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New book on the origins of Islam

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Old 24-Apr-2012, 03:49 AM
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Re: New book on the origins of Islam

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroboy View Post
This predates Islam and it is about Moses. See the pictures.
The real Mount Sinai is not in Egypt.
Bible Texts Locate the Real Mount Sinai
http://www.discoverynews.us/DISCOVER...ai/sinai2.html
Very interesting brother Astroboy! Thank you for this peacesignkaur


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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 24-Apr-2012, 04:13 AM
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Re: New book on the origins of Islam

My dear brother Auzer peacesign

As-Salaam-Alaikum! (Peace be with you)

Neither the article nor the book I referred to doubt that there was a historical man who was given the title of Muhammad (the Praised One) and who lived around the 6th and 7th centuries in the Middle East. What is in dispute is the Origins of Islam as an independent world religion. There is practically no evidence for a major trade-route running through a place called Mecca at the time of Muhammad; nor is there any evidence for a religion called Islam nor a holy book called the Qur'an until the Abbasid Caliphate in the 8th century, when we clearly have an independent world religion holding together a vast Empire. Secondly, the earliest accounts of Muhammad are radically different from the Hadiths which date to around 200-300 years after his existence.

The earliest non-Islamic mention of Muhammad that we have is from a Christian writer called Sebeos, a Bishop of the Armenian Church, who wrote in the 7th century. To him has been attributed A History of Heraclius, chronicling events from the end of the fifth century to 661. However the authenticity of this is disputed, it may be from later centuries. If we take it as authentic (and regardless it is our earliest account anyway if it isn't) then it presents a RADICALLY different understanding of Muhammad with none of the main events of Islamic history - ie divine revelations in the cave, Angel Gabriel, the Hajj, Mecca, Medina, the battles and wars of the prophet, a religion called Islam etc.

Sebeos supposedly wrote in 660 A.D:


"...Twelve peoples representing all the tribes of the Jews assembled at the city of Edessa. When they saw that the Persian troops had departed leaving the city in peace, they closed the gates and fortified themselves. They refused entry to troops of the Roman lordship. Thus Heraclius, emperor of the Byzantines, gave the order to besiege it. When the Jews realized that they could not militarily resist him, they promised to make peace. Opening the city gates, they went before him, and Heraclius ordered that they should go and stay in their own place. So they departed, taking the road through the desert to Tachkastan Arabia to the sons of Ishmael. The Jews called the Arabs to their aid and familiarized them with the relationship they had through the books of the Old Testament. Although the Arabs were convinced of their close relationship, they were unable to get a consensus from their multitude, for they were divided from each other by religion. In that period a certain one of them, a man of the sons of Ishmael named Muhammad, became prominent...Muhammad taught them to recognize the God of Abraham, especially since he was informed and knowledgeable about Mosaic history. Because the command had come from on High, he ordered them all to assemble together and to unite in faith. Abandoning the reverence of vain things, they turned toward the living God, who had appeared to their father–Abraham. Muhammad legislated that they were not to eat carrion, not to drink wine, not to speak falsehoods, and not to commit adultery. He said: “God promised that country to Abraham and to his son after him, for eternity. And what had been promised was fulfilled during that time when God loved Israel. Now, however, you are the sons of Abraham, and God shall fulfill the promise made to Abraham and his son on you. Only love the God of Abraham, and go and take the country which God gave to your father Abraham. No one can successfully resist you in war, since God is with you”..."


Read:


