Avatars of Vishnu and the Satguru

you already admitted in your previous posts to be Maya inflicted
You are confusing a great many things. I have always made a distinction between the demi-gods who are Maya-inflicted, and the das avtaaras who are Paramjyoti in the sansaar.

God is infinity. But all the infinite millions are ONE. There is a secret... no one is "unimportant. Not even a poor man. Not even a shudra.. Because the Divine Beloved One is All-pervading." The das avtaaras are important to us because they belong to our world. They are manifestations of God's Light in "Our" world so we can perceive HIM, the Divine Beloved One. Why would we ignore the Lights God sends us? Where in Gurbani does it say the avataars are "deceiving" the world, with your personal implication of "false light?" Why do you think evil of the avataars of God?

When Guruji speaking from God-consciousness tells of the ebbing and flowing of worlds upon worlds, and the Divine Play which dances even unchanged through countless eras and unimaginable destruction and demise of every old way, why do you think it means something negative about Avataaras? When Guruji speaking from God-consciousness in Gurbani writes there are worlds upon worlds and millions of avataaras, why can you not see the glory of God shining Light into infinity? Why do you presume them to be "worthless?" Can you survive without the sun? Because the sun is physical and will pass away someday, does that make it "worthless?" You are not speaking from God-consciousness. Without the sun you would wither and die. The sun is wonderful. The earth is wonderful. The Life is precious. And the Satguru Avataar who manifests the infinite Light of nirgun God into sansaara is the most wonderful of all.

Raam cried. This is a sin? You don't cry? Guruji never cried in any of His human forms? He was impersonal and inhuman? Guruji didn't suffer torture? Guruji didn't suffer grief? You have an unrealistic concept of avataars. They are fully human, and when merged in God-consciousness, fully Divine. How does this make Him "deceitful?" One of the most famous verses in the Christian Bible which speaks of the Beloved relationship Guru Jesus has with His disciples and with the suffering world is the shortest sentence. It consists of only two words, yet it is the most famous sentence in the Bible:

"Jesus wept."


The reason this sentence is so famous is because it shows so clearly, Jesus loved us. Raam wept because He loved Sita. Sita is representation of the atma captured by the demon. And Raam represents the Paramatma who wants to be always in the Presence of His Beloved. Raam wept because He loves all of us. That is why Raam Naam is a boat of mukti.

ਜਸਰਥ ਰਾਇ ਨੰਦੁ ਰਾਜਾ ਮੇਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਚੰਦੁ ਪ੍ਰਣਵੈ ਨਾਮਾ ਤਤੁ ਰਸੁ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੀਜੈ ॥੪॥੪॥
jasarathh raae nandh raajaa maeraa raam chandh pranavai naamaa thath ras anmrith peejai ||4||4||
My Sovereign Lord King is Raam Chandra,the Son of the King Dasrat'h; prays Naam Dayv,I drink in the Ambrosial Nectar. ||4||4||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 973

It is amazing gymnastics by which Sikhs come out with the unbelievable theory, that Raam doesn't mean Raam. It means Raam to everyone else, Sufis, Ramanadis, Kabirpanthis, Vaishnavas. But when Gurbani japs the Naam of Raam, it ceases to be Raam, and becomes only nirguna. Amazing. Don't you understand that in every tradition which japs Raam Naam, it is both sarguna AND nirguna?

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੈ ਤੈ ਮਾਣਿਓ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਘੁਵੰਸੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
thraethai thai maaniou raam raghuvans kehaaeiou ||
In the Silver Age of Traytaa Yuga, You were called Raam of the Raghu dynasty.

ਦੁਆਪੁਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰਿ ਕੰਸੁ ਕਿਰਤਾਰਥੁ ਕੀਓ ॥
dhuaapur kirasan muraar kans kirathaarathh keeou ||
In the Brass Age of Dwaapur Yuga, You were Krishna; You killed Mur the demon and saved Kans.

