That's because we have Gurbani and they don't. Gurbani tells us that Guru is the Parabrahm. And absolutely everything derives from Him. The Unmanifest Uncreated is also manifest in all creation. Gurbani tells us that Shiv, Vishnu and Brahma are the supportive material structure and could not reach the limits of the unknowable uncreated and so were in bondage to the 3 gunas and duality. However, Gurbani aslo states the the infinite Supreme Parabrahm manifested Himself in the creation, in the Hindu devas, and in all that is.

ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਗ+ਵਿੰਦੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਹੈ ਨਾਨਕ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਭਾਈ ॥੪॥੧॥੮॥
gur govindh guovindh guroo hai naanak bhaedh n bhaaee ||4||1||8||
The Guru is God, and God is the Guru, O Nanak; there is no difference between the two, O Siblings of Destiny. ||4||1||8||

ਤਿਸੁ ਸਰਣਾਈ ਸਦਾ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥੧॥
this saranaaee sadhaa sukh paarabreham karathaar ||1||
In His Sanctuary there is eternal peace. He is the Supreme Lord God, the Creator. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 45

ਆਪੇ ਸੁਰਿ ਨਰ ਗਣ ਗੰਧਰਬਾ ਆਪੇ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ॥
aapae sur nar gan gandhharabaa aapae khatt dharasan kee baanee ||
He Himself is the angelic being, the heavenly herald, and the celestial singer. He Himself is the one who explains the six schools of philosophy.

ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਸੰਕਰ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਆਪੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅਕਥ ਕਹਾਣੀ ॥
aapae siv sankar mehaesaa aapae guramukh akathh kehaanee ||
He Himself is Shiva, Shankara and Mahaysh; He Himself is the Gurmukh, who speaks the Unspoken Speech.

ਆਪੇ ਜੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਭੋਗੀ ਆਪੇ ਸੰਨਿਆਸੀ ਫਿਰੈ ਬਿਬਾਣੀ ॥
aapae jogee aapae bhogee aapae sanniaasee firai bibaanee ||
He Himself is the Yogi, He Himself is the Sensual Enjoyer, and He Himself is the Sannyaasee, wandering through the wilderness.

ਆਪੈ ਨਾਲਿ ਗੋਸਟਿ ਆਪਿ ਉਪਦੇਸੈ ਆਪੇ ਸੁਘੜੁ ਸਰੂਪੁ ਸਿਆਣੀ ॥
aapai naal gosatt aap oupadhaesai aapae sugharr saroop siaanee ||
He discusses with Himself, and He teaches Himself; He Himself is discrete, graceful and wise.

ਆਪਣਾ ਚੋਜੁ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਸਭਨਾ ਜੀਆ ਕਾ ਹੈ ਜਾਣੀ ॥੧੨॥
aapanaa choj kar vaekhai aapae aapae sabhanaa jeeaa kaa hai jaanee ||12||
Staging His own play, He Himself watches it; He Himself is the Knower of all beings. ||12|
~SGGS Ji p. 553

ਕਾਲ ਹੀਨ ਕਲਾ ਸੰਜੁਗਤਿ ਅਕਾਲ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਦੇਸ ॥
Kaal hoon kalaa sanjugat(i) akaal purakh ades||
Thou art Dearthless, Almighty, Timeless Purasha and Countryless.

ਧਰਮ ਧਾਮ ਸੁ ਭਰਮ ਰਹਿਤ ਅਭੂਤ ਅਲਖ ਅਭੇਸ ॥
Dharam dhaam su bharam rahit abhoot alakh abhes||
Thou art the Abode of righteousness; Thou art Illusionless, Garbless, Incomprehensible and devoid of five elements.

ਅੰਗ ਰਾਗ ਨ ਰੰਗ ਜਾਕਹਿ ਜਾਤਿ ਪਾਤਿ ਨ ਨਾਮ ॥
Ang raag na rang jaakah(i) jaat(i) paat(i) na naam||
Thou art without body, without attachment, without colour, caste, lineage and name.

ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਦੁਸਟ ਭੰਜਨ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਦਾਇਕ ਕਾਮ ॥੮੪॥
Garab ganjan dusat bhanjan mukat(i) daaik kaam||84||
Thou art the Destroyer of ego, the vanquisher of tyrants and performer of works leading to salvation.

ਆਪ ਰੂਪ ਅਮੀਕ ਅਨ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਏਕ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਵਧੂਤ ॥
aap roop amook an-ustat(i) ek purakh avdhoot||
Thou art the Deepest and Indescribable Entity, the One unique ascetic Purusha.

ਗਰਬ ਗੰਜਨ ਸਰਬ ਭੰਜਨ ਆਦਿ ਰੂਪ ਅਸੂਤ ॥
Garab ganjan sarab bhanjan aadh roop asoot||
Thou, the Unborn Primal Entity, art the Destroyer of all egocentric people.

ਅੰਗ ਹੀਨ ਅਭੰਗ ਅਨਾਤਮ ਏਕ ਪੁਰਖ ਅਪਾਰ ॥
Ang hoon abhang anaatam ek purakh apaar||
Thou, the Boundless Purusha, art Limbless, Indestructible and without self.

ਸਰਬ ਲਾਇਕ ਸਰਬ ਘਾਇਕ ਸਰਬ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਤਿਪਾਰ ॥੮੫॥
Sarab laaik sarab ghaaik sarab ko pratipaar||85||
Thou art capable of doing everything, Thou Destroyest all and Sustainest all.

ਸਰਬ ਗੰਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਹੰਤਾ ਸਰਬ ਤੇ ਅਨਭੇਖ ॥
Sarab gantaa sarab hanta sarab te anbhekh||
Thou knowest all, Destroyest all and art beyond all the guises.

ਸਰਬ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਨ ਜਾਨਹੀ ਜਿਂਹ ਰੂਪ ਰੰਗੁ ਅਰੁ ਰੇਖ ॥
Sarab Saastra na jaan-hi jinh roop rang(u) ar(u) rekh||
Thy form, colour and marks are not known to all the Scriptures.

