when a faith satifies your conditions you dont really care where it comes from, i know i like eating chocalate even though the ancient mayans created it first that does not mean chocolate is any less tasty, haill the great babylonian religion of sikhism.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8933
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8933

indy aka "the jawbreaking philosopher"

JawDroppingPhilosopher · #94 (**permalink**) 04-Aug-2006, 00:33 AM

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Reding through this thread people got very confused with the various interpretations jdp has arrived through its subjective or dare i say free thinking study,

Yes, and you yourself have a higher degree of understanding of what i am talking about than people who are actually contributing to this thread? I doubt it, and by your post you clearly have no understanding whatsoever of Babylonian religions and what i am actually "talking about".

If hinduism came from these ancient religions, then sikhism is nothing more than neo-hinduism with an influence of Islam.

Then if we go back to the foundations, im talking before Babylonia and study the sumerians and their texts we find that these texts evolved into Egyptian Theology.

Again if we RESEARCH outside of the scopes of our own single minded views of "religion" we find out about
Pharaoh achnaton (who single handedly converted the belief of the whole of Egypt into the belief in one singular God (The Sun). They called this one true God "AMEN-RA", the pharoah said that when you prayer to God, you must prayer through the "sun of God", and after prayer in Egypt people would say "AMEN", this is why today in christian Churches people say "AMEN", it is simple fact but they will tell you not to research this kind of material because it is "the devil". Yes im sure what i am doing here is causing grave suffering.

What is even more interesting is the fact that Amen Ra was located at the top point of a pyramid, you can see this on the back of a dollar bill on the left hand side, you will see the top of the pyramid seperate from the rest, it contains an eye (the eye of God) and the sun in the centre, this point is called a "chief corner stone". Now, if we refer back to the Bible Jesus describes himself as "The Chief Cornerstone" many times, you can ask any Architect what the term "Chief Cornerstone" means and they will tell you it is the point at the top of a pyramid.

(By the way, this is also why we say RAYS OF THE SUN, it comes from RA - AMEN RA - RAY...Rays of the sun..)

This is what is so interesting about this research, it will open up a whole can of worms, this is one of thousends of examples of how religions today are simply repeated stories from ancient beliefs, something your Church will never want you to know.

I believe we are all brainwashed to some extent but one thing we can learn from what i say here is that i am not asking you to drop what you believe and follow "my path" no, that is the kind of egotism which fills many of todays religions if not all of them, i am simply asking you to open your mind and study every angle of every decision you make in your life.

I believe in evolution not revolution, revolution just causes us to return back to the mess we were originally fighting, as you can see with the word revolution it just means something going round in circles....

For example, most of you have cars so this example may appeal to you, what do you think RPM means? It is based around the revolutions per minute around a 360 degree circle, this is incredible metaphoric if you want to think of the circle as life.

Revolutions Per Minute. When the engine crankshaft turns 360 degrees it is one Revolution. The number of times the engine does this in a minute is the RPM it is set to.

The answer? Step back, and think beyond the circle.

It is also simple evolution with a "re" infront of it, what do you describe when you say i will "re-do" something, your doing it again and again. I say this because some of you may be reading this and be thinking, okay christianity is wrong, lets go to another religion, this is revolution, you will never evolve but simply go back into the same pot you needed to escape from in the first place.

ISDhillon i just want to know, have you formed your opinion on what i am saying (about sikhism evolving from babylonian religions) as false? If so then under what research have you conducted to express this baseless conclusion?

Okay maybe if you have research everything and looked at every angle, something which you can do! But people are too busy trying to live their lives they loose interest in looking at EVERY angle.

You can make faces and insult me all you like, you are only insulting yourself, if you have not studied every angle then what can you conclude about your opposition? If i say to you i believe in nothing, then what have you got to shoot down now?

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indy aka "the jawbreaking philosopher"

ISDhillon, thats great that you can break jaws with your fists, yet ill open your mind like an axe to the head with my words.

ISDhillon · #95 (**permalink**) 04-Aug-2006, 02:09 AM

[

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quote=JawDroppingPhilosopher]Yes, and you yourself have a higher degree of understanding of what i am talking about than people who are actually contributing to this thread?

yes i do, you are at the end of a long and growing list of people who are trying to transcend every religious system with a spin on old beliefs and religious traditions. I too can transcend by taking on the same free thinking watch me:

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If hinduism came from these ancient religions, then sikhism is nothing more than neo-hinduism with an influence of Islam.

if so it is the best and purest form of such an ancient tradition, islam and hinduism would do well to update their praxis and become on parr with sikhi.

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Then if we go back to the foundations, im talking before Babylonia and study the sumerians and their texts we find that these texts evolved into Egyptian Theology.

thats nice!

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Again if we RESEARCH outside of the scopes of our own single minded views of "religion" we find out about
Pharaoh achnaton (who single handedly converted the belief of the whole of Egypt into the belief in one singular God (The Sun). They called this one true God "AMEN-RA", the pharoah said that when you prayer to God, you must prayer through the "sun of God", and after prayer in Egypt people would say "AMEN", this is why today in christian Churches people say "AMEN", it is simple fact but they will tell you not to research this kind of material because it is "the devil". Yes im sure what i am doing here is causing grave suffering.

thats great!

