Gun Gobind Gayo Nahi

Narayanjot Kaur · #19 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2007, 06:13 AM

Kds1980 said it all. Again,

ਕਹੂੰ ਲੈ ਠੋਕ ਬਧੇ ਉਰ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੌ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਕਹਯੋ ਹਰਿ ਮੰਦਰ ਮੈ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਸੀਤ ਕੈ ਬੀਚ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥

Someone has tied the stone-idol around his neck and someone has accepted Shiva as the Lord; someone considers the Lord within the temple or the mosque;

ਕਾਹੂੰ ਨੇ ਰਾਮ ਕਹਯੋ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਕਹੁ ਕਾਹੂੰ ਮਨੈ ਅਵਤਾਰਨ ਮਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਬਿਸਾਰ ਸਭੈ ਕਰਤਾਰ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਕਰਤਾ ਜੀਅ ਜਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੨॥
Someone calls him Ram or Krishna and someone believes in His incarnations, but my mind has forsaken all useless actions and has accepted only the One Creator.12.

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/16025-gun-gobind-gayo-nahi.html

If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

ਸੱਤ ਸਰੂਪ ਬਿਬੈਰ ਕਹਾਇ ਸੁ ਕਯੋਂ ਪਥ ਕੌ ਰਥ ਹਾਂਕ ਧਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਰਿ ਕੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਕੋਊ ਭੇਦੁ ਨ ਲੇਨ ਲਯੋ ਜੂ ॥੧੩॥

If he is called the Truth-incarnate, beyond enmity and opposition, then why did he become the charioteer of Arjuna ? O mind ! you only consider him the Lord God, whose Mysetry could not be known to anyone.13.

ਕਯੋਂ ਕਹੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾਨਿਧ ਹੈ ਕਿਹ ਕਾਜ ਤੇ ਬੱਧਕ ਬਾਣ ਲਗਾਯੋ ॥ ਅਉਰ ਕੁਲੀਨ ਉਧਾਰਤ ਜੋ ਕਿਹ ਤੇ ਅਪਨੋ ਕੁਲ ਨਾਸੁ ਕਰਾਯੋ ॥

Krishna himself is considered the treasure of Grace, then why did the hunter shot his arrow at him ? He has been described as redeeming the clans of others then he caused the destruction of his own clan;

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16025

He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

ਕਾਹੇ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਮਹੇਸ਼ਹਿ ਭਾਖਤ ਕਾਹਿ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ ਬਖਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਹੈ ਨ ਰਘ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਜਦ੍ਵੇਸ਼ ਰਮਾਪਤਿ ਤੈ ਜਿਨ ਕੌ ਬਿਸ੍ਵਨਾਥ ਪਛਾਨਯੋ ॥

Why do you consider Shiva or Brahma as the Lord ? There is none amongst Ram, Krishna and Vishnu, who may be considered as the Lord of the Universe by you;

ਏਕ ਕੋ ਛਾਡਿ ਅਨੇਕ ਭਜੈ ਸੁਕਦੇਵ ਪਰਾਸਰ ਬਯਾਸ ਝੁਠਾਨਯੋ ॥ ਫੋਕਟ ਧਰਮ ਸਜੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਹਮ ਏਕ ਹੀ ਕੌ ਬਿਧ ਨੈਕ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਯੋ ॥੧੫॥

Relinquishing the One Lord, you remember many gods and goddesses; in this way you prove Shukdev, Prashar etc. as liars; all the so-called religions are hollow; I only accept the One Lord as the Providence.15.

ਕੋਊ ਦਿਜੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਮਾਨਤ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਕੋਊ ਮਹੇਸ਼ ਕੋ ਏਸ਼ ਬਤੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਕੋਊ ਕਹੈ ਬਿਸ਼ਨੋ ਬਿਸ਼ਨਾਇਕ ਜਾਹਿ ਭਜੇ ਅਘ ਓਘ ਕਟੈ ਹੈ ॥
Someone tells Brahma as the Lord-God and someone tells the same thing about Shiva; someone considers Vishnu as the hero of the universe and says that only on remembering him, all the sins will be destroyed;