ਪਰਮ ਬੇਦ ਪੁਰਾਣ ਜਾਕਹਿ ਨੇਤ ਭਾਖਤ ਨਿੱਤ ॥
Param Bed Puraan jaakah(i) net bhaakhat nitt||
The Vedas and the Puransa always declare Thee the Supreme and the Greatest.

ਕੋਟਿ ਸਿੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਪੁਰਾਨ ਸਾਸਤ੍ਰ ਨ ਆਵਈ ਵਹੁ ਚਿੱਤਿ ॥੮੬॥
Kottee Sinmrit Puraan na aavaoo vahu chitt(i)||86||
None can comprehend thee completely through millions of Smritis, Puranas and Shastras.
~DAsam Granth Sahib Ji p. 15

ਸੰਜੋਗੁ ਵਿਜੋਗੁ ਉਪਾਇਓਨੁ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟੀ ਕਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ॥
sanjog vijog oupaaeioun srisattee kaa mool rachaaeiaa ||
Creating union and separation, He laid the foundations of the Universe.

ਹੁਕਮੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਾਜੀਅਨੁ ਜੋਤੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਮਿਲਾਇਆ ॥
hukamee srisatt saajeean jothee joth milaaeiaa ||
By His Command, the Lord of Light fashioned the Universe, and infused His Divine Light into it.

ਜੋਤੀ ਹੂੰ ਸਭੁ ਚਾਨਣਾ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਸੁਣਾਇਆ ॥
jothee hoon sabh chaananaa sathigur sabadh sunaaeiaa ||
From the Lord of Light, all light originates. The True Guru proclaims the Word of the Shabad.

ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸੁ ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਸਿਰਿ ਧੰਧੈ ਲਾਇਆ ॥
brehamaa bisan mehaes thrai gun sir dhhandhhai laaeiaa ||
Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, under the influence of the three dispositions, were put to their tasks.

ਮਾਇਆ ਕਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਓਨੁ ਤੁਰੀਆ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੨॥
maaeiaa kaa mool rachaaeioun thureeaa sukh paaeiaa ||2||
He created the root of Maya, and the peace obtained in the fourth state of consciousness. ||2
~SGGS Ji p. 509

ਕਾਇਆ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਬਿਸਨੁ ਮਹੇਸਾ ਸਭ ਓਪਤਿ ਜਿਤੁ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥
kaaeiaa andhar brehamaa bisan mehaesaa sabh oupath jith sansaaraa ||
Within the body, are Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva, from whom the whole world emanated.

ਸਚੈ ਆਪਣਾ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਆ ਆਵਾ ਗਉਣੁ ਪਾਸਾਰਾ ॥
sachai aapanaa khael rachaaeiaa aavaa goun paasaaraa ||
The True Lord has staged and contrived His own play; the expanse of the Universe comes and goes.

ਪੂਰੈ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ਸਚਿ ਨਾਮਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੭॥
poorai sathigur aap dhikhaaeiaa sach naam nisathaaraa ||7||
The Perfect True Guru Himself has made it clear, that emancipation comes through the True Name. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 754

The quote you gave about Krishan clearly says that it was attributed to GOD, not Krishna who shows promiscuous behavior in Bindravan regardless of the spellings.
The pauri precisely states that the God was in the form of Krishna who is recognized in Gurbani as an avataar (manifestation/incarnation/ descending of the God to earth) for that particular age. Can their be any disagreement? We know that Gurbani also corrects that all the major Hindu devas fell into Maya. I agree with you completely, that when Krishna as an avtar spoke from God-consciousness in Bhagavad-Gita it was not as personality of Krishna. But Gurbani clearly states that:
As a Gursikh Bhain ji, you understand that Akaalpurakh(GOD) is known as inexpressible. In the past people explained HIM but couldn’t due to HIS infinite nature. This idea is very dominant in Jap Ji. Strictly defining HIM, Guru ji expresses HIS being “only one reality from the beginning to forever (eternal Truth), beyond birth and death that makes it very clear that HIS being in incarnation as an individual is impossible. Now come to other form about which Gurbani states. It is known as “sargun” form. In simple words HE is every where. Question rises, how HE can be in form when HE is beyond “birth” Take a deep breath and think, “how is it possible?” Guru Answers it” kehna kathn n jayee”(He cannot be expressed). If so, why even Guru ji trying to express? If we converse with astronaut about all cosmos, planets and galaxies, he/she just tries to interpret what is known and leave his/her lame answer with a tag” we have to find more, there is lot up there”. Guru ji shares what he could express but also warn us about a fact of HIS infinity. “sargun” form is through which He is experienced. In simple words” within ourselves and in others””tu bharpoor janya me dur( I thought- it was my limited understanding- that you are far away but I found you very close, every where). So calling any one God as per Guru declaration is a betrayal to HIM, respecting all His expressions or sargun form is honor to Him. Avtar, literally means to take birth, some are just stuck with the word and think, its meaning is not to take birth but Prophet since HE himself came through these Avtaras. If HE comes through them and is taken over by Maya, lust etc, what is the difference between others and Him, now he is seen(like Krishna) also involved like others in Maya. Gurbani says who involves in HIM totally becomes like HIM(GGS Ji 397 Asa Mehla 5). Question rises if He is already there then why only by getting involved in Him one can become like HIM. Answer is very simple. The person totally lost in HIM becomes different from others as HE is, but in a body that person represents Him as completely indifferent to Maya. In this context Guru ji becomes like HIM but Guru ji is not avtar like Krishna who involves in promiscuous activities. Guru ji is one through whom HE is seen. If Krishna is sargun form, so you are, and Babas, Sant, other cult leaders. Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya, that is not the case with either Ram( who sends away his wife to Jungle just because a washer man says” I am not like Ram, I shall keep a woman who lived in another mans’ house for that long”, Krishna keeps satisfying his promiscuous urges with ladies. For Sikhs, they are revered Devtas of Hindus and we respect that, it is O.K. but they cannot be inspiration for Sikhs. I strongly say, regardless of their references, even as Sargun form of HIM, they are not helpful as most of His other sargun form is not. This idea to make any kind of link to our Guru ji or Gurbachan is silly and uncalled for.