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What is even more interesting is the fact that Amen Ra was located at the top point of a pyramid, you can see this on the back of a dollar bill on the left hand side, you will see the top of the pyramid seperate from the rest, it contains an eye (the eye of God) and the sun in the centre, this point is called a "chief corner stone". Now, if we refer back to the Bible Jesus describes himself as "The Chief Cornerstone" many times, you can ask any Architect what the term "Chief Cornerstone" means and they will tell you it is the point at the top of a pyramid.

brilliant!

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(By the way, this is also why we say RAYS OF THE SUN, it comes from RA - AMEN RA - RAY...Rays of the sun..)

thanks for breaking that down for me!

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This is what is so interesting about this research, it will open up a whole can of worms, this is one of thousends of examples of how religions today are simply repeated stories from ancient beliefs, something your Church will never want you to know.

you should be respected for sharing it with me but i fail to see how knowing this will deter me from my beliefs?

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I believe we are all brainwashed to some extent but one thing we can learn from what i say here is that i am not asking you to drop what you believe and follow "my path" no, that is the kind of egotism which fills many of todays religions if not all of them, i am simply asking you to open your mind and study every angle of every decision you make in your life.

personally this brinwashing is the best brainwashing ever i am thankfull for being brainwashed and my life would be nothing without this brainwash. I am so thankfull that i live an errounous and false life it has given me more than the real truth.

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I believe in evolution not revolution, revolution just causes us to return back to the mess we were originally fighting, as you can see with the word revolution it just means something going round in circles....

ok

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For example, most of you have cars so this example may appeal to you, what do you think RPM means? It is based around the revolutions per minute around a 360 degree circle, this is incredible metaphoric if you want to think of the circle as life.

ok

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ISDhillon i just want to know, have you formed your opinion on what i am saying (about sikhism evolving from babylonian religions) as false? If so then under what research have you conducted to express this baseless conclusion?

i have done no research i am openly accepting your accusations of my religion as long as you dont stop me from practicing a false religion we will be cool, because i relifh the falsehood that you are intolerant of and i would ask you to tolerate and be more open-minded to falshood

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Okay maybe if you have research everything and looked at every angle, something which you can do! But people are too busy trying to live their lives they loose interest in looking at EVERY angle.

this is where i say you are ignorant i have seen to much of this in my life, i even have rescued my own brother from these weirdos in speakers corner who preach these intolerant free thinking, illuminati bs and i havnt the time for it anymore thats why i can transcend your ideology too, but ofcourse now ill be branded egotistical,

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You can make faces and insult me all you like, you are only insulting yourself, if you have not studied every angle then what can you conclude about your opposition? If i say to you i believe in nothing, then what have you got to shoot down now?

i will say your belief in looking at everything from many angles is a glorified form of ancient atheism

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ISDhillon, thats great that you can break jaws with your fists, yet ill open your mind like an axe to the head with my words.

[/quote]

i love you too gurfateh!!!!!

indy

JawDroppingPhilosopher · #96 (**permalink**) 04-Aug-2006, 04:25 AM

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yes i do, you are at the end of a long and growing list of people who are trying to transcend every religious system with a spin on old beliefs and religious traditions.

Okay, so you believe the fact that i am inquisitive that i look at every angle means i am forming my own religion which is spun off religions i have studied?

Er, yeh, excuse me, i have seen this happen, and its exactly what has happend with your religion

. It is just a spin off of hinduism and Islam and other ancient indian beliefs.

Thats revolution yeh! , get real.

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if so it is the best and purest form of such an ancient tradition, islam and hinduism would do well to update their praxis and become on parr with sikhi.

What? You make no sense, you say simply because it has evolved from hinduism and islam it is better than these religions? 2000 years ago people thought the world was flat, yes this was the best and purest belief until an open minded person said, hold on lets go out and find out for sure... HEY ITS ROUND!

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thanks for breaking that down for me!

Your only shooting yourself in the foot by saying these things, you can discredit or insult my knowledge as much as you like with pathetic childish remarks yet my overall point was that you SAID you had an understanding of what i spoke of...CLEARLY YOU DONT BECAUSE THIS IS ALL NEW TO YOU.

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but i fail to see how knowing this will deter me from my beliefs?

But this is not my aim, im not here to destroy your belief, it belongs to you, i dont want you to believe what i believe because i believe in NOTHING SO WHAT CAN YOU SHOOT DOWN NOW?

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this is where i say you are ignorant

How can you say that? So you think that people should just shut up, follow their lives they are dictated, and not study every angle, of course if you want to do this then go ahead but you have no right to call me ignorant just because i want to learn about everything!

Okay maybe the illuminati theory is not correct! SO WHAT ive learned about it and you havent! Maybe it is true, what then?

You call me ignorant because i want to learn, and you call yourself and your brother normal, of course you are normal because you FOLLOW THE NORMS OF SOCIETY, my friend you become a member of the flock, or another sheep....

And im ignorant?

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i have done no research i am openly accepting your accusations of my religion as long as you dont stop me from practicing a false religion we will be cool, because i relifh the falsehood that you are intolerant of and i would ask you to tolerate and be more open-minded to falshood

This again is completely wrong, who said that i am intolerant, do you even know what this word means? I have studied your religion, yes i have said before that i enjoy it in theory, i enjoy spirituality so you clearly do not and never will understand what i mean!

you clearly dont, you assume i cannot stand your philosophy (sikh) but this again is NOT TRUE!

