My Interaction With Some Muslim Friends

passingby · #1 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 11:03 AM

Being born in a Sikh/punjabi environment and being acquainted with Baba Farid, Baba Shah Hussien, Baba Bulleh Shah and other sufis I had this idea in my mind that in the Pakistani Punjab the islam would be much similar to these teaching of sufism which are somewhat similar to Sikhism (from a liberal kind of view). Concepts like role of Guru/Murshid, and remembrance of the Divine seem to be hardly different to ones found in sikhism.
But recently I have had the chance to befriend some muslim friends from Pakistani Punjabi (about 3-4 of them) and I have made these observations:

1. These friends have very little knowledge of Sikhism. They have no idea about who Guru Nanak was or what latter Gurus preached or lived by.
2. They have not heard of words like Gurbani, Keertan, langar etc
3. They have no awareness of new age global spiritual movements or the new age teachers like J. Krishnamurti, or even modern ones like Echart Tolle or Thich Nhat Hanh. The modern day explosion of knowledge and understanding of general spirituality has not touched them. Zen, Tibetan or Vietnamese buddhism is unheard of. The nature of human mind which Gurbani talks about or which all the modern day spiritual teachers talks of, do not figure prominently in their talks about religion.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/islam/36673-my-interaction-with-some-muslim-friends.html
4. Their idea of religion is that of a Governor God whose laws have been delivered by the prophet. The idea of an omnipresent God who can be experienced here in this life is not mentioned by them.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36673
6. Benefits of meditation of various kind and their role in mental health, control of mind and development of some spiritual consciousness (I do not mean attainment of God or anything, just the simple things) are not mentioned by them.

I consider myself as a very open minded person and I did not expect myself to be shocked like this but I am, honestly speaking.
For me religion is about walking the path of developing a higher mind which ultimately 'experiences' whatever is being promised by the chosen religion. In my case it is about 'realisation' of the Omnipresent Creator, the Akal Purakh Waheguru. Whereas their is of living according to laws and rules and regulation and being rewarded for it in heavenly after life.
At least in two instances two separate people have cited superiority of Islam because of the fact that Islam provides right of divorce to a woman and the fact that marriage is a contract (the word contract was specifically used).
I feel that they believe and expect religion to be mainly a set of rules and regulations to live by. The spiritual practices, sadhna, cultivation of love for God and His Creation does not figure anywhere prominently.
In past few days these differences seem to disturb me a lot more than usual. I have lost my comfort level with them, at least in the area of religious talks.

Has anyone else experienced this in his/her circle of friends?

Note- All that I have said is based upon my personal interaction with just a few muslim friends. They may or may not represent the majority. I should also mention here that these people are my friends and they are good people. These thought expressed here are just about the differences in ideas about religion and spirituality.

Ambarsaria · #2 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 11:27 AM

Passingby ji from what little I know the following comments,

Quote:

Being born in a Sikh/punjabi environment and being acquainted with

........ Baba Farid, Baba Shah Hussien, Baba Bulleh Shah and other sufis I had this idea in my mind that in the Pakistani Punjab the islam would be much similar to these teaching of sufism which are somewhat similar to Sikhism (from a liberal kind of view).
Sufism is disdained in true islamic sense. These were rebel rousers against Islam and to a lesser degree against Hinduism. Not much different in some objectives from Sikhism. Hence some commonalities but they were not totally divorced to Islam.

In many ways as you mentioned the concept of marriage contract, it appears perhaps with little knowledge that I have that Islam is a rather straight forward quantitative religion.

You do so much good, there is reward. You do bad there is appropriate punishment. Spirituality is tackled more in terms of where you are going to land on a net-net basis. Being good will receive good after death and bad will get bad.

The overall rules, descriptions are pretty tight and well described leaving little room for mis-interpretation. Hence in a global sense it may appear less as a cozy/cozy and let us discuss life, God, spirituality as Sikhism does and some other religions do.

Just some thoughts and no offense intended and I stand corrected.

Thanks.

harry haller · #3 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 12:35 PM

The subject was raised in a previous thread that Islam and Christianity had many many more converts than sikhism, this post merely confirms what I have always thought.

Spartans, What is your Profession? - YouTube

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36673
I am sure there are spiritually inclined muslims and christians, but its a numbers game, the majority merely pay lip service to something they do not understand, we have the blood of men and women that fought and died so that we have this connection to waheguru, we know the sacrifices made so that can enjoy this connection, I think it makes for a greater desire to embrace everything that encapsulates sikhism
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36673

Please do not be hard on your friends, maybe in time they will graduate to asking 'why?' rather than 'how?', religion gives them what they need at this time, and that is fine, and should not be judged, your spirit begs to be satisfied with knowledge and information, be happy that you have such a spirit! some are not so lucky to be born with the fire that drives you to ask why, and some have no access to the answers that will eventually quench that fire and turn it into peace, love and understanding.

passingby · #4 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 19:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

Please do not be hard on your friends, maybe in time they will graduate to asking 'why?' rather than 'how?', religion gives them what they need at this time, and that is fine, and should not be judged

I am not being hard, I just got uncomfortably disturbed because I felt that there is a communicative gap, a huge one, and they are not 'getting' what I am saying when it comes to thoughts on spiritual living. That is why I shared my mental pain here at the forum.
I never argue on religion because as Baba Atar Singh Mastuana ji used to say, "only that person should lecture who does not have a desire to lecture". I don't want to agitate myself in an argument especially since I myself have not walked the path yet. It would a kind of hypocrisy.