ਆਪੇਗੋਪੀਕਾਨੁਹੈਪਿਆਰਾਬਨਿਆਪੇਗਊਚਰਾਹਾ॥
aapae gopee kaan hai piaaraa ban aapae goo charaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the milk-maid and Krishna; He Himself herds the cows in the woods.
ਆਪੇਸਾਵਲਸੁੰਦਰਾਪਿਆਰਾਆਪੇਵੰਸੁਵਜਾਹਾ॥
aapae saaval sundharaa piaaraa aapae vans vajaahaa ||
The Beloved Himself is the blue-skinned, handsome one; He Himself plays on His flute.
ਕੁਵਲੀਆਪੀੜੁਆਪਿਮਰਾਇਦਾਪਿਆਰਾਕਰਿਬਾਲਕਰੂਪਿਪਚਾਹਾ॥੨॥
kuvaleeaa peerr aap maraaeidhaa piaaraa kar baalak roop pachaahaa ||2||
The Beloved Himself took the form of a child, and destroyed Kuwalia-peer, the mad elephant. ||2||
Only His Sargun sroop is expressed in the above quote just as “ ghat ghat riha smaee, nothing more. Why even you are quoting it.

. But even Gurbani clearly states in many pauris that vaishnav bhagkti and bhairaag are the way to approach the Supreme.
Bhain ji, I suspect here confusion. There is only one way as per Guru Vaak I quoted yesterday, without Guru Shabad, there is no other way, I am not even interested in this kind of thing to enrich my knowledge, its silly.
Clearly there are elements of truth and profound symbolism behind these alleged "stories" which relate to the very nature of Sikh theology.
Bhain ji what is the symbol behind cutting head of Ravan? Guru ji in that context simply saying it is all HIS Ordinance, period. What is the symbol of “rang”(enjoyment) in Bindravan? Simply Guru ji is saying the the guy was enjoying with the ladies. What is the symbol behind” Ram roya…(Cry)” Guru ji simply saying Ram even couldn’t understand Ordinance of God, he was crying like every body over wife and brother. Just see above, all credit is given to HIM instead of any mortal. If that much immense love you harbor in your heart for HIM, only then you will get over the illusions of Sargun Sroop Avtar or Devta thing. Let me put another example to clear why I do not want to give any importance to them in context of Gumat. Assume you are sitting in a Bus chartered for Dasm Duar. While sitting, you pay attention to all around Maya temptations and exceptional leaders and others who are attracting you. Bus goes on if you don’t pay attention to other than your Guru advice and HIM; however, it has to stop if you desire to check out all attractive Maya Sroop. Walking on Guru Panth and keeping nostalgia for ancient wisdom (which actually was used to corrupt the society for centuries) will not lead you any where, for academic boasting, it sounds nice.. Single-minded attention is not achieved by paying so much significance to all that which as per Guru couldn’t even helpful to achieve Him.

I object to the assumption that anything in Gurbani is intrinsically devoid of reality or
symbolically untrue or mere historic curiosity simply because we do not understand. I am of the conviction that entire Gurbani is revealed, Divine, and supernatural truth which penetrates mysteries of the nirgun and sargun aspects of the Parabrahm Vaheguru. Gurbani brings into sansaaric realm hyperdimensional realities even beyond comprehension of a human brain. We do our best to understand, but Guru perceives what we cannot. And so I show respect for entire Gurbani as Living, true and real, even what I cannot grasp.
You are displaying confused ideas about people who are in disagreement with you. We just want to stick to our Guru, why you are throwing others on us as His Sargun Sroop to give any consideration. For me, past sargun sroop of GOD is dead, better it is dead, just because Guru ji tried take people to the Main Source, Hindus became enemy of Guru ji and you are telling us to reconsider those so called Avtar. There is book in Punjabi, published by SGPC written by Sankrit genius pandit who converted to Sikhism, he openly says that Sikhs should only follow Guru Granth Sahib Ji and there is nothing to learn from Vedas, puranas or other Devtas. The ones who themselves were intoxicated by Maya, what would they teach us. I shall give you name of the writer; it is with me sitting some where in my book selection. Vedic Aryans were deeply involved in human sacrifices and obscenity( Naramedhayaana Yujar Veda Samita, check out Atharva Veda x7 Please read Dr. Ambedkar on this ancient Vedas,) your eyes will be opened regarding Veda Wisdom.

Descriptions of the Mahadevas are not said to be mythology, but reality. I would find it completely offensive as a Sikh, if a Hindu was posting that stories of Guru in Gurbani were all legends and untrue. It would be showing the heighth of disrespect for our sentiments. And for this reason I request that the title be changed to something less dismissive and disrespectful to:"Hindu symbolism"
First of all, I already wrote above, Hindu Symbolism is not all we discuss about Hinduism. If they say our Janamsakhi are mythology, I wouldn’t feel offended. We are not interested to dig down if those were Historical or not. Every thing referred in GGS Ji is not verified by Guru ji as Historical. Guru ji referred about Yugas but concludes that only that time is good when His Nam Simran is done. Please don’t bring now Yuga discussion, I just refer it as references Guru ji gave but has not specifically verified as Historical truth about them.



Ham Hindu Nahin" The damage is done. I feel more damage doers are those who keep making link with all this stuff. Their argument is" Why it is there?" There are other references are too. But they dont listen. Even Bhagatas wrote against this, read a shabad by Namdev who directly talks about these stories. But they are programmed.and wont listen and realize the reality Then Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh ji are directly related to Hindu stories- characters. Were they real? Or myth? It is not our problem to check it out.
Just because elements of Vaishnav philosophy exist in Gurbani doesn't make Sikhism into Hinduism, that is a political construct to deny independance and nationhood. Apart
from the political sphere, how can anything written in Gurbani be disregarded as "not for us" or as "myth and untrue?"
You once wrote splitting hair; actually you are very good at it. When I say, they are not for us, I just meant they are not promoted by Gurbani as something to enlighten our minds. About myth, I wrote before how this word is justified to be used with some imaginative events, but you keep saying it is true, so it be, please save my time from answering the same thing again and again. There is no element of any thing in Gurbani, it’s revealed,( You admit that) if it resembles with some thing, so what!