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my life would be nothing without this brainwash.

Wow, what a clever statement, how will you ever know if you have not experienced what your life would be like without your "brainwashing", this is what i mean, you cannot study every angle, and then believe you understand EVERYTHING.

Oh, you looked a bit lost when i was talking about revolution, the reason i spoke of this was i wanted to appeal to other people who may have been reading the post, lets not forget atleast 10% of my post was aimed at you ISDhillon, do not flatter yourself and think i am talking directly to you, since i have been on this website i have had people private messaging me wanting to know more about these religious political institutions which have contributed to so much bloodshed, murder, rape, oppression throughout history.

Label me what you like, insult me, do what you like, you have nothing to shoot down but the fact that i am open minded...

Remember....

Guru Nanak was an open minded individual, did he tell you to create a religion? No, did he say build a house from gold and say god lives within it...NO...

He believed in the soul of man, the spirituality, which is what needs to be addressed today.

So before you castigate me, may you find the heartly strength to research your own beliefs before forming conclusions and judgments upon me to base your offensive.

I have been through this many a time, it is not new to me.

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i even have rescued my own brother from these weirdos in speakers corner who preach these intolerant free thinking

Do you then take him and place him in an area which suits you? If this is the case, how can his mind expand? You dictate to him what he can believe... He can only go as far as you can go therefore

, you shoot yourself in the foot by the complete stupidity of your words and actions, im sorry i have to put it this way but if you cannot fathom the truth or being in this state of mind then you are already mentally under control, atleast dont stop others from being open minded.

Were not all like you, some of us enjoy having an infinite pool of knowlede and those people should learn learn and learn, study every angle, if any research material is required then please contact me ill pass on some good links.

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i will say your belief in looking at everything from many angles is a glorified form of ancient atheism

Do you even know what being an atheist means? It means you dont believe in God, when on this thread have i said that i dont believe in God?

Maybe you should study the meanings of words you spew out before concluding an open mind, which is an impossible task might i add.

This is just laughable.

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thats why i can transcend your ideology too, but ofcourse now ill be branded egotistical

What ideology? Do you even know the meaning of this word, well ill tell you, it means the unifying system of beliefs, attitudes, and values expressed in the superstructure of a culture, honestly, do you think this culture is an open minded one? No, because it contains people who castigate learning and studying ALL angles. So you cannot call what i speak of an ideology im afraid

....So you think you can "go beyond" an open mind with a single set path of belief? so if you learn your times tables your not moving forward by learning algebra or calculus?

Do you see the stupidity of your belief or opinion now?

Your mind is infinite why would you not want to utilise such an amazing tool? What are you scared of?

You believe you move beyond me because i learn infinite things and you stick to your one set path? NO.

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i love you too gurfateh!!!!!

Yeh, you have to love that comeback

ISDhillon · #97 (**permalink**) 04-Aug-2006, 06:44 AM

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Originally Posted by JawDroppingPhilosopher

Okay, so you believe the fact that i am inquisitive that i look at every angle means i am forming my own religion which is spun off religions i have studied?

not inquisitive, just intentional, your not forming your own religion either their is nothing new about your as there is a xtian goup in america which have been arguing that ilam is a form of the old moon worship religion these people consider themselves to be free thinking xtians, your not as good in your detail as them perhaps when i find their link i will refer you back for some better references.

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Er, yeh, excuse me, i have seen this happen, and its exactly what has happend with your religion

. It is just a spin off of hinduism and Islam and other ancient indian beliefs.

just saying does not make it so, if you can prove it then do, so far all you have done is provided a bizare interpretation of sikhism to sun worship you really dont have a leg to stand on, but i am bored and willing to amuse you.

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Thats revolution yeh! , get real.

you seem to be having a discussion with one of your multiple personalities i dont know what that line refers too.

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What? You make no sense, you say simply because it has evolved from hinduism and islam it is better than these religions? 2000 years ago people thought the world was flat, yes this was the best and purest belief until an open minded person said, hold on lets go out and find out for sure... HEY ITS ROUND!

exactly as time goes on the truth comes out and sikhism is he greatest truth to date, please let me know if u still dont understand

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Your only shooting yourself in the foot by saying these things, you can discredit or insult my knowledge as much as you like with pathetic childish remarks yet my overall point was that you SAID you had an understanding of what i spoke of...CLEARLY YOU DONT BECAUSE THIS IS ALL NEW TO YOU.

oh really none of these statements are related to what i have written i think youre just cutting and pasting these responses from an old discussion with one of your ultiple personalitie, try and relte what you sy to the disussion

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But this is not my aim, im not here to destroy your belief, it belongs to you, i dont want you to believe what i believe because i believe in NOTHING SO WHAT CAN YOU SHOOT DOWN NOW?

your suggets my religion hinders free thinking this is an attack on my faith, so you do intend to deter me from my beliefs, nice spin though