"...The Qur'an implies that Muhammad severed his relationship with the Jews in 624 A.D. (or soon after the Hijra in 622 A.D.), and thus moved the direction of prayer, the Qibla at that time from Jerusalem to Mecca (Sura 2:144, 149-150). The early non-Muslim sources, however, depict a good relationship between the Muslims and Jews at the time of the first conquests (late 620s A.D.), and even later. Yet the Doctrina Iacobi warns of the Jews who mix with the Saracens,' and the danger to life and limb of falling into the hands of these Jews and Saracens' (Bonwetsch 1910:88; Cook 1983:75). In fact, this relationship seems to carry right on into the conquest as an early Armenian source mentions that the governor of Jerusalem in the aftermath of the conquest was a Jew (Patkanean 1879:111; Sebeos 1904:103).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/38385-new-book-on-the-origins-islam.html
What is significant here is the possibility that Jews and Arabs (Saracens) seem to be allied together during the time of the conquest of Palestine and even for a short time after (Crone-Cook 1977:6).
If these witnesses are correct than one must ask how it is that the Jews and Saracens (Arabs) are allies as late as 640 A.D., when, according to the Qur'an, Muhammad severed his ties with the Jews as early as 624 A.D., more than 15 years earlier?
To answer that we need to refer to the earliest connected account of the career of the prophet,' that given in an Armenian chronicle from around 660 A.D., which is ascribed by some to Bishop Sebeos (Sebeos 1904:94-96; Crone-Cook 1977:6). The chronicler describes how Muhammad established a community which comprised both Ishmaelites (i.e. Arabs) and Jews, and that their common platform was their common descent from Abraham; the Arabs via Ishmael, and the Jews via Isaac (Sebeos 1904:94-96; Crone-Cook 1977:8; Cook 1983:75). The chronicler believed Muhammad had endowed both communities with a birthright to the Holy Land, while simultaneously providing them with a monotheist genealogy (Crone-Cook 1977. This is not without precedent as the idea of an Ishmaelite birthright to the Holy Land was discussed and rejected earlier in the Genesis Rabbah (61:7), in the Babylonian Talmud and in the Book of Jubilees (Crone-Cook 1977:159).
Here we find a number of non-Muslim documentary sources contradicting the Qur'an, maintaining that there was a good relationship between the Arabs and Jews for at least a further 15 years beyond that which the Qur'an asserts.
If Palestine was the focus for the Arabs, then the city of Mecca comes into question, and further documentary data concerning Mecca may prove to be the most damaging evidence against the reliability of the Qur'an which we have to date..."


There is no mention in the early non-Muslim literature, if even valid, of a new religion. It is simply a group of Jews asking their Arab neighbours, who are genetically related to them, to believe in one God and unite with the Jews against the Byzantine Empire and remove them from the Holy Land so as to give it back to the Children of Abraham and out of Christian and Persian control. The Arabs are torn because they are polytheists but one Arab leader becomes prominent because he supports the Jewish envoys and claims that Arabs really are Children of Abraham. This wise man is called Muhammad and he has read the Bible and made a thorough investigation of the roots of the Arab peoples, finding their origin in the figure of Abraham. He has also come to believe that there is One God. He thus creates a united group of Jews and Arabs and wages war against the Byzantines. In the aftermath, a new Arab Empire is forged under his rule and that of his successors.

Islam in this respect comes two centuries later.

peacesignkaur


What is fascinating is that this early view seems to back up the Catholic view of Islam.

Our view of Ishmael essentially is connected with our view of Islam, the religion whose founder traces his genetic lineage from that son of the prophet Abraham. One of our best scholars on Islam, the French priest and theologian Louis Massignon said that: "Islam is a mysterious answer of divine grace to Abraham's prayer for his son Ishmael and the Arab race". (Borrmans, 122).

Massignon, and I would say the Catholic Church, views Islam as God's fulfilment of Abraham's prayer for his son Ishmael, who was exiled with his mother Hagar and for his people, the great nation which God promised to him, the Arabs and the subsequent Islamic religion and civilisation. In the Qur’an it is written: “We have revealed to you an Arabic Qur'an that it be easy for you people to understand / use reason"(12:2). This certainly seems to suggest that the Qur'an is truly an answer of divine grace to Ishmael and the Arab peoples.

To have one's son exiled is surely a painful, terrible experience for any father to go through and I have always sympathised with Ishmael. He seems to have become a bit of an outcast to the rest of his family, not of Abraham but certainly of his wife Sarah, and it does indeed appear from the bible that young Ishmael gets pushed to the sidelines. However, he was vindicated - somewhat - with the coming of Muhammad and the emergence of the Islamic faith a century or so after.

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385
It is not well known but Pope Paul VI was a member of the circle (the Badaliya or "Islamic prayer circle") of the Islamologist Louis Massignon.


In the Catholic Church's view, Islam is a religion based on Muhammad's genuine inspiration, which made him see the oneness (tawhid) of God. This inspiration was completed by research in which Muhammad found the origins of the Arab people in the Biblical person of Ishmael. (Borrmans, 119f) We thus see the revelation in Islam as a "mysterious answer of divine grace to Abraham's prayer for Ishmael and the Arab race". (Borrmans, 122). Given their common origin in Abraham, Christians should always approach Muslims as brothers in Abraham "united by the same spirit of faith and sacrifice".