ਉਗ੍ਰਸੈਣ ਕਉ ਰਾਜੁ ਅਭੈ ਭਗਤਹ ਜਨ ਦੀਓ ॥
ougrasain ko raaj abhai bhagatheh jan dheeou ||
You blessed Ugrasain with a kingdom, and You blessed Your humble devotees with fearlessness.

ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰੁ ਅੰਗਦੁ ਅਮਰੁ ਕਹਾਇਓ ॥
kalijug pramaan naanak gur angadh amar kehaaeiou ||
In the Iron Age, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, You are known and accepted as Guru Nanak, Guru Angad and Guru Amar Das.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1390

ਧਰਣੀਧਰ ਈਸ ਨਰਸਿੰਘ ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhharaneedhhar ees narasingh naaraaein ||
The Support of the Earth, the man-lion, the Supreme Lord God.

ਦਾੜਾ ਅਗ੍ਰੇ ਪ੍ਰਿਥਮਿ ਧਰਾਇਣ ॥
dhaarraa agrae prithham dhharaaein ||
The Protector who tears apart demons with His teeth, the Upholder of the earth.

ਬਾਵਨ ਰੂਪੁ ਕੀਆ ਤੁਧੁ ਕਰਤੇ ਸਭ ਹੀ ਸੇਤੀ ਹੈ ਚੰਗਾ ॥੩॥
baavan roop keeaa thudhh karathae sabh hee saethee hai changaa ||3||
O Creator, You assumed the form of the pygmy to humble the demons; You are the Lord God of all. ||3||

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਰਾਮਚੰਦ ਜਿਸੁ ਰੂਪੁ ਨ ਰੇਖਿਆ ॥
sree raamachandh jis roop n raekhiaa ||
You are the Great Raam Chand, who has no form or feature.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1082

Narasingh Narain. Sri Raam Chand. Seriously the Naam of Raam is clearly spoken in context of the das avtaaras of Vishnu. Later the pauri clearly says the four-armed Lord holding conch, mace, and chakr. But still this is not Raam Chandra of Avodya? It is not Haree Krishna of Vrindaban and gopis? Then why does Gurbani itself contradict you?

ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਮੇਰੇ ਪਿਆਰਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਮੇਰਾ ਚੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
chojee maerae govindhaa chojee maerae piaariaa har prabh maeraa chojee jeeo ||
Playful is my Lord of the Universe; playful is my Beloved. My Lord God is wondrous and playful.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਕਾਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਗੋਪੀ ਖੋਜੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae kaanha oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aapae gopee khojee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself created Krishna, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself is the milkmaids who seek Him.

ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਭ ਘਟ ਭੋਗਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਰਸੀਆ ਭੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
har aapae sabh ghatt bhogadhaa maerae govindhaa aapae raseeaa bhogee jeeo ||
The Lord Himself enjoys every heart, O my Lord of the Universe; He Himself is the Ravisher and the Enjoyer.

ਹਰਿ ਸੁਜਾਣੁ ਨ ਭੁਲਈ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿੰਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜੋਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੧॥
har sujaan n bhulee maerae govindhaa aapae sathigur jogee jeeo ||1||
The Lord is All-knowing - He cannot be fooled, O my Lord of the Universe. He is the True Guru, the Yogi. ||1||

ਆਪੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਦਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਗੋਵਿਦਾ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਖੇਲੈ ਬਹੁ ਰੰਗੀ ਜੀਉ ॥
aapae jagath oupaaeidhaa maerae govidhaa har aap khaelai bahu rangee jeeo ||
He Himself created the world, O my Lord of the Universe; the Lord Himself plays in so many ways!
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 174

ਅਖੀ ਮੀਟ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਧਰਿ ਹਾਹਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਕਰੈ ਬਿਲਲਾਂਦੀ ।
akhee meet dhiaanu dhari haahaa krisan karai bilalaandee|
Crying, totally dejected and helpless, she closed her eyes. Single-mindedly she invoked Krishna for help.