If it is in Gurbani, there is a deep meaning for us to perceive. For example, how many threads and discussions have centered around, "Are the Guru's (One Jyot) God? And theologically we can't even begin to understand this if we disregard the pauris relating to traditional Vaishnav philosophy of Avtaars and the Primal absolute (nirgun and sargun Parabrahm). To eliminate this point of the Gurbani because you think it "makes Sikhs into Hindus" renders the Sikh community incapable of understanding the nature of Guru, was He 10 bodies of men, or God the Uncreated, or God-conscious avatar?
Bhain in Punjab, if they listen to your praise about Devtas, Vedas< mahadeva, Krishnas, they will start going to Mandir again. Hinduas will love you to promote their agenda” Sikhism is off shoot of Hindu” Today, many of the Sikhs( Save for Amritdharis, if I am right but not sure) worship Devis for quick rewards( thanks to those Sikhs who have Hindu hang over)This is the way your views appear, a complete devoted Hindu who just happen to be a Sikh. I wonder, after learning so much, why you are so adamant about this fact. You were so much intoxicated with these views that you said” Japji is not totality of Gurbani” Calling Krishan as incarnation of God, being praised by Gurus as Avtars( Gurbani means Gurus). It doesn’t show that you have clear mind for Nanak panth. I smell from your behavior Bhain ji, old Mahant group who were half Hindu and Half Sikh, technically confused guys. Please don’t take it as I am saying to you, only your views are my target.

Clearly He was not the physical body, so we do not worship His manhood like an idol. Clearly He was not the Uncreated Parabrahm. And just as clearly, He was a Divine being descended into the sansaara who could speak from God-consciousness. And this explains the Divine nature of the shabad. It comes from higher dimensional realm of reality. And the thing is, to discuss concepts from higher levels of reality, the human brain is insufficient to digest. That is why symbolic mathematical physics is required to grasp and comprehend the superior dimensional realities. So we know from science that symbolism, and mythology are used to explain profoundly deep truths which are counterintuitive to the human intellect. This is why I cannot dismiss outright any story, however outlandish, without analyzing what the symbolism must be. For example:


ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਰਵਿਰਹੇਸਿਵਸਕਤੀਕਾਮੇਲੁ॥
jeh dhaekhaa theh rav rehae siv sakathee kaa mael ||
Wherever I look, I see the Lord pervading there, in the union of Shiva and Shakti, of
consciousness and matter.
Do you mean Shiv Shakti is any thing to do with Shiv ji? If yes, please reconsider translation, it is horrible. I would recommend you not to quote Gurbani because everytime I read it, I feel stunned to see what happened to Gurbani understanding. Waheguru ang sang! I recommend you to ignore Sant Singh Khalsa and use Manmohan Singh, is better than him to understand if not perfect.
ਤ੍ਰਿਹੁਗੁਣਬੰਧੀਦੇਹੁਰੀਜੋਆਇਆਜਗਿਸੋਖੇਲੁ॥
thrihu gun bandhhee dhaehuree jo aaeiaa jag so khael ||
The three qualities hold the body in bondage; whoever comes into the world is subject to their play.
~SGGS Ji p. 21
As the above passage describes duality, how the opposition of energy fields is necessary to express material experience, it shows how there would be no foundation of matter without duality. There would be no material existence. Shiva and Shakti represent symbolic dimensional structure but also conscious aliveness at the heart of matter. Conscious energy. God is conscious in the energy. We can't make artificial divisions based in dualistic misunderstanding that Shiv is NOT Parabrahm, and therefore not God. In this aspect, both Shiva and Shakti are derivitives of the One generative potential. The Parabrahm is manifest in the creation by the conscious awareness of Shiva and Shakti pervading within it. This is only the dimensional unfolding of how creation works. And it's not mythology. It's symbolic of real processes which can be explained by science.
I already commented on it, you are singing the same tune, known as mixing up
Look at the Gurbani again:
ਉਛਲਿਆਕਾਮੁਕਾਲਮਤਿਲਾਗੀਤਉਆਨਿਸਕਤਿਗਲਿਬਾਂਧਿਆ॥੨॥
oushhaliaa kaam kaal math laagee tho aan sakath gal baandhhiaa ||2||
You are overflowing with sexual desire, and your intellect is stained with darkness; you are held in the grip of Shakti's power. ||2||
~SGGS Ji p. 93
So we shouldn't be offended by these kinds of references.
What other word Guru ji should have used to express Lust? Krishna’s acts were promiscuous, lust(KAAM) is very appropriate, how can you even compare it with Krishna act in context of offending any one. Some time too much knowledge leads to confusion, it is still time to follow nothing but Guru’s shown path to be worthy of HIM.
They are illustrating for us the nature of material existence and explaining the weaknesses at the core of our being which are related to existence in sansaaric world and human nature. The goal of course is how to transcend these limitations and bondage. Jesus is like an avatar which has some parallel to Krishna (Krystos-Christ)
You are saying that? I am surprised, comparing Jesus with Maya ridden Krishna!!!
.

And do living things evolve over the God. But because truth never contradicts, those elements which were truth in past ages don't become untruths in this one.
You have read them, you have found them very useful, congratulation, for me, all are just mere references, it will be wastage my time in studying Vedas and others you call ancient truth. Here understanding of Gurbani as per true Guru message,
seems hard, and you are talking about other books. All the same, you call Gurbani perfect, that idea of yours erases other books significance. In simple language, contradiction, see the zigzag” They are good ancient wisdom but Gurbani is better, means stick to better.” Guess what Bhain ji? I agree hundred percent

quot However, Gurbani aslo states the the infinite Supreme Parabrahm manifested Himself in the creation, in the Hindu devas, and in all that is.
Yes Bhain ji, but they are just as you are and I am and the rest of world as His Sargun Form, nothing more than that, Gurmat stops here, never cares to verify their Historical facts, does not advocate that they were of any significance in context of " spiritual goal", obviously who drowns whom he/she can save?