ਬਾਰ ਹਜ਼ਾਰ ਬਿਚਾਰ ਅਰੇ ਜੜ ਅੰਤ ਸਮੈ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਤਜਿ ਜੈ ਹੈ ॥ ਤਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਧਯਾਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨਿ ਹੀਏ ਜੋਊ ਥੇ ਅਬ ਹੈ ਅਰੁ ਆਗੈ ਊ ਹ੍ਵੈ ਹੈ ॥੧੬॥

O fool ! think about it a thousand times, all of them will leave you at the time of death, therefore, you should only meditate on Him, who is there in the present and who will also be there in future.16.

nrkalee · #20 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2007, 11:37 AM

In response to: Dassam Granth...not to go there

No desire, no time, no patience with controversial literature. Why jeopardize an eternity of happiness by reading such a thing; why intentionally choose a leaky boat to cross the ocean of nescience?

Please take your spiritual life extremely seriously. You stand to gain or lose immeasurably. As I have mentioned earlier, the Vedic literatures are very emphatic on this one. The basic idea is:

Athato Brahma-Jijnasa. ‘Now is the time for self-realization.’

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16025
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16025
The ‘now’ here means when one obtains a human form of life. As a toilet fly it is a little difficult to pursue, as an alley cat, you have sparrows on your mind, as a demigod too you are much too distracted by the pleasures of heaven.* As a human neither are you tormented by appalling suffering nor are the pleasures so great to wholly distract you.

Therefore: Now is the time... but for heaven's sake pick a sturdy boat.

*Heavenly planets are different from the spiritual world of Vaikunta. I hope you guys know that.

nrkalee · #21 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2007, 11:45 AM

Dear SPN Moderators: what have you done with my article: "Clearing Spiritual Concepts?"

Aman Singh · #22 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2007, 15:42 PM

Just checkout, its back!!

Let's be more matured while discussing anything on SPN. Unnecessary personal comments and bragging only takes us away from the topic rather than sounding intellectual. Avoid this at any cost.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=16025

Enjoy!!

kds1980 · #23 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2007, 17:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nrkalee

Yes Ji,
I have an opinion on that subject as well. Much of the sentiments expressed by Guru Nanak are actually esoteric Vaishnava ideologies. Only a exalted Vaishnava Acharya of the caliber of Jaidev or so, is allowed to compose such songs. That’s the etiquette.

So herein lay a discrepancy. How does someone sing such songs and at the same time not know that Krishna is the Supreme Lord and not a Demigod like Mahesh?

Now that fact that Krishna is the Supreme Lord is firmly established in all the Vedic Literatures. They are not my baseless conclusions. In fact, you will not find a single semi-literate Hindu who will club Krishna with the demigods. What then to speak of a Vaishanva who would rather die than make such a blunder. This in indeed very mysterious. Deep on one hand, appallingly shallow on the other.

Now, clearly we cannot have the Guru in a compromising position. Therefore, clearly, the ‘..KETE KAAN MAHES..’ verse is the handiwork of someone else, and possibly even the ever prolific Bhai Mani Singh, the author of the Dassam Granth which is full of similar sentiments, and frankly not the same as Nanak's teachings.

dear nrkalee

Its better if you start this debate that vishnu is the supreme lord and other hindu gods are
demi gods on hindu forum.i watched many hindu serials like om namoh shivay ,devi maa etc and one thing is clear that all worshippers of gods whether it is durga or shiv or vishnu
say that their god or goddess is supreme while others are demi gods.according to shaivaites vishnu is the worshipper of shiva and according to shakt vishnu is the worshipper of durga.so your claim that vedic literature accept vishnu the supreme lord is not fully true

as far as your claim that guru granth sahib is adulterated by bhai mani singh is absolutely baseless.you should know the history of guru granth sahib before making such claims.
The original bir of aad granth known as kartarpuri bir which was written by guru arjan dev ji was in the possession of dhirtmallia.when guru gobind singh ji demanded it from him he refused to give it.then guru gobind singh ji exactly wrote the guru granth sahib adding shabads of guru tegh bahadur ji and one shalok of his.The bir that guru gobind singh ji wrote is known as damdami bir.the gurgaddi was given to this bir.