ਕਪੜ ਕੋਟੁ ਉਸਾਰਿਓਨੁ ਥਕੇ ਦੂਤ ਨ ਪਾਰਿ ਵਸਾਂਦੀ ।
kaparh kotu usaariaonu dakay doot n paari vasaandee|
The servants were taking off the clothes from her body but more layers of clothes formed a fort around her; the servants got tired but the layers of clothes were never ending.

ਹਥ ਮਰੋੜਨਿ ਸਿਰੁ ਧੁਣਨਿ ਪਛੋਤਾਨਿ ਕਰਨਿ ਜਾਹਿ ਜਾਂਦੀ ।
had marorhani siru dhunani pachhotaani karani jaahi jaandee|
The servants were now writhing and frustrated on their abortive attempt and felt that they themselves were ashamed.

ਘਰਿ ਆਈ ਠਾਕੁਰ ਮਿਲੇ ਪੈਜ ਰਹੀ ਬੋਲੇ ਸਰਮਾਂਦੀ ।
ghari aaee tdaakur milay paij rahee bolay saramaandee|
On reaching home, Dropati was asked by Lord Krishna whether she was saved in the assembly.

ਨਾਥ ਅਨਾਥਾਂ ਬਾਣਿ ਧੁਰਾਂਦੀ ॥੮॥
naad anaadaan baani dhuraandee ॥8॥
She shyly replied, “Since perennial times you are living up to your reputation of being father of the fatherless ones.”
~Vaar 10 Pauri 8 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

ਚਰਣ ਕਵਲ ਵਿਚਿ ਪਦਮੁ ਹੈ ਝਿਲਮਿਲ ਝਲਕੇ ਵਾਂਗੀ ਤਾਰੇ ।
charan kaval vichi padamu hai jhilamil jhalakay vaangee taaray|
The lotus sign in his foot was illuminating like a star.

ਬਧਕੁ ਆਇਆ ਭਾਲਦਾ ਮਿਰਗੈ ਜਾਣਿ ਬਾਣੁ ਲੈ ਮਾਰੇ ।
badhaku aaiaa bhaaladaa miragai jaani baanu|ai maaray|
A hunter came and considering it an eye of a deer, shot the arrow.

ਦਰਸਨ ਡਿਠੋਸੁ ਜਾਇ ਕੈ ਕਰਣ ਪਲਾਵ ਕਰੇ ਪੁਕਾਰੇ ।
darasan ditdosu jaai kai karan palaav karay pukaaray|
As he approached, he realised it was Krishna. He became full of sorrow and begged forgiveness.

ਗਲਿ ਵਿਚਿ ਲੀਤਾ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਜੀ ਅਵਗੁਣੁ ਕੀਤਾ ਹਰਿ ਨ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ।
gali vichi|eetaa krisan jee avagunu keetaa hari n chitaaray|
Krishna ignored his wrong act and embraced him.

ਕਰਿ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਸੰਤੋਖਿਆ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰਣੁ ਬਿਰਦੁ ਬੀਚਾਰੇ ।
kari kirapaa santokhiaa patit udhaaranu biradu beechaaray|
Gracefully Krishna asked him to be full of perseverance and gave sactuary to the wrongdoer.

ਭਲੇ ਭਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਮੰਨੀਅਨਿ ਬੁਰਿਆਂ ਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਕਾਜ ਸਵਾਰੇ ।
bhalay bhalay kari manneeani buriaan day hari kaaj savaaray|
The good is said good by everyone but the works of the evil doers are set right by the Lord only.

ਪਾਪ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਪਤਿਤ ਉਧਾਰੇ ॥੨੩॥੧੦॥
paap karaynday patit udhaaray ॥23॥10॥
He has liberated many fallen sinners.
~Vaar 10 Pauri 23 of Vaaran Bhai Gurdas Ji

Does Vaaran and Gurbani make Krishna sound the way you do? deceitful, Maya-inflicted, boasting, vain? No! Gurbani calls Him the Lord God. And before you go into some delusion about disgusting kaam, you should know that Krishna is known as the stealer of hearts who takes devotees by force, because His love is so sweet, it is irresistible. In this respect, these are metaphors for the soul being swooned by a love affair with the Divine Beloved and not some sordid tale of seduction. Here is an example of this kind of Divine Love. Rather than something sordid, it speaks of the highest mysticism.