__________________
HAR bisrat sda khuari Mehla 5
pk70

God can be betrayed? Even the word God we are speaking now cannot touch the reality. Is some little mataji who prays sincerely to Krishan betraying the reality of God?

ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||
Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 174

It is true, Gurbani says:

ਜੁਜ ਮਹਿ ਜੋਰਿ ਛਲੀ ਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਜਾਦਮੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁ ਗੋਪੀ ਲੈ ਆਇਆ ਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨ ਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁ ਕੀਆ ॥
paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bindhraaban mehi rang keeaa ||
He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

ਕਲਿ ਮਹਿ ਬੇਦੁ ਅਥਰਬਣੁ ਹੂਆ ਨਾਉ ਖੁਦਾਈ ਅਲਹੁ ਭਇਆ ॥
kal mehi baedh athharaban hooaa naao khudhaaee alahu bhaeiaa ||
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
~sggs jI P. 470

You say, "Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya. Liberation cannot be obtained from someone defeated by Maya. But you are talking quality of spiritual goodness as if there is no deva, no avatar, no religion of the past had any spiritual goodness. Yet, is that what Gurbani means when it says:

ਦੀਨਾ ਦੀਨ ਦਇਆਲ ਭਏ ਹੈ ਜਿਉ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਿਦਰ ਘਰਿ ਆਇਆ ॥
dheenaa dheen dhaeiaal bheae hai jio kirasan bidhar ghar aaeiaa ||
God is Merciful to the meekest of the meek; Krishna came to the house of Bidar, a devotee of low social status.

ਮਿਲਿਓ ਸੁਦਾਮਾ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਧਾਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਗੈ ਦਾਲਦੁ ਭੰਜਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੪॥
miliou sudhaamaa bhaavanee dhhaar sabh kishh aagai dhaaladh bhanj samaaeiaa ||4||
Sudama loved God, who came to meet him; God sent everything to his home, and ended his poverty. ||4||
~SGGS Ji p. 1191

ਜਿਨ ਤੂ ਜਪਿਓ ਤੇਈ ਜਨ ਨੀਕੇ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਤਿਅਹੁ ਕਉ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
jin thoo japiou thaeee jan neekae har japathiahu ko sukh paavaigo ||
Those humble beings who meditate on You are noble and exalted. Meditating on the Lord, they are at peace.

ਬਿਦਰ ਦਾਸੀ ਸੁਤੁ ਛੋਕ ਛੋਹਰਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਅੰਕਿ ਗਲਿ ਲਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੨॥
bidhar dhaasee suth shhok shhoharaa kirasan ank gal laavaigo ||2||
Bidur, the son of a slave-girl, was an untouchable, but Krishna hugged him close in His Embrace. ||2||

ਜਲ ਤੇ ਓਪਤਿ ਭਈ ਹੈ ਕਾਸਟ ਕਾਸਟ ਅੰਗਿ ਤਰਾਵੈਗੋ ॥
jal thae oupath bhee hai kaasatt kaasatt ang tharaavaigo ||
Wood is produced from water, but by holding onto wood, one is saved from drowning.

ਰਾਮ ਜਨਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਸਵਾਰੇ ਅਪਨਾ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਰਖਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੩॥
raam janaa har aap savaarae apanaa biradh rakhaavaigo ||3||
The Lord Himself embellishes and exalts His humble servants; He confirms His Innate Nature. ||3||
~SGGS Ji p. 1309

ਕਿਸੁ ਜਾਤਿ ਤੇ ਕਿਹ ਪਦਹਿ ਅਮਰਿਓ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਬਿਸੇਖ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
kis jaath thae kih padhehi amariou raam bhagath bisaekh ||1|| rehaao ||
From such a low social status, what a high status he obtained! Devotional worship to the Lord is sublime! ||1||Pause||

ਸੁਆਨ ਸਤ੍ਰੁ ਅਜਾਤੁ ਸਭ ਤੇ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਲਾਵੈ ਹੇਤੁ ॥
suaan sathra ajaath sabh thae kirasa laavai haeth ||
The killer of dogs, the lowest of all, was lovingly embraced by Krishna.

ਲੋਗੁ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕਿਆ ਸਰਾਹੈ ਤੀਨਿ ਲੋਕ ਪ੍ਰਵੇਸ ॥੨॥
log bapuraa kiaa saraahai theen lok pravaes ||2||
See how the poor people praise him! His praise extends throughout the three worlds. ||2
~SGGS Ji p. 1124

To say that God could not manifest in Krishna is same as saying no one in the world, in any past age, in any other religion could have God except for Sikhs. This is talking like Muslims. And it is not what Gurbani says. Gurbani says the world cannot have liberation without Guruji's Naam. This is true. But you are implying these people don't have God. That isn't what Gurbani is saying. Gurbani says God manifested through the Hindu devas, and is named Allah, depending on the age. Or are you suggesting the monotheism of the West is true, so Vaheguru is manifest as Allah and the unameable Jewish God YHWH, but not through Hindu devas which Gurbani uses to call for names of God, Ram, Gobind? With this Islamic logic, do you reject also the God of Christians which is NOT a monotheistic One, but a Trinity including a Divine human incarnation as Jesus? Or, do you accept that a manifestation of the Parabrahm exists in the world, but the most complete manifestation which can liberate even the Hindu devas in age of Kalyug is the Guru?