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How can you say that? So you think that people should just shut up, follow their lives they are dictated, and not study every angle, of course if you want to do this then go ahead but you have no right to call me ignorant just because i want to learn about everything!
Okay maybe the illuminati theory is not correct! SO WHAT ive learned about it and you havent! Maybe it is true, what then?
You call me ignorant because i want to learn, and you call yourself and your brother normal, of course you are normal because you FOLLOW THE NORMS OF SOCIETY, my friend you become a member of the flock, or another sheep....
And im ignorant?

this is simple ineither infring nor preach to anyone i have never felt compelled to address anyone unless they directly attack my beliefs even indirectly, if your path of was giving youthe same content you would not be on a sikh site whoring your free thinking, but you see their is something about sikhism that niggles you, i know alot of people who went away from their faith then suddenly they realisd they were still not complete but rather than re-learn about their religion they saved their egos because they were unwilling to admit their mistake, which was a lack of understanding, so i would say it is you who has not understood sikhism even though you claim o be a learner of a somewhat skewed "everything".

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This again is completely wrong, who said that i am intolerant, do you even know what this word means? I have studied your religion, yes i have said before that i enjoy it in theory, i enjoy spirituality so you clearly do not and never will understand what i mean!

you clearly dont, you assume i cannot stand your philosophy (sikh) but this again is NOT TRUE!

this is because like yourself i too believe that i can categorise your free-thinking and pigeonhole it into atheism, and just cos you have done a lot of research i will look at it as a glorified form, bu ultimately atheism is intolerant of theism, perhaps not physically but mentally yes, faith is faith anyone who does not have faith is intolerant.

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Wow, what a clever statement, how will you ever know if you have not experienced what your life would be like without your "brainwashing", this is what i mean, you cannot study every angle, and then believe you understand EVERYTHING.

i know because i have never felt the need to reevaluate my position, i see nothing out there in the big wide world which i would want other than sikhism, i love the smell and look of chocolat so i eat it, unfortunately their is no other roop other than khalsa which entices me the same way, other than kaam roop but then thats why you get married.

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Oh, you looked a bit lost when i was talking about revolution, the reason i spoke of this was i wanted to appeal to other people who may have been reading the post, lets not forget atleast 10% of my post was aimed at you ISDhillon, do not flatter yourself and think i am talking directly to you, since i have been on this website i have had people private messaging me wanting to know more about these religious political institutions which have contributed to so much bloodshed, murder, rape, oppression throughout history.

this is off topic try to be focssed when you next respond.

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Label me what you like, insult me, do what you like, you have nothing to shoot down but the fact that i am open minded...

why are you behaving like a martyr are yo one of these people who have been done bad and you labeled a whole community because ofur experience, you need a good slap if thats the case i am not going to give you a break because i feel sorry for you, get a grip.

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Remember....
Guru Nanak was an open minded individual, did he tell you to create a religion? No, did he say build a house from gold and say god lives within it...NO...

this is an ideological viewpoint i agree and i disagree, i dont think that sikhism is a religion, i do however believe all the gurus were one jot and thats simply because gurbani experience resounds within me, i do not believe that guru nanak was anything other than thi experience which resonates within me i do not believe that the 10 gurus are aything other than the gurbani itself. and no ones said golden temple is where god dwells, i believe gurbani is god, i believe that harimandar is a focal or gathering point for sikhism, like a busstop is fo travellers, you claim to be wide read but youre actually not, no offense

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He believed in the soul of man, the spirituality, which is what needs to be addressed today.
So before you castigate me, may you find the heartly strength to research your own beliefs before forming conclusions and judgments upon me to base your offensive.

who is he? like ive sid before the word is god i dont believe in he or the flesh if flesh is importnt to you then spirituality is not something you can debate on is it?

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I have been through this many a time, it is not new to me.

and your still not at a point in your life where you have moved on

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Do you then take him and place him in an area which suits you? If this is the case, how can his mind expand? You dictate to him what he can believe... He can only go as far as you can go therefore

, you shoot yourself in the foot by the complete stupidity of your words and actions, im sorry i have to put it this way but if you cannot fathom the truth or being in this state of mind then you are already mentally under control, atleast dont stop others from being open minded.

no i put him in a place where i am not infringed i actually like listening to his ideas but in my personal space when someone deliver prescriptive authority on a subjective reality it is impossible to explain other than by setting boundaries. calling me stupid and stuff isout of context i dont mind you calling me stupid my brotherdoes this aswell i just need you to know that it might be more easier for you to not get emotional if you are suffering then perhaps this isu has nothing to do with sikhism more your bad experience, in counselling we call this transference where you project your childhood bad experience onto someone else, remember i am not your father or mother i am a neautral body, and so too is your guru

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Were not all like you, some of us enjoy having an infinite pool of knowlede and those people should learn learn and learn, study every angle, if any research material is required then please contact me ill pass on some good links.

i value diversity the world would be a boring place if we all did not like the infinite pool of knowledge so yourwelcome to jump in and have a good swim in the pool i am more concerned about you splashing with the same water it soaks my clothes and makes me irritable.

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Do you even know what being an atheist means? It means you dont believe in God, when on this thread have i said that i dont believe in God?

well when you started all the babylon stuff you never said the baylon stuff was wrong or anything because yu yourself would not know anything about a higher consciousness had religion not been here, if you say you would then you hav to stop reading conversations with god its a stupid book.