There is a story that Radha, watching the sweet lips of Krishna wrapped all night around His flute, became jealous. "Why don't you wrap your lips around me and play me like you play your flute," she pouted. And Guru Krishna turned the flute sideways and said, "See, it is completely empty. When you divest yourself of all things I will come to fill you." This isn't sexual love, but it is spoken like that. It is the highest spiritual love. It is about the total surrender of the chela to the Guru in authentic Guru-disciple relationship. This is the highest love on earth precisely because it is completely pure. It is the devotional love, bhakti, through which the Presence of God which is Love can flow. And once you have tasted true bhakti, you become a bairaagi on this earth, because nothing else will ever satisfy you. So in this sense, the Divine Beloved has stolen your affection and ravished His Beloved.

All I Was Doing Was Breathing

Something has reached out and taken in the beams of my eyes.
There is a longing, it is for his body, for every hair of that dark body.
All I was doing was being, and the Dancing Energy came by my house.
His face looks curiously like the moon, I saw it from the side, smiling.
My family says: "Don't ever see him again!" And they imply things in a low voice.
But my eyes have their own life; they laugh at rules, and know whose they are.
I believe I can bear on my shoulders whatever you want to say of me.
Mira says: Without the energy that lifts mountains, how am I to live?
~Mirabai

The Freshness

When it's cold and raining,
you are more beautiful.

And the snow brings me
even closer to your lips.

The inner secret, that which was never born,
you are that freshness, and I am with you now.

I can't explain the goings,
or the comings. You enter suddenly,

and I am nowhere again.
Inside the majesty.

~Jallaluddin Rumi

The problem with most Sikhs is they think only Shri Guru Granth Sahib is a legitimate Guru in a world of fakes. If you only knew. What's to gain by belittling as worthless the Guru-chela bond another person has? Does it somehow validate anyone to put down Sri Krishna as "boasting" "deceitful" or "deluded?" Gurbani says He is the same as Guruji. Bhagavad-Gita is one of the classic spiritual scriptures. It's absolutely magnificent. You can't even touch a single page of it's depth, beauty and wisdom with your negative comments. They reflect back on you like a mirror.


Brahma is a demi-god. Maha-Vishnu and the das avtaaras are sargun saroop of the nirguna. You complain about the picture all the time veer ji. So explain, why did Guruji paint that exact same picture with words in Gurbani calling as Supreme Lord God what you call "imaginary" and "stuck in Maya?" Why do you contradict Gurbani? All you do is look for insults. Never do you try to appreciate and understand a different perspective.

ਸ੍ਰੀਰੰਗ ਬੈਕੁੰਠ ਕੇ ਵਾਸੀ ॥
sreerang baikunth kae vaasee ||
The Lover of greatness, who dwells in heaven.

ਮਛੁ ਕਛੁ ਕੂਰਮੁ ਆਗਿਆ ਅਉਤਰਾਸੀ ॥
mashh kashh kooram aagiaa aoutharaasee ||
By the Pleasure of His Will, He took incarnation as the great fish and the tortoise.

ਕੇਸਵ ਚਲਤ ਕਰਹਿ ਨਿਰਾਲੇ ਕੀਤਾ ਲੋੜਹਿ ਸੋ ਹੋਇਗਾ ॥੮॥
kaesav chalath karehi niraalae keethaa lorrehi so hoeigaa ||8||
The Lord of beauteous hair, the Worker of miraculous deeds, whatever He wishes, comes to pass. ||8||

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated and enticed. ||9||

ਬਨਮਾਲਾ ਬਿਭੂਖਨ ਕਮਲ ਨੈਨ ॥
banamaalaa bibhookhan kamal nain ||
He is adorned with garlands of flowers, with lotus eyes.

