Sikhi and Capitalism

Hello everybody,

I have a few questions on Sikhism’s ideological outlook on a modern entity, capitalism:


When Sikhism emerged we can say with confidence that it emerged in the midst of the Indian Medieval ages (a time of continuous political turmoil). Sikhism also emerged before the arrival of modern capitalism. (India experienced the full revolutionary strength of capitalism after the colonization of India by the British).

Now,
In Medieval India we had a pre-capitalistic society in which the ruthless acquisition of goods was permitted AND was bound to NO ethical norms whatsoever.
(lots of crime: cheating, fraud and larceny were all common modes of acquiring capital)
I am assuming with confidence that our guru's were also against this ruthless acquisition processes.
With the emergence of Capitalism all this changed dramatically, Lawfulness greatly increased under the British rule as was not seen under the Mughal rule.

My question now follows;
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/interfaith-dialogues/14187-sikhi-and-capitalism.html

What is the Sikh position with respect to Capitalism and the modern Corporation? (It seems to me that our faith is more communal/socialist oriented...especially when you have our guru's introducing the idea of Langar)

Is the legal acquisition of goods permitted within Sikhi? or is a Sikh not permitted to attain too much capital?

How should a wealthy Sikh wear his cloak of riches?

AND

What FORCE should motivate us (AS SIKHS) to accumulate capital to ensure our physical survival?
--> Should it be Maya (A word that is --- very unpopular amongst Sikhs) or something else?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187
....note if you pick something else then I would like to know what it is?

cheers.

 
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Sinister, you've raised a really important issue and is not discussed enough by Sikhs in my opinion.

What you are saying is disputable. Your ignoring the slave trade. Centuries of theft of foreign resources by the west. Theft of heritage (hence the museums are packed in London with foreign booty). Exploitation of the weak and uneducated, such as indentured trading which was used to replace black slaves on plantations with Indians (hence Indians in West Indies and other islands). Capitalism can be as ruthless as any system in the past for example alot of people think the invasion of Iraq is down to oil resources. The Enron scandal. Old boy networks which hire a small select bunch of usually upper class Anglo-Saxons to received huge salaries even when they cause the companies to lose millions.



[quote=Sinister]My question now follows;

What is the Sikh position with respect to Capitalism and the modern Corporation? (It seems to me that our faith is more communal/socialist oriented...especially when you have our guru's introducing the idea of Langar).[/quote]

I would agree, there is a sakhi of Guru Nanak and Duni Chand (I think), who was what we would call today a capitalist (i.e. rich money hoarder). When the Guru was leaving Duni he asked the Guru if there was anything he could do for him. Guruji gave him a needle and said "You can give this to me in the next world" and left.

After thinking Duni ran after the Guru and said "Take the needle back, how am I supposed to take this with me to the next realm?"

Guruji said "If you can't get the needle across what use do you think your money will be there?"

Duni Chand then became actively involved in charitable works for the poor.

Other examples could include:

Guru Gobind throwing his gold bangles in the river as a child and saying I don't want to be a slave of coloured clay.

Guru Nanak staying with poor carpenter instead of rich lord, and saying that the blood of the poor was contained in the food of the lord hence his refusal to participate in a feast hosted by him.

Daswand.

We have many such examples in Sikh culture.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sinister Is the legal acquisition of goods permitted within Sikhi? or is a Sikh not permitted to attain too much capital?

From my limited understanding the Guru's were not against collecting capital, but one needed to do good in life by being generous to those in need and making your money honestly or without exploiting the poor/vulnerable.



The concept of miri/piri explains this. Worldly power is not bad, but without spirituality or dharam it can be easily abused and turn one into a tyrant. so miri (worldly wealth/power) needs to be balanced with piri (spirituality). Once someone is on the spiritual path presumably they would be inclined to do some seva for humanity.

I just watched J. S. Khalra's last speech in Canada and he said that the Guru's gift to this world was propagating a system which did not remove ethical values from government. Sikhs have failed to live by this in modern times though.

These are just my opinions though, I'd appreciate constructive criticism of them.


WJKK
WJKF

_/\_ SSA,

Socialism is very different from what we generally understand of it. It is about struggle of working class to achieve a system where everyone is given equal share according to his/her contribution. Guru Nanak have cited that rich/poor good/bad are all as per his Hukam. Its not that we must torture poor people or not work to uplift them, but we must not force to empty the houses of rich people. We must fight for saving the poor, i.e. exploitation, socialism is that there should be no rich or poor. Langar is a concept which points out that everyone is equal in his house and we get what we deserve in life. We must be satisfied and not worry about gaining more wealth. Asking the question as what should motivate us for wealth is totally irrational given that we must not aim at all for wealth. What ever he gives must be satisfied with it, a sikh can wear anything and do anything but should remember God always and fear him.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187
About what should motivate us for survival, the answer is we must not worry about our survival in first place. If we trust our Guru as our father, He will feed us. All worldly desires bow on feet of a gursikh. Give your mann to Guru, when you do that, with what will you think?

Hello,

"the answer is we must not worry about our survival in first place. If we trust our Guru as our father, He will feed us. All worldly desires bow on feet of a gursikh." (Quote)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

Dear No One,
Not worry about our survival? interesting notion....what should we worry about if not for the survival of ourselves and that of our families? of the faith? does the faith not rest on the hands of the people who sustain it and practice it?

How can you conceive that survival isnt the goal of an individual or that of a Sikh? Isnt survival an intrinsic property of the human psyche?

While studying the tribal areas of Papua New Guinea, in the most primitive of societies Bronisław Malinowski (anthropologist) writes that:

"A fisherman with a with a broken net recourses not to prayer but to the weaving of a new net"
The intuitive action of the native is to re-weave his net from bamboo fibers rather than turn to the omnipotent God.