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Maybe you should study the meanings of words you spew out before concluding an open mind, which is an impossible task might i add.

ok if i find the time i will
This is just laughable.

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What ideology? Do you even know the meaning of this word, well ill tell you, it means the unifying system of beliefs, attitudes, and values expressed in the superstructure of a culture, honestly, do you think this culture is an open minded one? No, because it contains people who castigate learning and studying ALL angles. So you cannot call what i speak of an ideology im afraid

i can if i label you as an atheist, tell me if i find 100 freethinking spiritualists such as yourself and then subsequently find a unifying principle such as the oneness of spirit i could then address you asan ideology, through such labelling the ego will be born and you and your free thinking bunch will no longer have anything more valuable to contribute to society, so then one day a individual such as yourself will come along and say hey lets transcend the egotistical bunch and label them babylonian, and lets elevate ourselves as the humble freethinking buncj because that was the higher purpose of the initial non-egotistical bunch, and hey presto another unifie group. your views are nothing new my frind repeat gods name and work hard and contribute to society!!!!

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Do you see the stupidity of your belief or opinion now?

no

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Your mind is infinite why would you not want to utilise such an amazing tool? What are you scared of?
You believe you move beyond me because i learn infinite things and you stick to your one set path? NO.

read the above

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Yeh, you have to love that comeback

let me know if i can help you further

indy

JawDroppingPhilosopher · #98 (**permalink**) 04-Aug-2006, 21:03 PM

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not inquisitive, just intentional, your not forming your own religion either their is nothing new about your as there is a xtian goup in america which have been arguing that ilam is a form of the old moon worship religion these people consider themselves to be free thinking xtians, your not as good in your detail as them perhaps when i find their link i will refer you back for some better references.

Okay, i find you to be a person who wishes to label me something, as an open minded person cannot be labelled anything because i believe in nothing, not even the re-formulation of the belief in christianity, because if we did that then i would be a hypocrite (that i believe it has simply re-formed from babylonian religions and astro theology) which it has.

So the idea of you placing me under a certain religious cult when i can study this cult and be free of its imprisonment as accepting it as my eternal belief (which i dont) completely ends your arguement.

Next quote.

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just saying does not make it so, if you can prove it then do, so far all you have done is provided a bizare interpretation of sikhism to sun worship you really dont have a leg to stand on, but i am bored and willing to amuse you.

What do you mean just saying it? LOL you say your a religious person yet if we simply compare the beliefs of sikhism to that of what existed before which was nothing more than Islam and Hinduism ITS OBVIOUS, YOUR OWN BELIEVERS BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE, and your sitting here trying to change the historical fact of your religion to win an arguement?

Guru Nanak was a Hindu was he not? He travelled to Mecca and studied Islam did he not? Your religion in your texts refers to god as being "Brahmin and even Allah"... What more proof do you need?

The proof is in your own texts!!! you dont have to ask me, go to your holy men at the temple and ask them.

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you seem to be having a discussion with one of your multiple personalities i dont know what that line refers too.

Clearly you dont, maybe if you simply asked me in a nice manner we could move forward together, but no, your here to "prove me wrong".

Anyway, i say revolution because when we have a revolution it is usually due to a political or religious social change, now, this does not evolve humanity because we simply re-evolve, revolution, we go back into the same pit we were in at the start.

Yes lets not be christians, lets all become muslims, this will help society, im sure by creating another form of division we are more "at one".

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exactly as time goes on the truth comes out and sikhism is he greatest truth to date, please let me know if u still dont understand

But if sikhism is so true, then why are there only a mere few million followers of that religion? Clearly it is not the truth, and how can you measure this, how can you say this?

So did time end when the "truth" of sikhism was embraced

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So you say that as time passes, new beliefs and theories are more "true" then old ones (i am against this by the way) does that make what i believe more true then sikhism then?

You said it.

Besides the point there are hundreds of religions which have been created after sikhism, you dont believe these to be true i thought Muhammed was the last prophet though, so what does that make Guru Nanak? A free thinker... Yeh and im the biggest criminal here.

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oh really none of these statements are related to what i have written i think youre just cutting and pasting these responses from an old discussion with one of your ultiple personalitie, try and relte what you sy to the disussion

What? This clearly relates to the conversation, i was speaking to the general readers of this forum of Egyptian transformation of theology into Christianity and you quoted what i wrote, and said...

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Thats nice

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Brilliant

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Thanks for breaking that down for me

This is what i was referring to, i found this highly insulting, even though i said only 10% of my message was aimed at you, dont flatter yourself into thinking i wrote that for your eyes only.

I believe everything i write relates to what you have written, if you cannot understand what i am saying about it, then i was right from the beginning in that you cannot hardly understand what you yourself are writting, probably why you called what i speak of an "ideology".

Understand what you are saying yourself, you know, communism, that is an ideology, christianity, the church, that is an ideology.

Free thinking involves the study of EVERYTHING do you think any society today conforms to this method of thinking? I dont, you speak of Xtians, these people who have created a religion have simply created a new sect of Christianity who follow Jesus Christ in a different form.

How on Gods earth does that describe me?