Clearly Guru is higher than Krishna. Guru has accomplished more than any Hindu deva, and still people say Guru is only an ordinary human, or a prophet. How can this be? Sikhs are not told anywhere to worship Krishna. It is Sikh dharam to go directly to the source, Parabrahm, Vaheguru. But how can Sikhs deny that Parabrahm was also manifest in Krishna if that is what Gurbani says? That is not to say, as Vaishanvs say, that Krishna is the Parabrahm. We do not say that. But, according to Gurbani, that the Parabrahm manifested through Krishna for the age of Dwapar Yug and Now the Parabrahm is given directly to the Guru's Sikhs in form of the Shabad. I think it is clear Gurbani is also showing respect for Krishna and acknowledging him as an avatar, manifestation of God for the age.

If not, can you please explain the following shabad?

ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨ ਦਾਮੋਦਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ॥
madhhusoodhan dhaamodhar suaamee ||
He is the Slayer of demons, our Supreme Lord and Master.

ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਵਰਧਨ ਧਾਰੀ ਮੁਰਲੀ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥੧॥
rikheekaes govaradhhan dhhaaree muralee manohar har rangaa ||1||
The Supreme Rishi, the Master of the sensory organs, the uplifter of mountains, the joyful Lord playing His enticing flute. ||1||

ਮੋਹਨ ਮਾਧਵ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ੍ਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
mohan maadhhav kirasa muraarae ||
The Enticer of Hearts, the Lord of wealth, Krishna, the Enemy of ego.

ਜਗਦੀਸੁਰ ਹਰਿ ਜੀਉ ਅਸੁਰ ਸੰਘਾਰੇ ॥
jagadheesur har jeeo asur sanghaarae ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Dear Lord, the Destroyer of demons.

ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਅਬਿਨਾਸੀ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਵਾਸੀ ਹੈ ਸੰਗਾ ॥੨॥
jagajeevan abinaasee thaakur ghatt ghatt vaasee hai sangaa ||2||
The Life of the World, our eternal and ever-stable Lord and Master dwells within each and every heart, and is always with us. ||2||

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.

ਬਨਵਾਲੀ ਚਕ੍ਰਪਾਣਿ ਦਰਸਿ ਅਨੂਪਿਆ ॥
banavaalee chakrapaan dharas anoopiaa ||
Adorned with flowers, holding the chakra in Your hand, Your form is incomparably beautiful.

ਸਹਸ ਨੇਤ੍ਰ ਮੂਰਤਿ ਹੈ ਸਹਸਾ ਇਕੁ ਦਾਤਾ ਸਭ ਹੈ ਮੰਗਾ ॥੪॥
sehas naethr moorath hai sehasaa eik dhaathaa sabh hai mangaa ||4||
You have thousands of eyes, and thousands of forms. You alone are the Giver, and all are beggars of You. ||4||

ਭਗਤਿ ਵਛਲੁ ਅਨਾਥਹ ਨਾਥੇ ॥
bhagath vashhal anaathheh naathhae ||
You are the Lover of Your devotees, the Master of the masterless.

ਗੋਪੀ ਨਾਥੁ ਸਗਲ ਹੈ ਸਾਥੇ ॥
gopee naathh sagal hai saathhae ||
The Lord and Master of the milk-maids, You are the companion of all.

ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਦਾਤੇ ਬਰਨਿ ਨ ਸਾਕਉ ਗੁਣ ਅੰਗਾ ॥੫॥
baasudhaev niranjan dhaathae baran n saako gun angaa ||5||
O Lord, Immacuate Great Giver, I cannot describe even an iota of Your Glorious Virtues. ||5

ਮੁਕੰਦ ਮਨੋਹਰ ਲਖਮੀ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
mukandh manohar lakhamee naaraaein ||
Liberator, Enticing Lord, Lord of Lakshmi, Supreme Lord God.

ਦ੍ਰੋਪਤੀ ਲਜਾ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਉਧਾਰਣ ॥
dhropathee lajaa nivaar oudhhaaran ||
Savior of Dropadi's honor.

ਕਮਲਾਕੰਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਕੰਤੂਹਲ ਅਨਦ ਬਿਨੋਦੀ ਨਿਹਸੰਗਾ ॥੬॥
kamalaakanth karehi kanthoohal anadh binodhee nihasangaa ||6||
Lord of Maya, miracle-worker, absorbed in delightful play, unattached. ||6||

ਅਮੋਘ ਦਰਸਨ ਆਜੂਨੀ ਸੰਭਉ ॥
amogh dharasan aajoonee sanbho ||
The Blessed Vision of His Darshan is fruitful and rewarding; He is not born, He is self-existent.
~SGGS JI p. 1082

1. If Krishna is in sargun form so are you is something I already said. However, the diference between you and Krishna is that he is an avtar. As an avtar he is recognized as a deva, a being higher than an ordinary man, who descends to the lower sansaaric level for the purpose of being a light in the world. So consider the age when Krishna was appearing, do you think krishna and whole of Bhagavad-Gita are worthless and have no light of God because Krishna was also caught by Maya? Does this make Krishna of the same level as some pakhandi baba? If a quality of an avtar is descent from God, and the ability to be in state of God-consciousness, than in that frame an avtar is NOT in Maya, and not speaking from personality of incarnation, but of the God Himself.

ਤੀਨਿ ਤਿਲੋਕ ਸਮਾਧਿ ਪਲੋਵੈ ॥
theen thilok samaadhh palovai ||
The three qualities and the three worlds vanish, in the state of Samaadhi.
~SGGS Ji p. 974

Gurbani says the Parabrahm manifested in the physical reality. The very process of manifesting in the 3 gunas and duality gives rise to Maya. The power of the Parabrahm is diffused when it enters into materiality. So Gurbani isn't saying the avataras were fake or did not have manifestation of Parabrahm for the age. Gurbani is saying the God's power comes under influence of Maya, because Maya is an element of the physical dimension, which is what Parabrahm Nirankaar has Himself created! He created reality this way! God is not trying to alter the creation, it serves a purpose. The Maya and the gunas are a property of deliberate design! Only the Shabad is free of Maya in the sansaara. And this is something new from any previous age and required because the 4 legs of religion were lost in Kalyug.

