CaramelChocolate
SPNer
Jay Swaminarayan.
Why is there so much stigma that comes with the title 'idol worshipper' these days?
Why is there so much stigma that comes with the title 'idol worshipper' these days?
Idol Worship
- Thread starter CaramelChocolate
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- May 23, 2005
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Q.) What are the various stages in the worship of the Lord?
Ans) The first stage is worship of the formless Lord. Actually the formless Lord is only the formless power of the Lord, which pervades all over the creation. The light of the Sun is formless but not the Sun. Thus the formless worship is an approach to the Lord by worshipping His power, which is actually not the possessor of the power. Veda says that Brahman is the possessor of the power and not the formless power (Brahma Puchcham Pratistha). In the second stage the possessor of the power is worshipped indirectly through idols and photos. It is very difficult to worship the formless power of the Lord as said in Gita ‘Avyaktahi Gatir Duhkham’. For the concentration of the mind a form is required. Thus idol worship is a higher and better step. But the idol is only a representative symbol of the Lord and is inert. In the third stage the human being, which is a mixture of inert body and living soul is worshipped as a symbol of the Lord. Every human being is treated as Lord though not the actual Lord. This symbol is better than the previous symbol. Actually in this stage the jealousy towards another man due to the individual egoism is removed. Every human being is considered as the Lord and is worshipped so that when the Lord in human form is achieved, He will not be rejected. The human form of the Lord is also loved and treated as the Lord like all the other human beings. Atleast there is no negative approach towards the human form of the Lord, though the positive approach is diluted. In this stage egosim and jealousy are removed and this is a stage of psychological training to cure the inherent diseases, which are egoism and jealousy. In the fourth stage the actual human form of the Lord is realised. In this stage the devotee considers that human form alone is the Lord and loves that human form only. This is the concentration of the positive approach. Hanuman and Gopikas who are the highest devotees are the best examples for the fourth stage. He never worshipped the formless Lord or the statues or all the human beings. Hanuman worshipped only one human being i.e., Rama. Similarly Gopikas worshipped only one human being i.e., Krishna. They never worshipped the statues of the previous incarnations. Hanuman did not worship the statue of Vamana or Parasurama. Gopikas did not worship the statue of Rama. Had the worshipped so they would have fallen to the second stage from the fourth stage. All these four stages are the steps in the right path and need not be criticized. Only atheism should be criticized.
antonyanil@universal-spirituality.org
ANIL ANTONY
drkhalsa
SPNer
- Sep 16, 2004
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DEAR Dattaswami
Welcome to this forum and sharing you r thought s
As per the topis you have mention I have some serious disagreement wit it while it doesnot matter as long as we here and learn from each other
as you said
In sikh philosphy ( just to remind which is akso shared by various bhagats like kabir, namdev... ) says opposite to it it is considered the first stage and worship of formless god last stage .
it is interesting that you mentione dthat it is difficult to worship formless god and it is mentioned in Gita then so go on to say it is first stage , I think it never happen in any system of learning that you learn Most difficult things first and then go on for easy things like worshiping human form . As matter of fact you can see the caos that has been craeted with this in India in present times here thousandas of babas and acharays and mata ji has taken place of one formless god . the situation before this was even better when people in india were worshiping thiusands od different demi gods and gods at tall these character were infallible but now every day new baba , mata , acharaya come in new and a the same time one of them is being convicted for crimes like rape, murder , child abuse on daily bases .
While said that I not at all expect myself to absolutely right but one thing that I believe quite firmly with Grace of AKAL (Formless god ) is that he is the only one to be worshiped
I also want to mentionesd that many bhagats whose BANI ( Writings are there in Guru Granth Sahib used to be ideal worshiper before but progressed from that stage to reach formless stage .
Jatinder Singh
Welcome to this forum and sharing you r thought s
As per the topis you have mention I have some serious disagreement wit it while it doesnot matter as long as we here and learn from each other
as you said
In sikh philosphy ( just to remind which is akso shared by various bhagats like kabir, namdev... ) says opposite to it it is considered the first stage and worship of formless god last stage .
it is interesting that you mentione dthat it is difficult to worship formless god and it is mentioned in Gita then so go on to say it is first stage , I think it never happen in any system of learning that you learn Most difficult things first and then go on for easy things like worshiping human form . As matter of fact you can see the caos that has been craeted with this in India in present times here thousandas of babas and acharays and mata ji has taken place of one formless god . the situation before this was even better when people in india were worshiping thiusands od different demi gods and gods at tall these character were infallible but now every day new baba , mata , acharaya come in new and a the same time one of them is being convicted for crimes like rape, murder , child abuse on daily bases .