To cut a long story short: Muhammad saw it as his original mission, according to Massignon, to spread the message of the oneness of God among the Arab peoples. He was thus God's answer to Abraham's prayer for his beloved son and his son's people.

So according to the Catholic Church, at least, God cared enough for Ishmael to grant him thousands of years later a religion in his honour. He cared so much for Ishmael that he intervened and gave monotheism to his descendants through Muhammad!

Later on Muhammad's teachings became somewhat changed and transformed as the sacred scripture the Qur'an came into being, but the essence still existed and does so now.
__________________

Its all theory but interesting nonetheless!

Last edited by Archived_member15; 24-Apr-2012 at 04:25 AM.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 24-Apr-2012, 10:08 AM
Auzer's Avatar Auzer Auzer is offline
 
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Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Seeker and Vouthon ji ,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

Lets break it down and dissect the issue ...

So what we know is that there was one man named Muhammad , in 7th century , who preached monotheism to the Arabs. He regarded Jesus as only a Prophet but not God. He abolished idol worship from Arabia and taught them to worship only one God.

So this is the 'origin of Islam' , a new religion for Arabs as they came from polytheism or monotheism. We Muslims know this as the 'origin of Islam' .. Even Muslims believe that Muhammad (PBUH) didn't brought a new religion of its own as such but just 'restored' the true religion of Jesus , Moses , Abaraham , David etc ..
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

So what exactly is different about Origins of Islam from Islamic perspective and Origins of Islam from secular perspective?

Again , I will say that the real issue in hand is evolution of Islam and authenticity of Hadiths.

Or any one of you brother can make it clear for me ....

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Old 25-Apr-2012, 02:16 AM
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Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Thanks Auzer Ji

For me the key question is the extent to which Islam today reflects the teachings of the Prophet and the extent to which it has been moulded into something by ordinary humans

Hence to query the origins of Islam is valid. To query the evolution of Islam is also valid

How much of the Qu'ran is really word for word everything that was revealed to the Prophet?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38385

I think it is fair to say there are some questionable passages in the Scriptures. You know the ones I am talking about as they provide ammunition for anti-Islamists

Would the Prophet really have prescribed those passages?

I think not!
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Old 25-Apr-2012, 02:22 AM
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Re: New book on the origins of Islam

Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker9 View Post
Thanks Auzer Ji

For me the key question is the extent to which Islam today reflects the teachings of the Prophet and the extent to which it has been moulded into something by ordinary humans

Hence to query the origins of Islam is valid. To query the evolution of Islam is also valid

How much of the Qu'ran is really word for word everything that was revealed to the Prophet?

I think it is fair to say there are some questionable passages in the Scriptures. You know the ones I am talking about as they provide ammunition for anti-Islamists

Would the Prophet really have prescribed those passages?

I think not!
I think that traces of Muhammad's original teaching can be found most well-preserved in the earlier and shorter Meccan suras, than in most of the Medinan ones (with the exception of some portions of Sura Maryam and the stunningly beautiful Lamp parable)
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Old 25-Apr-2012, 06:40 AM
Auzer's Avatar Auzer Auzer is offline
 
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Re: New book on the origins of Islam

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seeker9 View Post
Thanks Auzer Ji

For me the key question is the extent to which Islam today reflects the teachings of the Prophet and the extent to which it has been moulded into something by ordinary humans
Well the Islam for over-whelming majority of Muslims is simply

1-Worship ONLY one God/Allah.
2- Muhammad is God's messenger
3- Pray.
4-Fast in Ramadhan.
5-Pay Zakkat
6- Lead your life in a good way.

Now this is what Islam is for average Muslims. Average believer doesn't go into deep in his religion. So it pretty much seems that Islam is what Prophet taught it to be.
Quote:
How much of the Qu'ran is really word for word everything that was revealed to the Prophet?

I think it is fair to say there are some questionable passages in the Scriptures. You know the ones I am talking about as they provide ammunition for anti-Islamists

Would the Prophet really have prescribed those passages?
Well change in Qur'an would've been difficult. Very difficult. The early believers memorized it word by word and they believed it to be word of God. The Hadiths however do not hold the same credibility. Also , those passages , when taken in historical context of that time period, seems perfectly alright , to me atleast.
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