ਆਪੇ ਕਾਰਣੁ ਕੀਆ ਅਪਰੰਪਰਿ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰੋ ਕੀਆ ਕਮਾਇਦਾ ॥੧੦॥
aapae kaaran keeaa aparanpar sabh thaero keeaa kamaaeidhaa ||10||
The Infinite Lord Himself created the creation. Everyone acts as You make them act, Lord. ||10

ਰਜ ਤਮ ਸਤ ਕਲ ਤੇਰੀ ਛਾਇਆ ॥
raj tham sath kal thaeree shhaaeiaa ||
Your Power is diffused through the three gunas: raajas, taamas and satva.
~SGGS Ji p. 1038

ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥
saragun niragun nirankaar sunn samaadhhee aap ||
He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi.

ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥
aapan keeaa naanakaa aapae hee fir jaap ||1||
Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||
~SGGS Ji p. 290

Avtar is still meaning avtar. Not just incarnated and born, but, incarnation of the Jyot of God coming into sansaara from very high level of reality. Gurbani clearly recognizes Krishan as a deva. So an avtar is not like a prophet who is fully human, but God gives a message to that prophet and he testifies the message God gives him. In this we see Guruji is an avtar, not a prophet, or Gurbani would be saying Guru is a prophet not an avtar. As a prophet, Guruji would be fully human and ignorant. But God would give him a message which he should testify to the world. This is not what Gurbani says. It says Guru is merged in the Jyot and has God-consciousness. Guru Himself, in that state of merging does not speak as an ordinary human.

The thing is we are also seeing Gurbani say Krishna is an avtar. Since he preceded Guruji, he is less than Guruji in the sense that Guru is a more complete manifestation of the Jyot of Vaheguru which was necessary for age of Kaliyug. Is there some other way you can explain this pauri?

ਸਤਜੁਗਿ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਛਲਿਓ ਬਲਿ ਬਾਵਨ ਭਾਇਓ ॥
sathajug thai maaniou shhaliou bal baavan bhaaeiou ||
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, You were pleased to deceive Baal the king, in the form of a dwarf.

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਗੁਰੂ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਬਿਚਲੁ ਅਟਲੁ ਆਦਿ ਪੁਰਖਿ ਫੁਰਮਾਇਓ ॥੭॥
sree guroo raaj abichal attal aadh purakh furamaaeiou ||7||
The sovereign rule of the Great Guru is unchanging and permanent, according the Command of the Primal Lord God. ||7||
~SGGS Ji p. 1390

ਕਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਧੂ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ਸਾ ਚੜਿਆ ਰੈ ਭਾਣੁ ॥
kal vich dhhoo andhhaar saa charriaa rai bhaan ||
In this Dark Age of Kali Yuga, there was only pitch darkness. Then, He rose like the sun to illuminate the darkness.
~SGGS Ji p. 968

So on one level, it is true Krishan is not equal to Guru because Gurbani says all these devas fall at Guru's feet. However, as you pointed out,

Veerji, as I pointed out the very process of descending into the sansaara gives rise to Maya. And for this reason, in this age, all avataars and devas are insufficient. So the Parabrahm Himself descended as the Shabad.

There are many levels to God-consciousness as there are levels of reality or dimensions. Beyond even the dimensions is the infinity of nothingness which is described as nirguna. Only Guruji has perceived them all. Only Guru has gone to the infinite depth of the nirgun. But the discussion is not whether Krishna speaking from God-consciousness for Dwapara Yug takes something away from Guruji or threatens the Sikh identity. Clearly the Sikh identity is in Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Whatever is expressed there is from Guru. So it is Sikh. There are many schools of thought in Hinduism. And all of them contrast in some way with Sikh teaching. Krishan isn't important to a Sikh. We don't meditate on Hindu devas or scriptures. But the discussion was expressed that a Sikh can't tolerate Krishna's declaration of being the God. I don't see this disqualification of Hindu religion in Gurbani. It fulfilled a certain role for a certain age and was a manifestation of the God. I don't see where a Sikh can't tolerate anything. We have Gurbani. Nothing is a threat to us. Krishna is not for us the Primal Absolute. But equally, Krishan appears to be recognized as an avtar in Gurbani with God-consciousness so that Narayan was speaking through him. If this interpretation is incorrect, and not to mention the many places in Dasam Granth which relates story of Krishanavtaar including where his mother perceived him to be God incarnate? If this is so unaaceptable, why didn't Guruji modify Dasam Granth bani to reflect that Krishan was not a manifestation of God, only thinking he was mistakenly? Even Bhai Gurdas Ji says this:

ਕਿਸਨ ਲੈਆ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਜਗਿ ਮਹਮਾ ਦਸਮ ਸਕੰਧੁ ਵਖਾਣੈ ।
kisan|aiaa avataaru jagi mahamaa dasam sakandhu vakhaanai|
The tenth chapter of the Bhagavat defines the glory of incarnation of Krsna in the world.

ਲੀਲਾ ਚਲਤ ਅਚਰਜ ਕਰਿ ਜੋਗੁ ਭੋਗੁ ਰਸ ਰਲੀਆ ਮਾਣੈ ।
leelaa chalat acharaj kari jogu bhogu ras raleeaa maanai|
He performed many wonderful acts of bhog (merriment) and yoga (renunciation).

ਮਹਾ ਭਾਰਥੁ ਕਰਵਾਇਓਨੁ ਕੈਰੋ ਪਾਂਡੋ ਕਰਿ ਹੈਰਾਣੈ ।
mahaa bhaaradu karavaaiaonu kairo paando kari hairaanai|
Making Kauravs (sons of Dhrttrastr) and Pandays to fight against each other he further made them wonder struck.

ਇੰਦ੍ਰਾਦਿਕ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਿਤਿ ਮਿਰਜਾਦ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ।
indraadik brahamaadikaa mahimaa miti mirajaad n jaanai|
Indr and Brahma et al. donot know the limits of his grandeur.