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1082

Somehow the above pauri doesn't sound like description of someone stuck in Maya, deluded, boasting or imaginary at all. But sounds like powerful spiritual symbolism very clearly describing the sargun as nirguna.


You never answered anything. You just throw out insults to demean and to deny what you can neither accept nor understand.

If Guru Nanak is merged with God, then there is no limited sectarian personality of Guru Nanak anymore, such as you describe, a True Sun in a mist of fake pretenders. But the Universal Divine Light is pervading in the hearts of all people, equally, without despising anyone. In the words of the Apostle Paul, "I have become all things to all men so that all through me might be saved." As Gurbani tells you there are millions and millions of avataaras, so you see as worthless, what you should see as millions of Satguru Nanak's. No one can claim some limited sense of proprietary ownership, like this baseball team against that baseball team. What kind of attitude says, "We have Guru Nanak, thay have all the fakes, poor them." How silly. Spirituality doesn't work that way. The God is God. Every form is God. God's Light shines in avataars to set captive beings free. No one can insult or degrade such a high and pure message of Divine Love.

"The wise who knows the Self as bodiless within the bodies, as unchanging among changing things, as great and omnipresent, does never grieve". "That self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding, nor by much learning. He whom the Self chooses, by him the Self can be gained. The Self chooses him (his body) as his own". But he who has not first turned away from his wickedness, who is not tranquil, and subdued, or whose mind is not at rest, he can never obtain the Self (even) by knowledge. ~Katha Upanishad 1.2.22-24

 
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Know Thyself As Soul, According to Lord Mahavira and Jainism


"Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself.." (Yeshua, The Book of Thomas the Spiritual Athlete, Nag Hammadi Library)







The greatest mistake of a soul is non-recognition of its real Self, and it can only be rectified by recognizing itself..

Know thyself; recognize thyself; be immersed in thyself --- you will attain Godhood..

--- Mahavira (Tirthankar Bhagwan Mahavira)


By merely meditating upon Him all inflictions of the living souls (jivas) which have arisen from the world are destroyed. These are not destroyed through any other means. He is the Lord of three worlds, and is the Indestructible Supreme Soul..

Whatever is the Supreme Soul, so am I. Whatever is my essential nature, is the essence of Supreme Soul. Therefore, I am fitted for meditating on my inner Supreme Soul --- none other..

--- Pundit Puja Tika
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/22764-avatars-of-vishnu-and-the-satguru.html


The only method to know Consciousness is to experience (the true nature of) one's Self and thus to purify and uplift the mental tendencies. It is most desirable for the practitioner to search for one's self by one's self. There is no other means other than meditation, which verifies subjectively and substantiates objectively that which previously was only known through listening or teaching..
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764

--- Acharya Tulsi


This soul in itself is illumined by the light of knowledge. However, in this body it is covered by three coverings: the gross body and two subtle bodies (Taijas and Karman shareer). As long as this soul does not recognize its enlightened form, the bondage remains..

An ascetic established in the Self (Atma) is liberated. The ascetic who is not thus established does not attain liberation through mere observance of niyama (outer observances). The state of being established in Atma is the Right Faith (belief verified by experience), and firmness in this is the ‘discerning character endowed with knowledge’..

---Jainist Sutras quoted in the book, The Harmony of All Religions


The person who has recognized the true nature of the soul (Atma) and experienced it through self-knowledge, merges into the Pure Form and becomes Paramatma (Lord, the Supreme Soul)..

--- Pundit Puja Tika


Human beings without knowledge of the Supreme Soul wander through the law of karma in the deep forest of the world. By the knowledge of the Supreme Soul a human being attains a prominent place --- even greater than Indra (king of the gods). Know Him to be the true manifested Supreme Soul. He is the abode of all joys. He is the brilliant light of knowledge. He is the protector. He is the Supreme Person beyond thinking and His nature can not be described..

The One, who can not be described by words and is not conceivable as matter or material stuff is the Supreme Soul. He is infinite, transcends Sound, has no birth, and is not subject to wandering in the world. With a still and tranquil mind meditate on the Supreme Soul..