While said that I not at all expect myself to absolutely right but one thing that I believe quite firmly with Grace of AKAL (Formless god ) is that he is the only one to be worshiped
I also want to mentionesd that many bhagats whose BANI ( Writings are there in Guru Granth Sahib used to be ideal worshiper before but progressed from that stage to reach formless stage .
Jatinder Singh
CaramelChocolate
SPNer
But doesn't Sikhism say that God cannot be described in his entirety and therefore cannot be worshipped as a whole? [Hence why SGGS always says I worship the naam I worship the Guru but never really says I worship the LORD].
Murti puja takes the God and puts it through it the spectrum like the white light to reveal all the knowable aspects of God [Generator, Operator, Destroyer].
Babas etc. have not exactly taken the place of God, everyone has GOD in them but these people are more aware of the God within them HENCE the glory of God is seen much clearer in them by others and the Godliness dwelling within them is worshipped.
So God is within all. Even during arti the santo/pujari/priest will do arti to the murti of God for a long time and then near the end wave the lamp around the congregation quickly before returning to the murti, he is doing ARTI to the God present within the congregation.
Murti puja takes the God and puts it through it the spectrum like the white light to reveal all the knowable aspects of God [Generator, Operator, Destroyer].
Babas etc. have not exactly taken the place of God, everyone has GOD in them but these people are more aware of the God within them HENCE the glory of God is seen much clearer in them by others and the Godliness dwelling within them is worshipped.
So God is within all. Even during arti the santo/pujari/priest will do arti to the murti of God for a long time and then near the end wave the lamp around the congregation quickly before returning to the murti, he is doing ARTI to the God present within the congregation.
- May 23, 2005
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Do you think that we have to travel from clarity to confusion or from confusion to clarity? Anything becomes complicated when there is confusion. Anything becomes easy when there is clarity. Clarity is the real knowledge and confusion is the real ignorance. We must travel from ignorance to knowledge and not vice-versa. When you say that God is formless, there is no complication. God is like all pervading space or cosmic energy. A 10th class student who has studied physics can very easily understand this. But when a particular human being is declared as God the real complication arises, because He is looking like any human being. How this particular human being is God and every human being is not God? You have to analyze the internal form of the human incarnation and differentiate Him from an ordinary human being. Lot of logical analysis is required here only. Moreover egoism and jealousy attack immediately any one and due to this no body accepts a particular human being as God.
Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space. Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two. The Guru of your Sikh Religion is actually the human incarnation and worshipping Him is the real worship of God. The reason for your Guru not encouraging the human incarnation is that the fraud Gurus are claiming themselves as God. It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells. Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption. There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form. Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only. A devotee by name Jyothi asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. She should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only. God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.
surya@universal-spirituality.org
Actually God is unimaginable and you cannot say that He has form or formless. He is not the space, which is formless. But you imagine Him like space. You have caught the space only in your imagination and not the real God. Somebody says that a peculiar animal in the forest called as Gavaya looks like cow, you have imagined only the cow and not the Gavaya animal. Unless you perceive God directly how can you imagine Him? Your imagination itself is nervous energy. Thus you perceive the unimaginable God through space and nervous energy. Both the space and nervous energy are parts of the creation. If you analyze the human body it is also energy occupying certain space. Therefore, you perceive God through the medium of space and energy. A medium, which is a part of the creation, is essential to imagine the unimaginable God. Unimaginable is different from formless. Space is formless but not unimaginable. First you distinguish between these two. The Guru of your Sikh Religion is actually the human incarnation and worshipping Him is the real worship of God. The reason for your Guru not encouraging the human incarnation is that the fraud Gurus are claiming themselves as God. It is really difficult to recognize the real human incarnation in which, God dwells. Certainly there is a large probability of fraud persons who claim themselves as God and mislead you. But you should not run away from analyzing the genuine incarnation fearing for the fraud persons. Any system has loopholes. The system cannot be rejected due to the loopholes. One cannot avoid the train journey since there is a risk of accident. One cannot abolish the examination system because there is a probability of copying. One cannot abolish the administration offices of the Government, as there is probability of corruption. There is a risk of artificial diamonds to be confused as original diamonds. Due to this will you avoid purchasing the necklace of original diamonds? You will take the help of an expert in selecting the original diamond. The human incarnation is the most convenient form for the worship and service. When you say that God is omni-potent it means that God has all powers. If He cannot come in human form, He is not having that power. Then He cannot be omni-potent. When He has the power to take the human incarnation, He has come in human form. Who are you to object that? He comes in human form for those devotees who are fond of worshipping Him through real service. They like to talk with God and live with God. They like to serve the God and see the pleasure in His face. They get full satisfaction by that. Therefore, God is