ਮਿਲੀਆ ਟਹਲਾ ਵੰਡਿ ਕੈ ਜਗਿ ਰਾਜਸੂ ਰਾਜੇ ਰਾਣੈ ।
mileeaa tahalaa vandi kai jagi raajasoo raajay raanai|
When Raisfiy was arranged by Yudhisthar, all were alloted their duties.

ਮੰਗ ਲਈ ਹਰਿ ਟਹਲ ਏਹ ਪੈਰ ਧੋਇ ਚਰਣੋਦਕੁ ਮਾਣੈ ।
mang|aee hari tahal ayh pair dhoi charanodaku maanai|
Krsna himself tookover the duty of washing of the feet of all so that through this service

ਸਾਧਸੰਗਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਿਾਣੈ ॥੯॥
saadhasangati gur sabadu siaanai ॥9॥
he could realise the importance of the service of the holy congregation and the Word of the Guru.
~ Vaar 23 Pauri 9 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas

Gurbani makes the link. The point of this discussion was not how Sikhs should idolize Krishna, but to answer objections that Hindu belief is intolerable for a Sikh. We worship the Supreme Vaheguru. And Gurbani acknowledges that this Supreme uncreated aspect is manifest in creation and in incarnations such as Krishanavataar. Both the nirgun and sargun are the One god. Otherwise it would be a pantheism of many gods. But Gurbani says everything derives from the Absolute uncreated Nirankaar.


~Bhul chak maaf karni ji

Bhul chuk Mauf ho gaye; such a lengthy post.]
What a stamina! wow!.
Imagine a person daily writing 4/5 posts of this caliber should be a Gyani.
Hats off!
Carry on Harjas!!!

Wjkk Wgjf

Dya Singh (Australia) - Sant Jana Mil Harjas

ਪੀ ਕੇ ਜੀ ਵੀ ਘੱਟ ਨਹੀ ਹਨ
ਨੈਹਲੇ ਿਪ ਦੈਲਾ ਹੈ ਚਾਲ ਪੀਕੇ ਜੀ ਕੀ

__________________
Whether you are a small time entrepreneur, or the CEO of a large corporation, you cannot escape the daily challenges of business.
You may be equipped with adequate resources, but without determination and drive you will not be able to take on new challenges.

Dya Singh (Australia) - Sant Jana Mil Harjas

Namjap ji,

A good one.

Quote
God can be betrayed? Even the word God we are speaking now cannot touch the reality. Is some little mataji who prays sincerely to Krishan betraying the reality of God?
Bhain Ji, again you want to split hair, keep doing; I feel due to our long posts many would lose interest, so once I answered as I believe, please move on and stay precise instead of keep going on the same issue. I am in a position, neither I can ignore your question nor I can go precise due to question out of hair splitting. Here is what Guru ji states about calling that person GOD who takes birth and You must bear the following Shabad in mind before taking presumptive conclusion about Gurbani.
<> siqgur pRswid ] sglI QIiq pwis fwir rwKI ] Astm QIiq goivMd jnmwsI ]1] Brim BUly nr krq kcrwiex ] jnm mrx qy rhq nwrwiex ]1] rhwau ] kir pMjIru KvwieE cor ] Ehu jnim n mrY ry swkq For ]2] sgl prwD dyih loronI ] so muKu jlau ijqu khih Twkuru jonI ]3] jnim n mrY n AwvY n jwie ] nwnk kw pRBu rihE smwie ]4]1] {pMnw 1136}
( In essence: Ignoring all other days, , it is said that Almighty was born on the eighth lunar day. || 1 | Deluded and confused mortals practice falsehood. Narain, the Almighty is beyond birth and death. || 1 || Pause || You prepare sweet rice dish and feed it to deity of Krishana ( stone god). God is not born, and He does not die, you foolish, faithless o astray idiot || 2 || You sing lullabies to your deity of Krishna, this is the source of your all sins. That mouth should be burnt, which says that Almighty is subject to birth. || 3 || He is not born, does not die; does not come and go in reincarnation. The God of Nanak is pervading and permeating everywhere)
With this support of Guru Shabad, I shall never commit a sin to call Almighty subject to birth and death. Actually my debate with you ends with this Guru Bachan
The quote you have given below again is not about mata ji’s saying, Read whole shabad, you should feel sorry how you are relating it to Mata ji. It is all about His Sargun form, nothing new, many times we discussed it. After reading above Guru ji’s Shabad in Bharon Rag, you should stop these long posts. I doubt on SPN any one can keep reading.
ਚੋਜੀਮੇਰੇਗੋਵਿੰਦਾਚੋਜੀਮੇਰੇਪਿਆਰਿਆਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭੁਮੇਰਾਚੋਜੀਜੀਉ॥
chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||
Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.

ਹਰਿਆਪੇਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁਉਪਾਇਦਾਮੇਰੇਗੋਵਿਦਾਹਰਿਆਪੇਗੋਪੀਖੋਜੀਜੀਉ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
~SGGS Ji p. 174

Quote:
Quality of spiritual goodness is learned from those ones who remain undefeated from Maya, that is not the case with either Ram( who sends away his wife to Jungle just because a washer man says” I am not like Ram, I shall keep a woman who lived in another mans’ house for that long”, Krishna keeps satisfying his promiscuous urges with ladies.
It is true, Gurbani says:
ਜੁਜਮਹਿਜੋਰਿਛਲੀਚੰਦ੍ਰਾਵਲਿਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁਜਾਦਮੁਭਇਆ॥
juj mehi jor shhalee chandhraaval kaanh kirasan jaadham bhaeiaa ||
In the Jujar Veda, Kaan Krishna of the Yaadva tribe seduced Chandraavali by force.

ਪਾਰਜਾਤੁਗੋਪੀਲੈਆਇਆਬਿੰਦ੍ਰਾਬਨਮਹਿ ਰੰਗੁਕੀਆ॥
paarajaath gopee lai aaeiaa bindhraaban mehi rang keeaa ||
He brought the Elysian Tree for his milk-maid, and revelled in Brindaaban.

ਕਲਿ