Sant Siphahi - Tigerstyle - Wonderful Song

Ambarsaria · #19 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 05:49 AM

Following from Alam Lohar but I believe he makes at least one word error in saying,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/inspirational/38567-sant-siphahi-tigerstyle-wonderful-song.html

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38567

Sat Sri Akal.
*

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #20 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 06:28 AM

Lucky Singh ji..you are mixing up "Kachi Bani" with "Kacha Raag".....the two are different.

Kachi bani is poetry WITHOUT THE SATGUR/GURU element. Only the Bani thats IN the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Pakki and True....all other poetry outside Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is Kachi ....as Guru Ji declares in Anand Sahib.. SATGUR BINA HOR KACHI BANI..Kehndeh Kache, sundeh kacheh Kacheen aakh vikhannee...so clearly. Gurbani has to be about the Creator, OF the Creator and By the Creator....Jaisee mein aweh.. KHASAM KI BANI...tessrra karin gyan we Lalo..AS IT comes form Him..I write it down...iluuminate.... says Guru nanak.

So when we have a Dhadriwallh sant for example..sitting down on a KIRTAN STAGE in the Presence of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, in the EXACT same style of KIRTAN RAAGIS....but instead of singing GURBANI form Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.....he sings two liners like....AA Giya Vanjara Bhabi pvaleh choorrian....AA Giyah Baba Ved rogian Da....Haath jorr ke betho Ji..Singh laggeh charnee...OVER and Over again..asking the sangat to REFRAIN after himslef..THAT is called "Kachi Bani" becasue hes trying to market "Fake man made POETRY/JINGLES" as Gurbani kirtan. Those are called DHAARNAS and most Sants of deras love it ebcasue these are TAUGHT Vocally/Oral tradition...while GURBANI KIRTAN has to be learnt by vigorous hard work form an established Raagi/Tabla Master etc....so the uneducated snats take the EASY WAY OUT....obvioulsy ..

Pakka RAAG are the ORIGINAL Raags in which Gurbani is written..Raag Asa, maajh, gaurree bilawal etc etc..31 in all. "Kacha" raag would be mixtures etc..remixing..and i dont think that bad..or anything like that...experimenting with mixing/remixes etc is not banned...Becasue obviously no one would.."announce..I am now singing Raag ASA...and then go ahead and belt out a re-mix of something ??....BUT those singing Katchi bani do "announce" ( in a way by their seating on Kirtan Stage/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji presence/vajas and tablas etc) that they are going to SING ORIGINAL GURBANI/KIRTAN"..BUt then go ahead and sing MAN MADE POEMS/JINGLES. That is reprehensible and rightly condemned..as its MISCONCEPTION. IF they STAND UP...like the POETS..DHADEES etc do..and SING POEMS..jingles..whatever...thats Perfectly OK..because KIRTAN is never done STANDING UP...in a Gurdawara and certainly never in Darbar sahib/Takhats.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38567
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38567

So theres a big difference between RAAG and BANI.

Luckysingh · #21 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 11:35 AM

Thank you Gyani ji for that kind explanation.
This was the reason that I had started the 'kach bani' thread, because there seems to be a few misconceptions as to what constitutes it.
I have learned that what I myself have done is NOT kachi bani as I've not including or eliminated any parts of shabads. - BUT, some of the scholars and qualified will simply NOT accept my personal versions.
I am now aware myself that I have done no such tampering and it is actually all fine, but it's trying to make these others aware of what 'kachi' really is.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38567

Also Kanwaljit Ji, I don't find that catchy tunes take your focus off the gurbani.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38567
But you may be right that with some people it may do just that.
But on the whole, I don't think it has a greater influence to do that. Personally, I have found that I have learnt much more gurbani with this personal approach.
It helps me, but that doesn't mean for everyone. It all depends on how we actually all listen to music, as this does vary between individuals as some will focus on certain elements only.

Randip Singh · #22 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 17:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanwaljit Singh

Catchy tunes will make you catch the tune but not the Gurbani.

I disagree on this point. The Guru's made entire Bani rhym and able to be set to music and Raag for a reason. People catch the tune, they then recite the words that go with the tune, and then hopefully learn the meaning of the words.

I'm an example of this.

Ishna · #23 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 18:39 PM

Catchy, meaningful tunes are 50% of the shabad. It is one thing to sing a shabad in a bland way, it is another to sing it with melody, one is bland, the other can make the soul soar and emphasizes the meaning of the Shabad.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #24 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 19:43 PM

The BOTTOM LIne is ATTENTION...whatever gets ATTENTION to the SHABAD is GOOD..whatever take it away is BAD. PERIOD.

