Hindu Legends

Sikh80 · #21 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 10:24 AM

~ Deleted ~

namjap · #22 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 01:00 PM

Harjas Kaur Ji,

Here's another intepretation of the gurbani tuk you mentioned. There is a difference in meaning between Krishan and krishnang. Below translation by Bhai Manmohan Singh is self explanatory:-

ਮਃ ੨ ॥
मः २ ॥
Mehlā 2.
2nd Guru.

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥
एक क्रिसनं सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमा ॥
Ėk krisanŉ sarab ḏėvā ḏėv ḏėvā ṯa āṯmā.
The One Lord is the God of all gods and he is the soul of their godliness.

Sikh80 · #23 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 01:41 PM

Respected namjap ji,

There are many places where there is reference to krishna that clearly states that He is not the God.
Sikh philosophy rejects the incarnation of God in human format.It is the area that is clear and within this we have to define various interpretations.
At other places Krishna has been referred to as a generic name of Lord as well. But the one who states in Geeta that I am God and meditate upon me is not the krishna that we recognize as God.

One has own way of interpretation. It has also been stated that there are many Krishnas and if I am not forgetting the exact term has been that there are million of Krishnas. Yes, we should respect the Devtas of fellow beings but it is not as per the Sikh philosophy.
Let us look at the following 'sabad'.

[I had deleted one post as i do not intend to buy arguments on the matters that are well settled as per Sikhi.One is amenable to discuss the things that do not deflect us from the basics of Sikhi that we know of.]

ang165
Gauree Gwaarayree, Fourth Mehl:

Service to the True Guru is fruitful and rewarding;
meeting Him, I meditate on the Name of the Lord, the Lord Master.
So many are emancipated along with those who meditate on the Lord. ||1||
O GurSikhs, chant the Name of the Lord, O my Siblings of Destiny.
Chanting the Lord's Name, all sins are washed away. ||1||Pause||
When one meets the Guru, then the mind becomes centered.
The five passions, running wild, are brought to rest by meditating on the Lord.
Night and day, within the body-village, the Glorious Praises of the Lord are sung. ||2||
Those who apply the dust of the Feet of the True Guru to their faces,
renounce falsehood and enshrine love for the Lord.
Their faces are radiant in the Court of the Lord, O Siblings of Destiny. ||3||
Service to the Guru is pleasing to the Lord Himself.
Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.
O Nanak, the Lord Himself saves the Gurmukhs. ||4||5||43||

Sikh80 · #24 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 01:49 PM

Exploring further one also finds the following.

Gauree Maajh, Fourth Mehl:
ang 178

Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.
The Lord Himself enjoys every heart, O my Lord of the Universe; He Himself is the Ravisher and the Enjoyer.
The Lord is All-knowing - He cannot be fooled, O my Lord of the Universe. He is the True Guru, the Yogi. ||1||
He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself plays in so many ways!
Some enjoy enjoyments, O my Lord of the Universe, while others wander around naked, the poorest of the poor.
He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord gives His gifts to all who beg for them.
His devotees have the Support of the Naam, O my Lord of the Universe; they beg for the sublime sermon of the Lord. ||2||
The Lord Himself inspires His devotees to worship Him, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord fulfills the desires of the minds of His devotees.
He Himself is permeating and pervading the waters and the lands, O my Lord of the Universe; He is All-pervading - He is not far away.
The Lord Himself is within the self, and outside as well, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is fully pervading everywhere.
The Lord, the Supreme Soul, is diffused everywhere, O my Lord of the Universe. The Lord Himself beholds all; His Immanent Presence is pervading everywhere. ||3||
O Lord, the music of the praanic wind is deep within, O my Lord of the Universe; as the Lord Himself plays this music, so does it vibrate and resound.
O Lord, the treasure of the Naam is deep within, O my Lord of the Universe; through the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the Lord God is revealed.
He Himself leads us to enter His Sanctuary, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord preserves the honor of His devotees.
By great good fortune, one joins the Sangat, the Holy Congregation, O my Lord of the Universe; O servant Nanak, through the Naam, one's affairs are resolved. ||4||4||30||68||

Sikh80 · #25 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 01:59 PM

With such a clear cut statements that are contained in bani the second claim that Vedas are the source and sum total of Sikhi stands false. Sikhism treats Vedas as only a part of maya.

Sikhism is an independent religion with many commonalities with other eastern philosophies. But it does not mean that we forget that we are taught and give 'quotes' on the areas that are against the basics of Sikhism.

Sikh philosophy should prevail while interpreting the things and should not be disturbed. No compromise is acceptable, howsoever, verbose one may advocate and profess the view points.
One should avoid quoting Bani in tilt of the faith that has been rejected by Gurus for the reasons that we need not discuss here. There are many threads that discuss Sikhism and Sikh philosophy.
I am not very sure as to what exactly Rehat says about Vedas. kindly enlighten if you have an access to the Rehat as it is the Panthic approach that is the guide for Sikhs.