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your suggets my religion hinders free thinking this is an attack on my faith, so you do intend to deter me from my beliefs, nice spin though

Of course religion hinders free thinking, it has been a fact since the dawn of religion, can i honestly speak of what i talk in a Church? Could i speak of this in a temple? well i cant speak of this infront of a sikh without him/her attacking me for expressing my infinite field of thought and being open minded, i hope this answers your question.

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nice spin though

I dont know what you mean by this, clearly we have different motives in this arguement but id call you wrong of the highest degree to match yours to mine, i am not here to win a debate for egotistical reasons, or to "prove my belief correct" im just saying that if you wish to believe or follow something then surely you should look at all angles before conforming to this one set path belief.

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if your path of was giving youthe same content you would not be on a sikh site whoring your free thinking,

My path? Well i was born into a sikh family, i guess the reason i came here was not to try and downgrade belief by insulting ones herritage but this is clearly how i have been percieved from the beginning, i was called a muslim at one point!

This is laughable in that i come here to learn, to discuss, a large quote given as a joined this website was.

"Think - Discuss - Share - Learn - Evolve"

I AGREE!!

Sikh means a learner, so why dont you be a sikh and learn new things, your mind is infinite, dont percieve me to be some wicked dvil who is here to win debate for egotistical reasons. I am sharing knowledge with you, you can insult me for doing so but there are many people who appreciate me doing this, and i know thins from the ammount of PM's i have been recieving.

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this is because like yourself i too believe that i can categorise your free-thinking and pigeonhole it into atheism, and just cos you have done a lot of research i will look at it as a glorified form, bu ultimately atheism is intolerant of theism, perhaps not physically but mentally yes, faith is faith anyone who does not have faith is intolerant.

This is an interesting point, at face-value if one calls me an atheist then 9 times out of 10 one is implying i dont believe in god.

Definition of Atheist: One who denies or disbelieves the existence of a God.#

Well, i believe in God.

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bu ultimately atheism is intolerant of theism

Okay, so what is Theism? Well,

theism is a doctrine of belief, well, isnt believing in many Gods (polytheism) a doctrine, therefore in a Polytheistic society you my sikh friend would be classed as an atheist would you not?

This is why i am against conforming to a single set path, because the only truth which exists is the action you take to find it.

I appreciate what your saying but you must actually experience the open level of thought before you can conclude it yourself.

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i know because i have never felt the need to reevaluate my position, i see nothing out there in the big wide world which i would want other than sikhism,

Okay, but how can you judge these things (you wich not or feel the need not to experience) if you have not experienced them, surely before you conform your life to a single set path you should look at every angle, what if you lived your life in one set path and on the day you die you find out it was wrong, what then?

Atleast experience everything, atleast step outside of the circle and look from far away at what is going on, the motives and politics of religion. I dont want you to conform to the belief of open mindedness, you should be that anyway as a sikh.

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why are you behaving like a martyr are yo one of these people who have been done bad and you labeled a whole community because ofur experience, you need a good slap

This is the second time you have threatend me with physical abuse, does this date back to the violent bloody history of your religion? the fact that pictures of your "gurus" were artists impressions and a history of bloody, political wars which sikhs are often proud and egotistical about.

I can be insulting aswel, if you dont understand me then ill speak in a language you can understand.

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this is off topic try to be focssed when you next respond.

How is this off the topic? Were talking religion, so yeh were talking murder, rape, violence and war, lets not forget the fact that religion has caused the most bloodshed in the "name of god" than any other entity which has ever existed on this planet before, this is because religion is just politics, nothing more.

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this is an ideological viewpoint

Is it really? Do you really think the whol society of sikhs believe this? THEN WHY THE HELL DID THEY GO AGAINST WHAT HE SAID!!

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this is an ideological viewpoint i agree and i disagree, i dont think that sikhism is a religion, i do however believe all the gurus were one jot and thats simply because gurbani experience resounds within me, i do not believe that guru nanak was anything other than thi experience which resonates within me i do not believe that the 10 gurus are aything other than the gurbani itself. and no ones said golden temple is where god dwells, i believe gurbani is god, i believe that harimandar is a focal or gathering point for sikhism, like a busstop is fo travellers, you claim to be wide read but youre actually not, no offense

Thats fantastic that your a religious person, no offence, but so what. You would be classed as a satanist and a devil worshiping infidel if you said that to a Muslim, like ive said before im not here to discuss the theory behind sikhism by all means its sounds wonderful, this utopic society which was described through "the word of god" which also contradicts the millions of other forms of the "word of god" which have existed over the thousends of years.

So lets talk about the people before sikhism or christianity, do you know in the Bible (i think its Isaiah 19 - 20, if i remember correctly) it says that in the centre of the midst of the land of Egypt shall stand an alter to the Lord, well, in the centre of the land of Egypt there is an alter, a pyramid. which is an alter for the lord, AMEN-RA, Horus the SUN/SON OF GOD.

But this pyramid was built 3000 years ago...

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who is he? like ive sid before the word is god i dont believe in he or the flesh if flesh is importnt to you then spirituality is not something you can debate on is it?

I never once implyed that flesh was important to me, but it seems to be that way by your corrupted religion plagued with pictures of the Gurus in temples throughout nations, how did they get there?