The kartar puri bir is still in the possession of sodhi family.a court case is going on
that this bir should be returned to sikhs.the people who read kartarpuri bir found that shabads of kartarpuri bir are not different from guru granth sahib of present.so there is no chance of bhai mani singh adultrating kartarpuri bir as well damdami bir.

kds1980 · #24 (**permalink**) 04-Jul-2007, 17:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nrkalee

Please understand that the formless god concept is not a very great realization. Also, the if you believe that you can address him by any name, why is name jap given so much importance? The name of the Lord is same as the Lord. And therefore chanting the name alone purifies. Any amount of heartfelt praying is not going to get you anywhere. Only names such as Krishna will penetrate deep and cleanse your soul. Please try to understand my arguments wholly by its logic.

dear nrkalee

you are a vaishnava and i respect your beleif but please don't try to impose your beleif on others that krishna is supreme god and only it makes you no different from muslims who propagate that allah is true god and onlly mohammed is the last prophet and all those who don't beleive in it will go to hell

let me show you a shabd of kabir ji

ਲਖ ਚਉਰਾਸੀਹ ਜੀਅ ਜੋਨਿ ਮਹਿ ਭ੍ਰਮਤ ਨੰਦੁ ਬਹੁ ਥਾਕੋ ਰੇ ॥
लख चउरासीह जीअ जोनि महि भ्रमत नंदु बहु थाको रे ॥
Lakẖ cẖaorāsīh jīa jon meh bẖarmaṯ nanḏ baho thāko rė.
Wandering through 8.4 million incarnations, Krishna's father Nand was totally exhausted.

ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਅਵਤਾਰੁ ਲੀਓ ਹੈ ਭਾਗੁ ਬਡੋ ਬਪੁਰਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥੧॥
भगति हेति अवतारु लीओ है भागु बडो बपुरा को रे ॥१॥
Bẖagaṯ hėṯ avṯār līo hai bẖāg bado bapurā ko rė. ||1||
Because of his devotion, Krishna was incarnated in his home; how great was the good fortune of this poor man! ||1||

ਤੁਮ੍ਹ੍ਹ ਜੁ ਕਹਤ ਹਉ ਨੰਦ ਕੋ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਨੰਦ ਸੁ ਨੰਦਨੁ ਕਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥
तुम्ह जु कहत हउ नंद को नंदनु नंद सु नंदनु का को रे ॥
Ŧumĥ jo kahaṯ hao nanḏ ko nanḏan nanḏ so nanḏan kā ko rė.
You say that Krishna was Nand's son, but whose son was Nand himself?

ਧਰਨਿ ਅਕਾਸੁ ਦਸੋ ਦਿਸ ਨਾਹੀ ਤਬ ਇਹੁ ਨੰਦੁ ਕਹਾ ਥੋ ਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
धरनि अकासु दसो दिस नाही तब इहु नंदु कहा थो रे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Ḏẖaran akās ḏaso ḏis nāhī ṯab ih nanḏ kahā tho rė. ||1|| rahāo.
When there was no earth or ether or the ten directions, where was this Nand then? ||1||Pause||

ਸੰਕਟਿ ਨਹੀ ਪਰੈ ਜੋਨਿ ਨਹੀ ਆਵੈ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਜਾ ਕੋ ਰੇ ॥
संकटि नही परै जोनि नही आवै नामु निरंजन जा को रे ॥
Sankat nahī parai jon nahī āvai nām niranjan jā ko rė.
He does not fall into misfortune, and He does not take birth; His Name is the Immaculate Lord.

ਕਬੀਰ ਕੋ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਐਸੋ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਮਾਈ ਨ ਬਾਪੋ ਰੇ ॥੨॥੧੯॥੭੦॥
कबीर को सुआमी ऐसो ठाकुरु जा कै माई न बापो रे ॥२॥१९॥७०॥
Kabīr ko suāmī aiso ṯẖākur jā kai māī na bāpo rė. ||2||19||70||
Kabeer's Lord is such a Lord and Master, who has no mother or father. ||2||19||70|

so worshiping of one formless god is the basic philosophy of sikhism.If you agree with it its fine if you don't then it is also fine you can worship krishna as you like but please don't try to impose your beleifs on uthers