Sikh80 · #26 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 02:08 PM

Aasaa, Fourth Mehl:
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, everyone embodied contentment and meditation; religion stood upon four feet.
With mind and body, they sang of the Lord, and attained supreme peace. In their hearts was the spiritual wisdom of the Lord's Glorious Virtues.
Their wealth was the spiritual wisdom of the Lord's Glorious Virtues; the Lord was their success, and to live as Gurmukh was their glory.
Inwardly and outwardly, they saw only the One Lord God; for them there was no other second.
They centered their consciousness lovingly on the Lord, Har, Har. The Lord's Name was their companion, and in the Court of the Lord, they obtained honor.
In the Golden Age of Sat Yuga, everyone embodied contentment and meditation; religion stood upon four feet. ||1||
Then came the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga; men's minds were ruled by power, and they practiced celibacy and self-discipline.
The fourth foot of religion dropped off, and three remained. Their hearts and minds were inflamed with anger.
Their hearts and minds were filled with the horribly poisonous essence of anger. The kings fought their wars and obtained only pain.
Their minds were afflicted with the illness of egotism, and their self-conceit and arrogance increased.
If my Lord, Har, Har, shows His Mercy, my Lord and Master eradicates the poison by the Guru's Teachings and the Lord's Name.
Then came the Silver Age of Trayta Yuga; men's minds were ruled by power, and they practiced celibacy and self-discipline. ||2||
The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna.
The penitents practiced penance, they offered sacred feasts and charity, and performed many rituals and religious rites.
They performed many rituals and religious rites; two legs of religion dropped away, and only two legs remained.
So many heroes waged great wars; in their egos they were ruined, and they ruined others as well.
The Lord, Compassionate to the poor, led them to meet the Holy Guru. Meeting the True Guru, their filth is washed away.
The Brass Age of Dwaapar Yuga came, and the people wandered in doubt. The Lord created the Gopis and Krishna. ||3||
The Lord ushered in the Dark Age, the Iron Age of Kali Yuga; three legs of religion were lost, and only the fourth leg remained intact.
Acting in accordance with the Word of the Guru's Shabad, the medicine of the Lord's Name is obtained. Singing the Kirtan of the Lord's Praises, divine peace is obtained.
The season of singing the Lord's Praise has arrived; the Lord's Name is glorified, and the Name of the Lord, Har, Har, grows in the field of the body.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, if one plants any other seed than the Name, all profit and capital is lost.
Servant Nanak has found the Perfect Guru, who has revealed to him the Naam within his heart and mind.
The Lord ushered in the Dark Age, the Iron Age of Kali Yuga; three legs of religion were lost, and only the fourth leg remained intact. ||4||4||11||

Sikh80 · #27 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 02:14 PM

All that I want to state is that Krishna is worthy of respect as Devta only and he is not GOD as was the intention when I originally posted that we do not recognize Krishna as HE or as the Lord.

It is not as per Sikhism to treat anyone like shiva, Brahma or other Devtas as God although they had everything that God gives to all.
These are only terms of respect for me. I cannot extend the generalization to make them god. It shall be a liberalism but only a hypothesis.
I feel guilty of disturbing the flow of this threads but all this happens when one is learning.

namjap · #28 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 05:48 PM

Sikh80 Ji,

What do you have to say to this tuk :-

Page 230, Line 17
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮੂਲੁ ਵੇਦ ਅਭਿਆਸਾ ॥
ब्रहमा मूलु वेद अभिआसा ॥
Barahmā mūl vėḏ abẖi*āsā.
Brahma is the founder of the study of the Vedas.
Guru Amar Das - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok

Sikh80 · #29 (**permalink**) 08-05-2008, 10:19 PM

Respected namjap ji,
I have no problems with the names of Hindu gods and their inclusion the text. However, my focus is clear that none out of them is supreme creator. Although creator has no name and can be addressed by any name. But 'waheguru' suits us. I am happy with this kind of interpretations.
You have to inform us of Rehat of Sikhs and Vedas. kindly let us know, i could not lay my hand .
I shall peacefully look into the 'tuk' that you have stated above.It is a grey area for me.

Regards.

pk70 · #30 (**permalink**) 09-05-2008, 06:44 AM

namjapji
That whole Shabad makes more clear that all this read and said about fall short of realizing HIM, because the victory of Maya over all of them make them insignificant in context of realizing Him, so it is the Satguru that helps us to win this battle against Maya. Point is very important to understand Sikhi while all these stories are told. Guru ji goes further to state (in another Shabad )that actually all is His game, the devotee should follow Guru only and live by his instructions and pay attention to none other.