A sikh philosopher writes:

One wonders how the false pictures of the Gurus and even their plastic, wooden and metallic idols appeared, not only in the houses of the Sikhs but also in many Gurdwaras. This is nothing but Brahmanical philosophy displacing the Sikh faith from the Sikh houses and their places of worship.

No true pictures of the Guru exist, though some have been claimed to be true pictures. One 'true' picture is totally different from the other 'true' picture. Most of them are modern paintings. Some old sketches / paintings are also available, but all are based on the imagination of the painters. No Guru permitted his painting to be made in his time, because it is against the philosophy of the Sikh faith as mentioned earlier. We should not have Guru pictures in our houses or Gurdwaras. Instead we should have Gurbaani hymns written and hung for our guidance in our house.

Who on earth, or when did i say i believe in physical form or nothing more than the flesh? Answer me that, i believe in consciousness, that through experience we move forward.

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and your still not at a point in your life where you have moved on

You say this about me, that i have not moved on, and you then say the following:

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i see nothing out there in the big wide world which i would want other than sikhism, i love the smell and look of chocolat so i eat it,

So you found sikhism, felt the need not to move forward and on with your life, and now you call open minded people who wish to experience infinite things as backward individuals who have not moved on in their lives.

This isnt even the point, the fact is you have no idea of what i have experienced in my life and what i have learned, you have told me you have learned sikhism and need not know more, so my friend you are the one who will not and have not moved on

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ISDhillon · #99 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2006, 02:10 AM

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as an open minded person cannot be labelled anything because i believe in nothing,

but youve just labelled yourself as open-minded, so your contradicting yourself

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So the idea of you placing me under a certain religious cult when i can study this cult and be free of its imprisonment as accepting it as my eternal belief (which i dont) completely ends your arguement.

not so, youre belief is now a form of free-thinking you have ended no argument

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LOL you say your a religious person yet if we simply compare the beliefs of sikhism to that of what existed before which was nothing more than Islam and Hinduism ITS OBVIOUS, YOUR OWN BELIEVERS BELIEVE THIS TO BE TRUE, and your sitting here trying to change the historical fact of your religion to win an arguement?

i have never said i am religious person i even said in my last post that sikhism is not a religion are you paying attention or has your free thinking allowed you to be less focussed?

the concept og guru-granth and guru-panth has never existed before sikhism, the concept of naam and amrit in sikhism has never existed before, the concept of a creative god which has no wrath, and cannot be born and does not outsource creation has never existed before, other than you brazen bizzarre and muddled extrapolation to baylonian mythology.

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Guru Nanak was a Hindu was he not?

guru nanak was born into a family which believed in a dharma which today would be classed as hinduism

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He travelled to Mecca and studied Islam did he not?

he exposed the futility of such an observance as hajj, you are not well read at all, am i talking to an ignorant pseudo-freethinker?

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Your religion in your texts refers to god as being "Brahmin and even Allah"... What more proof do you need?

is that your proof? i would not be so sure of myself with that babble.

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The proof is in your own texts!!! you dont have to ask me, go to your holy men at the temple and ask them.

what holy men my faith says man needs to go to no-one i am asovereign spirit there is not intermediate i can partake of the divine freely what holy men are you referring to, dont be swayed by a few people who represent a faith in a distorted way, and then dont tar all of us with the same brush.

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Anyway, i say revolution because when we have a revolution it is usually due to a political or religious social change, now, this does not evolve humanity because we simply re-evolve, revolution, we go back into the same pit we were in at the start.

humanity was evolved with the concept of naam and amrit, i dont know any other way which has elicited these concepts like sikhism has, morality is a great contribution to society also this concept was introduced fervently by islam, society is constantly evolving, what evolution dous your position hold and what will it contribute?

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Yes lets not be christians, lets all become muslims, this will help society, im sure by creating another form of division we are more "at one".

sikhism does not follow a totalitarian creed i am learning of your ignorance more and more through this dialogue, you have a lot of distorted perceptons of our faith and the sad thing is if no one challenges you you will preach such ignorance to others.

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But if sikhism is so true, then why are there only a mere few million followers of that religion? Clearly it is not the truth, and how can you measure this, how can you say this?

quality not quantity, there are more rocks than diamonds yet there is no amount of rocks worthy of a diamond, your belief in quantity is shallow.

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So did time end when the "truth" of sikhism was embraced

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no because sikhism states that man can never fully sing the praises of god, thats why people like you are expounding more truths today, but sikhism is open to this not closed.

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So you say that as time passes, new beliefs and theories are more "true" then old ones (i am against this by the way) does that make what i believe more true then sikhism then?

read above

You said it.

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Besides the point there are hundreds of religions which have been created after sikhism, you dont believe these to be true i thought Muhammed was the last prophet though, so what does that make Guru Nanak? A free thinker... Yeh and im the biggest criminal here.

read above, and it is ok if more religions are created there is only a problem if the religions infringe on others then we are lucky cos we have the khalsa to uproot such tyrants, sikhism is a liberal faith with a warrior undercurrent.

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What? This clearly relates to the conversation, i was speaking to the general readers of this forum of Egyptian transformation of theology into Christianity and you quoted what i wrote, and said...

yes but those statement s were made cos all your writing on egyptian mythology had no initial beariing the beginning discussion thats why i was unconcerned with all that you wrote, learn the religion you decided to callenge first before you make comparisons with all the old myths.