So the veiw that God will help us is in itself unseemingly impossible given the notion that God helps those who help themselves? (an intrinsic beleif that is evident even in the minds of simpler/less complex societies)

And as such every sikh knows well enough that their end would be near if they had no lust for material satisfaction (aka survival).

So again I ask the question What force should motivate us as Sikhs to sustain ourselves for physical survival?.....Is it not Maya?
I dont think this is an irrational question.

How about common sense?

Hello Dal singh, I thankyou for the quick reply but it fails to answer anything.

I guess "common sense" is the knee-jerk answer to all problems, except it is inadequate of a conclusion considering us Sikhs are very much empiricists and practioners. Common sense is not an innate property but something that is at all times learnt. Common sense is in all regards Knowledge of the performance of a task.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

and somehow i doubt we can build and irrigate 1000 acre farms from mere innate common sense?

A MOTIVATION MUST BE PRESENT IN ORDER TO SUSTAIN SURVIVAL!!!!

And so again I ask;
What force should motivate us as Sikhs to sustain ourselves for physical survival if it is not maya (lust for material goods)?.....

example:

1) I get hungary and my stomach lets out a rumble
2) My first recourse is not to pray to God for food or for that matter result to my common senses
3) My first recourse is to lust for food (maya). The lust brings about awareness (arousal), change in the bodily state and then MOTIVATION.
4) The Motivation activates the so called "common senses" (knowledge of how to attain food)
5) I activate all my motor systems
6) I eat!
7) My lust is satisfied, but only temporarily.

Proof: refer to Robert C Solomon "as-if loop" of emotion/sensation.
Scientific Proof: Mice injected with Obestatin (a hormone that supresses the region of the brain that has gastrin receptor (a hormone that initiates hunger sensation)) refuse to eat and die becasue of a lack of motivation to feed. The mice have not forgotten how to eat they just dont eat because they beleive they are full!

Humanity is not sustained only upon common sense but also motivation and lust. Unless Motivation/Lust are a part of the vague term of "COMMON SENSE"

A question so simple yet at the same time so complex?
I have been reading Gurbaani and trying to figure this one out on my own but have not come across anything....most of the stuff i have come across is distinctly a negative portrait of maya (aka lust)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187
Although Maya it seems is the the duality of humanity : It is responsible for both misery and sustenance!

why is sikhism so against it, is what is so baffling!

And I find it hard to beleive that a human does not have a "lust" for survival
All my arguments are further expressed by Robert C. Solomon in a paper of psychology : "From emotions and Choice" (a good read)
The Mice experiments are also true being performed by leading endocrinologist of our time there are a couple of leading papers on obestatin (their thinking on using it to shave the fat off Americans...hehe).

It seems that the more sceince develops the more we become materialistic and the more Religion loses ground and authority. Especially when we have discoveries in the neurological sciences.

I will try to read more Religious texts but I need somewhere to start and much more clarification!
My faith is not as strong as many others (i will have to admit to that)
I do charish the Sikh Messages of Morality but its this other religious mumbo jumbo that i do not understand.

We have strayed off topic but this entire argument is directly related to Capitalism/Materialism and the lust for material goods (more of a Micro study)

Ok ill stop talking and let someone else voice their opinions and or ideas.

DEAR SINISTER
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

i think you are misinterpretting lust with physical needs.our guru's were not against
physical needs they were against obsession for material goods.sikhism is not at all against physical needs.infact guru's rejected brahamchari way of life which was the way of sadhu sants of that time.

Hello KDS1980,

"i think you are misinterpretting lust with physical needs.our guru's were not against
physical needs they were against obsession for material goods." (quote)

Physcial Needs = Obsession for Material Goods
THis is where Capitalism comes into play!! its a system devised and perfected over the ages, to increase our obsession with material goods so that the physical needs of survival are easier to sustain for the majority (hence mass production and greed)!

I think you are misenterpretting what I am trying to say! I never equated Lust to Physical Needs
I am merely stating that Lust is needed in order to OBTAIN Physical Necessities of Survival.
Lust is merely an agent (a catalyst) needed for obtaining material goods of necessity.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

Summary of my last post:
You Cannot survive physically without the lust (aka "motivation to have", "drive"). lust puts food in our mouths, lust for something ensures physical survival (read my last post and try to understand the psychology of human behaviour: the Obestatin experiment is key to this argument!!!).

please ellaborate your replies and stick to the question to keep this thread simple and argument focused.

What force should motivate us as Sikhs to sustain ourselves for physical survival if it is not maya (lust for material goods)?

P.S
If you think its "common sense" please ellaborate on what you mean by Common Sense because nothing of the sort exists in a human world.
I will try to put up some of my own answers to my own questions when i have more time do so.

"Physcial Needs = Obsession for Material Goods"

I disagree with this equation. It's perfectly possible to satisfy one's physical needs without being obsessed with material goods.

For example: When I get hungry, I know that if I don't eat something (provide fuel for my body), I will become light-headed and physically weakened and then, if I continue not to eat anything, eventually will die of starvation.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

So I eat. A bowl of rice and dal with a nice spoonful of raita and I'm set. It's simple and nourishing and keeps my body going so I can keep working on being the best seeker I can be and doing my best to become closer to Waheguru and do seva.

If I spend all my time thinking about food, or about getting the best or fanciest food, or about going to the nicest, most expensive restaurants, or if I eat past the point when I've satisfied my hunger and fueled my body and continue on to gluttony, then I reach the point of obsession. But simply feeling hunger and eating in response doesn't automatically equal obsession. Rather than obsession, I see it as taking care of the body that Waheguru gave me. I don't know why Waheguru gave me this body, but while I'm in it I consider it my responsibility to take good care of it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14187

If I've misinterpreted your argument, my apologies.