Example form Guru Period. Some people approached Guru Arjun ji after kirtan and complained that a cetain person insulted them during kirtan. What did he say asked Guru ji and they all repeated the words allegedly insulting to them. Then Guru Ji asked..and WHICH SHABAD were the ragis singing and which Shabad did I do katha on ?? None could answer.

Sikhs TODAY are the same. We all know who did what..who wore what..who has the latest handphone..computer chip car..and the ladies latest suit..lipstick etc etc..BUT ask WHICH SHABAD..which HUKMNAMA ??...I rest my case.

BaljinderS · #25 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 20:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

Catchy, meaningful tunes are 50% of the shabad. It is one thing to sing a shabad in a bland way, it is another to sing it with melody, one is bland, the other can make the soul soar and emphasizes the meaning of the Shabad.

I agree 100%. I am quite surprised and even shocked that we don't see the value and importance how gurbani is sung. I don't think any Sikh would be questioning the value of this if they were taught classical music. I am failing to understand why we don't want to listen to gurbani in raags its written. What is going on with Sikhs?? Why are we doing this? Do we not have any love for Sikhi anymore?? Do we not like what Guru's have given to us? I feel sad.... what are we doing? What do we want going forward?

Parma · #26 (**permalink**) 01-Jun-2012, 22:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BaljinderS

I agree 100%. I am quite surprised and even shocked that we don't see the value and importance how gurbani is sung. I don't think any Sikh would be questioning the value of this if they were taught classical music. I am failing to understand why we don't want to listen to gurbani in raags its written. What is going on with Sikhs?? Why are we doing this? Do we not have any love for Sikhi anymore?? Do we not like what Guru's have given to us? I feel sad.... what are we doing? What do we want going forward?

Baljinder ji I don't think anybody is saying they do not want to listen to gurbani in the raags it is written. That is what people want to do. They would just like to be able to express the gurbani in different variations of music other than classical music! Nothing else! Some people find classical music nice to listen to others find it boring some find r'n'b type music nice to listen to others do not some find heavy metal nice to listen to other do not. The sat sangat is diverse and I think we should cater to the sat sangat as that is who the Guru Granth Sahib is reaching out to. So long as no one is distorting the message! Let's be clear we are all talking about the music and not the message here! Like lucky ji stated people that do try and make an effort to do this type of seva are discouraged which is a shame with slander of Kuchi Bani and so forth, which should be stopped they are not helping people fall in love with the gurbani they are turning people away! This is the point of this!

Kanwaljit Singh · #27 (**permalink**) 02-Jun-2012, 00:32 AM

I may be wrong, but music has different effects too!

Quote:

Find r'n'b type music nice to listen to others do not some find heavy metal nice to listen to other do not.

The raags of Gurbani have a calming effect, which is what mind needs. I am sorry I don't think RnB or Rock would calm your mind. And I feel it is a bit of ego, if we try and deviate from the Raags and mix music of different themes with Gurbani.

As an example, listen to this rendition of Gurbani and tell me if it doesn't encapture your heart and soul:

Nahi ***** Re Baba Raam Naam - Professor Kartar Singh - Live Sri Harmandir Sahib - YouTube

It is OK to use western instruments as long as you can add the soothing sounds which come with Gurbani. Anyone trying band baaja and sing Gurbani is making a mess of things. And it is not so uncommon to use band baja along with Gurbani in today's nagar kirtans. They shout and shriek, thinking they are taking it to next level, no one listens or absorbs what is being said.

More points:

Source http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Raga

Moods and feelings
A raag creates an atmosphere which is associated with particular feelings and sentiments. If Bhairav has the serenity of early dawn, Darbari has the splendour of midnight. Bhupali can never be associated with mirth and fun whereas Bageshri is more suited for a lighthearted romantic mood. The Raagmala paintings of Rajasthan depict beautifully the underlying 'ras' or mood expressed by every raag.
In the time cycle , you first have raags based on 'komal swaras', what we call the flat notes. In all the komal swar raags you ( Bhairav, Gunkali), you have one thing in common: the note rishabh and dhaivat. The fourth note, madhyam, is also a komal swar, but it is used in teevra swar (sharp) when singing the twilight raags after sunset to define the change in mood between the two hours before sunrise and after sunset. So, with the subtle change in one note, the entire mood of the raag changes. All these twilight melodies called Sandhiprakash raags in our musical terminology, covey a certain pathos, a certain yearning. These are followed by the raags of the first quarter of the morning and night, such as Todi, Asavari, and then the midday and midnight raags.