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This is what i was referring to, i found this highly insulting, even though i said only 10% of my message was aimed at you, dont flatter yourself into thinking i wrote that for your eyes only.

i dont think you find it insulting at all i think you need to write this so you can take a moral high ground but i am not that naiive

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I believe everything i write relates to what you have written, if you cannot understand what i am saying about it, then i was right from the beginning in that you cannot hardly understand what you yourself are writting, probably why you called what i speak of an "ideology".

yes the ideolgy you are espousing is postmodern thought.

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Understand what you are saying yourself, you know, communism, that is an ideology, christianity, the church, that is an ideology.

so too is postmodernism. words are transitory they are just noises understand this and you will be alot wiser.

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Free thinking involves the study of EVERYTHING do you think any society today conforms to this method of thinking? I dont, you speak of Xtians, these people who have created a religion have simply created a new sect of Christianity who follow Jesus Christ in a different form.

thats nice

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Of course religion hinders free thinking, it has been a fact since the dawn of religion, can i honestly speak of what i talk in a Church? Could i speak of this in a temple? well i cant speak of this infront of a sikh without him/her attacking me for expressing my infinite field of thought and being open minded, i hope this answers your question.

your using personal experiences as proof of sikhism hindering free thinking, i have never been hindered, if you fear speaking your mind then you are at fault also, if someone hinders free thinking then challenge them, but dont label the hole faith as a hindrance, religion is not the hindrance, religious fanatics are, and their are fanatical free thinkers which are not content with holding there thought they need to act and legislate their free thinking like frances militant secularism.

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im just saying that if you wish to believe or follow something then surely you should look at all angles before conforming to this one set path belief.

which is an opion just cos you write it so confidently does not make it true at all.

evolution works both ways, we have come to an impasse in society where freedom is more costly and family is now more cherished, this is a srt of reversal in society, so devolving is sometimes and evolving process i love contradiction

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Sikh means a learner, so why dont you be a sikh and learn new things, your mind is infinite, dont percieve me to be some wicked dvil who is here to win debate for egotistical reasons. I am sharing knowledge with you, you can insult me for doing so but there are many people who appreciate me doing this, and i know thins from the ammount of PM's i have been recieving.

i dont think you have alot of pm's and i dont mind if you share your learning is just when you dont accept youre misunderstanding, you attach labels to sikhism and condemn a religion but argue that religion in itself is guilty of division, you are guilty of your own accusations, in fact i have had enough!

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Okay, so what is Theism? Well,

theism is a doctrine of belief, well, isnt believing in many Gods (polytheism) a doctrine, therefore in a Polytheistic society you my sikh friend would be classed as an atheist would you not?

no not at all how did you work that out? i would be classed as a monotheist doh

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This is why i am against conforming to a single set path, because the only truth which exists is the action you take to find it.

my religion teaches me that only spirit or ultimate reality is truth, rigteousness is something we need to strive for not truth. the truth is within.

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I appreciate what your saying but you must actually experience the open level of thought before you can conclude it yourself.

no that is one way of doing it, be more open-minded to closed-systems of thought, this si why youre intolerant of closed minds.

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Okay, but how can you judge these things (you wich not or feel the need not to experience) if you have not experienced them, surely before you conform your life to a single set path you should look at every angle, what if you lived your life in one set path and on the day you die you find out it was wrong, what then?

why judge i know what i like it is mt choice if i love soemthing i will follow it i dont need to eat **** to judge whether it is for my liking i know!!!!

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Atleast experience everything, atleast step outside of the circle and look from far away at what is going on, the motives and politics of religion. I dont want you to conform to the belief of open mindedness, you should be that anyway as a sikh.

ok

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This is the second time you have threatend me with physical abuse, does this date back to the violent bloody history of your religion? the fact that pictures of your "gurus" were artists impressions and a history of bloody, political wars which sikhs are often proud and egotistical about.

it was said in humour and your a drama queen.

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I can be insulting aswel, if you dont understand me then ill speak in a language you can understand.

go for it

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How is this off the topic? Were talking religion, so yeh were talking murder, rape, violence and war, lets not forget the fact that religion has caused the most bloodshed in the "name of god" than any other entity which has ever existed on this planet before, this is because religion is just politics, nothing more.

20th century is the cause of the most war and bloodshed in the world the 20th century is also the most evolved society.

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Is it really? Do you really think the whol society of sikhs believe this? THEN WHY THE HELL DID THEY GO AGAINST WHAT HE SAID!!

cos were all free thinking individuals would you prefer we were all the same and conformed to one set of beliefs?

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Thats fantastic that your a religious person, no offence, but so what. You would be classed as a satanist and a devil worshiping infidel if you said that to a Muslim, like ive said before im not here to discuss the theory behind sikhism by all means its sounds wonderful, this utopic society which was described through "the word of god" which also contradicts the millions of other forms of the "word of god" which have existed over the thousends of years.

there is no wrod of god in sikhism, the word is god, and there has never been a direc revelation only ever angelic revelations, and nothing written by the hand of the prophet, so no comparison in history.

and the rest of your message iis more of the same trite but just rearranged ,get a life and stop being a loser,

indy