Since past one year and especially in recent months I have listened to akhand patth recitation on laptop which I find to be very convenient way of connecting with Gurbani. I am overwhelmed at the repetitive descriptions of the spiritual mental states of a Gurmukh. It seems Gurbani makes it abundantly clear that Hari/Ram/AkalPurakh can be experienced in this very life and that a complete quantum jump, a completely out-of-the-ordinary transformation of our mind and body is very possible with Guru's Grace.
These view of mine came into sharp contrast when I interacted with my muslim friends.

harry haller · #5 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 19:53 PM

passingbyji,

Mind you, let us not be blinkered into thinking that this is a muslim issue, it is not, I have the same problem speaking to fellow sikhs

Ishna · #6 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 19:58 PM

Passingby ji

Please do slow down and play a while here at SPN (don't pass by just yet) - I'm enjoying your participation.

You might like to read the following resources about Sikhism and Sufism:
Posted by our very own Aman Singh Ji
Sufi and Sikh at SikhNet

Quote:

1. These friends have very little knowledge of Sikhism. They have no idea about who Guru Nanak was or what latter Gurus preached or lived by.

2. They have not heard of words like Gurbani, Keertan, langar etc

Not many people seem to know about Sikhi here in Australia, but I'm more suprised that Pakistanis wouldn't know about it! Then again, if you're not interested, why learn? I'm surrounded by Christians but I admit I don't know much about them or their religion.

Quote:

3. They have no awareness of new age global spiritual movements or the new age teachers like J. Krishnamurti, or even modern ones like Echart Tolle or Thich Nhat Hanh. The modern day explosion of knowledge and understanding of general spirituality has not touched them. Zen, Tibetan or Vietnamese buddhism is unheard of. The nature of human mind which Gurbani talks about or which all the modern day spiritual teachers talks of, do not figure prominently in their talks about religion.

Uh-oh... I have no idea about Krishnamurti... Echart Tolle, Thich Nhat Hanh... I've seen their books at the library I used to work at but never opened them... Haven't learned much about Buddhism... Maybe they believe they're found the truth for them, so why look for anything else?

Quote:

4. Their idea of religion is that of a Governor God whose laws have been delivered by the prophet. The idea of an omnipresent God who can be experienced here in this life is not mentioned by them.

Yep, I agree with your observation

Quote:

6. Benefits of meditation of various kind and their role in mental health, control of mind and development of some spiritual consciousness (I do not mean attainment of God or anything, just the simple things) are not mentioned by them.

You could try asking them about prayer, as prayer features incredibly strongly in Islam as I'm sure you're aware. They may meditate but not recognise it as meditation. I'm sure they have their spiritual practices / sadhana such as the 5 daily prayers.

I don't want to speak for Muslims, all I can speak of is my own experiences of religion. I think following the rules can be a spiritual activity in and of itself. It's very satisfying knowing what the rule is and following it. It's very demotivating knowing what the rule is and disobeying it.

From my observations as a lurker in a Muslim discussion forum, I've seen the ladies there take great pride in doing things to please Allah, for the sake of Allah. I don't see this as a particularly negative thing. They have a spiritual connection to the rules they follow. Quite remarkable.

I think what you might be experiencing is contact with people who aren't particularly interested in religion. Like my colleague at work. She's Christian, she sings in a choir, but try to have a spiritual conversation with her and she closes up like a clam. Like the evolution discussion I retold recently -- she wouldn't discuss the idea that whales may have evolved into the water from the land, she quite simply said God created them like that. It is disappointing that a dialogue can't even occur.

At the same time, we are so infatuated with Sikhi, it is hard to believe anyone can possibly get the same amount of joy from any other religion, but they do, so for them that is real.

passingby · #7 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 20:17 PM

Ishna ji you are right. I think I felt like this cos I met something contradictory to my expectations. Its a stupid over-reaction. Another proof of pettiness of mind.

passingby · #8 (**permalink**) 18-Aug-2011, 20:21 PM

Another realization for me. I need to inform myself more of Islam, first hand. All I have read uptil now is a biography of the Prophet last summer. I need to expose myself more to the modern day interpretations and thoughts.

Lee · #9 (**permalink**) 19-Aug-2011, 17:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by harry haller

passingbyji,

Mind you, let us not be blinkered into thinking that this is a muslim issue, it is not, I have the same problem speaking to fellow sikhs

Harry ji,

This is quite true for all faiths I think.

There is one absolute truth and many ways to realise it, I think the problem comes in individual interpretations of holy scriputre and religious dogma.

Guru Granth Sahib informs us of what we need to know, but I think that perhaps it may take a life time to understand what Guru ji is telling us.

Ulitmatly we can only walk the path and by Gods grace see where it leads us.