in human form for such devotees only. Those who do not like the human form can worship God through formless inert items like space, energy etc. or inert forms like statues. But such worship is not the direct worship and it is only a representative worship. Neither space is God nor God is in the space. Similar is the case of a statue. Both formless space and formful statue stand as representatives of God only. Of-course God is pleased with the representative worship also, but the direct experience of God and the possibility of pleasing Him to the maximum extent are possible in the human body only. A devotee by name Jyothi asked a question about the possibility of talking with God directly. She should investigate the human incarnation at present and can talk directly. The procedure to identify the human incarnation based on the scriptures is extensively explained by Me in several answers to the questions that are placed in the web-site (www.universal-spirituality.org). One has to identify the present human incarnation using that procedure, in which the inseparable characteristics of God in the human incarnation are well explained. God is coming in human form in every human generation. If He had come only in a particular human generation God becomes partial to that generation only. God wants to talk with His devotees to please them by clearing all their doubts. This is the main purpose of the human incarnation of God. If you don’t believe the human incarnation you need not approach the human incarnation. But there is a devotee like Jyothi, who is very much anxious to talk with God. You can neither object her nor the God to take the human form. You carry on your representative worship. She is not objecting you. If you don’t want to purchase the original diamonds do not purchase. But you should not object a person who wants to purchase the original diamond. Thus God provided both the ways separately. You purchase the artificial diamonds and let somebody purchases the original diamond. Those who want to pray God without talking with God, let them have the representative worship having formless God or statues. Those who want to pray, talk and worship the living God, let them have the human incarnation. You should not object the desire of other devotee and also the God who is capable to fulfill the desire of that devotee.
surya@universal-spirituality.org
drkhalsa
SPNer
- Sep 16, 2004
- 1,308
- 54
Dear Dattaswami
first of all forgive me if any way I may have offended you but I never ment to do so
Now let clear some point about what I believe
I Never said that there are no incarcination of god or god is not capable of taking human form
what I said was that formless could be considered as base form the form in whicjh he always have been word formless i used here is just denoting the incapability of human intelect and sensory power to precieve him fully due to infinite nature of god , I agree with you that god has incarnations
Now you said that it is easier to serve human god but the problem is recogniging him Agreed now if I can give you more easiwer way to serve god thst sikhism reaches us that is to serve the creation of god ( which is god himself ) that teaches sikh to do sewa ( selfless service to others )
now your concept of human incarnation has one big disadvantage first the question is at a given time is there only one incarnation on earth and if you say yes then
second question then do you thinkhe accesible to all the human beings on the earth no matter how science has progressed do you thing god in human form can reach each and every human being on earth ( in the same context GuruNanak dev did three world tours on foot to reach aas many people as possible but still do you think he reached every body on the eartg at that partcuar time ?)
Now let say you are so lucky that you have all the means at your service to roam around the globe and look for real incarnation do think human being in life span of 60- 80 years can go and test each and every human guru available in the market and d find the real one with what ever prescribed test he has got and then serve him , well as for me it is difficult to imagine
as for this I would like to admit that I have never ever thought the people doing Idol worship as wrong and I am ready bow to nay person whois trying to reach AKAL PURAKH (GOD ) by any means that KAL has blesed him .
I again ask for forgiveness for nay offence
Jatinder Singh
first of all forgive me if any way I may have offended you but I never ment to do so
Now let clear some point about what I believe
I Never said that there are no incarcination of god or god is not capable of taking human form
what I said was that formless could be considered as base form the form in whicjh he always have been word formless i used here is just denoting the incapability of human intelect and sensory power to precieve him fully due to infinite nature of god , I agree with you that god has incarnations
Now you said that it is easier to serve human god but the problem is recogniging him Agreed now if I can give you more easiwer way to serve god thst sikhism reaches us that is to serve the creation of god ( which is god himself ) that teaches sikh to do sewa ( selfless service to others )
now your concept of human incarnation has one big disadvantage first the question is at a given time is there only one incarnation on earth and if you say yes then
second question then do you thinkhe accesible to all the human beings on the earth no matter how science has progressed do you thing god in human form can reach each and every human being on earth ( in the same context GuruNanak dev did three world tours on foot to reach aas many people as possible but still do you think he reached every body on the eartg at that partcuar time ?)
Now let say you are so lucky that you have all the means at your service to roam around the globe and look for real incarnation do think human being in life span of 60- 80 years can go and test each and every human guru available in the market and d find the real one with what ever prescribed test he has got and then serve him , well as for me it is difficult to imagine
as for this I would like to admit that I have never ever thought the people doing Idol worship as wrong and I am ready bow to nay person whois trying to reach AKAL PURAKH (GOD ) by any means that KAL has blesed him .
I again ask for forgiveness for nay offence
Jatinder Singh
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