--- Jainist text called, Jnanarnva

The Upanishads: Meditate to Find Gnosis of the One
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764
All is change [samsara] in the world of the senses,
But changeless is the supreme Lord of Love.
Meditate on him, be absorbed in him.
Wake up from this dream of separateness.
Know God and all fetters will fall away.
No longer identifying yourself
With the body, go beyond birth and death.
All your desires will be fulfilled in him
Who is One without a second.
Know him to be enshrined in your heart
always.
Truly there is nothing more in Life to know.
Meditate and realise this world
Is filled with the presence of God.
--- The Shvetashvatara Upanishad, Hindu Scripture
"The Upanishads", Eknath Easwaran translation



"Indrasya sakhyamribhavah samaanashurmanornapaato apaso dadhanvire.
Saudhanvanaaso amritatvamerire vishtvee shameebhih sukritah sukrityayaa."
TRANSLATION:
May the learned persons, illuminated and rendered more capable owing to acquiring the true knowledge and true justice, attain to the company of the Majestic Supreme Lord or the Most Prosperous Emperor (i.e. God). May the reflective men take on the highest or supreme actions which do not allow their mind to decline or fall down into abominable/despicable/avoidable acts, or, may the reflective and thoughtful people be conscientious, righteous in their actions! May those persons of the highest wisdom attain to the ultimate immortality (freedom from rebirth) reaching into the highest realm of the Supreme Lord by being the best sons or disciples and displaying righteous peace-yielding conduct! Further, may the adept and learned people perform wise actions and being equipped with the best of means perform the highest actions in the most artistic or sublime way! May with their (rightful worldly) actions they make a name for themselves in their country and earn their livelihood!
COMMENTARY (by Maharshi Mehi Paramhans):
This sacred verse counsels one to accept the disciple-hood of a Guru possessing the highest knowledge, and to be righteous in one's conduct so as to attain to immortality by ascending oneself into the loftiest of realms, the realm of God, and also to make worldly progress by being learned, conscientious and adept-at-work thus getting proximity and attracting the attention of the King, the rulers, or the higher authorities. Vedas do not command to devote all the time and resources at one's disposal only to efforts for attaining Moksha (liberation) forsaking the duties towards the nation (and other worldly & household assignments). It instructs to make a balanced progress on both the fronts. That who performs actions as ordained by true knowledge is a Karmayogi; he, having attained the state of equipoise and equanimity, also keeps discharging his worldly duties. But the learning and initiation into the right methodology or way for attaining such a sublime state cannot be possible without humbly seeking the noble company of, and reverence for a Sadguru. Verse 34 of chapter 4, verse 6 of chapter 13 and verse 14 of chapter 16 of the sacred book "Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta" underline the necessity of serving the Guru. Sants have very firmly stressed this need (of serving a Guru). When Vedas, as is obvious from this Veda-mantra, have so clearly laid out the necessity (of serving a Guru), how can any other Holy Scripture speak to the contrary? This mantra orders to progress by harmoniously balancing the two paths - those of this world and the Supreme Cause. Therefore, this hymn can be said to be the primary formula or mantra of Karmayoga (Yoga of action). Shrimad Bhagvad Geeta is mainly a scripture primarily devoted to the Karmayoga.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764
Karmayoga consists of progressing or marching ahead on the aforementioned courses. Karmayoga can not be accomplished by sacrificing any one of these two. It is absolutely essential that the seeker of Moksha lives and acts in this world adopting the real way of Karmayoga in order to attain his Ultimate goal. That is why, very frequent allusions can be found in Sant Vaani (sayings of Sants) to this golden principle.

Compare these two - do you find a link ? Sons of Light and Sons of God is quite similar - meaning disciple(s) of God.

ਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਾ ਆਪਿ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764
gur saevaa aap har bhaavai ||
Service to the Guru is pleasing to the Lord Himself.

ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੁ ਬਲਭਦ੍ਰੁ ਗੁਰ ਪਗ ਲਗਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ॥
kirasan balabhadhra gur pag lag dhhiaavai ||
Even Krishna and Balbhadar meditated on the Lord, falling at the Guru's Feet.

ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਰਿ ਆਪਿ ਤਰਾਵੈ ॥੪॥੫॥੪੩॥
naanak guramukh har aap tharaavai ||4||5||43||
O Nanak, the Lord Himself saves the Gurmukhs. ||4||5||43||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 165
Clearly Gurbani is calling Krishna a Gurmukh who is surrendered to Guruji's feet. If Krishna is described as a Gurumukh in Gurbani, why do Sikhs say He is NOT merged with nirguna, but only egotistically boasting in a false way?(quote Harjas Kaur Khalsa Ji)

Dear Sangat ji, now first try to understand the above Gurbani quote, and then we shall see if Harjas kaur Khalsa ji’s is correct.
Very clearly it is said in the first Vaak of above Gurbani quote that it is the real Guru seva( obeying the Guru) which pleases Almighty, next Vaak says clearly that Krishna also meditated on HIM by taking refuge in Guru, next following Vaak says, it is HIM who saves those who follow Guru. Where is Krishna called Guru or Gurmukh? Isn’t a lie to prove him a Gurmukh, Krishna in Bhagwat Geeta boasts to be HIM( Creator ), Guru bachan says he mediated on Him by taking refuge in Guru. See the difference. It has nothing to do what Bhain ji is trying to say, obviously her second hand understanding of Gurbani and her desparate determination to convert Sikhism into Hinduism are playing this role of distorting of Gurbani , forgive me, I have to say that because this is what it has been going on. You say a word against Veda, Krishna, Hindu, she will jump upon you, all the same, you are free to say any thing against Gurbani, she won’t care. Now lets see the next one:
ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਮਧੁਸੂਦਨੁ ਨਿਸਤਾਰੇ ॥
guramukh madhhusoodhan nisathaarae ||
The Gurmukhs are emancipated by the Lord.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸੰਗੀ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨ ਮੁਰਾਰੇ ॥
guramukh sangee kirasan muraarae ||
The Lord becomes the Gurmukh's Companion.

ਦਇਆਲ ਦਮੋਦਰੁ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਈਐ ਹੋਰਤੁ ਕਿਤੈ ਨ ਭਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੨॥
dhaeiaal dhamodhar guramukh paaeeai horath kithai n bhaathee jeeo ||2||
The Gurmukh finds the Merciful Lord. He is not found any other way. ||2||
ਨਿਰਹਾਰੀਕੇਸਵਨਿਰਵੈਰਾ ॥
nirehaaree kaesav niravairaa ||
He does not need to eat; His Hair is Wondrous and Beautiful; He is free of hate.

ਕੋਟਿ ਜਨਾ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਪੈਰਾ ॥
kott janaa jaa kae poojehi pairaa ||
Millions of people worship His Feet.( Lord's)

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਜਾ ਕੈ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਸੋਈ ਭਗਤੁ ਇਕਾਤੀ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥
guramukh hiradhai jaa kai har har soee bhagath eikaathee jeeo ||3||
He alone is a devotee, who becomes Gurmukh, whose heart is filled with the Lord, Har, Har. ||3|
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 98
One of the traditional titles of Krishna is "the Lord of beautiful hair," Keshava. So Gurbani equates Krishna as a disciple, as a Guru, as merged with the Divine and as the Transcendant Lord Himself.
Again, in the above Gurbani quote, it doesnt talk about Krishna but about the Lord, if we believe for a second that Bhain ji is right, then why in the previous above quote, Guru ji says Krishna also meditated on HIM by taking refuge in Guru; suddenly now Gurbani has turned towards Krishna as a GOD? No, reality is simple, in Gurbani, Lord is addressed with many names, one of them is Krishan Muraar( eko Krishanan. Also Allah etc.) Never forget that Gurbani also considers Krishan as one of the millions HE created. It just doesn’t add up, distortion is going on, take one Vaak from here and one from there and keep beating the drums which is getting very annoying ( due ti their being lies).

Guru Sahibaan have defined all these terms, if one just float on the words that doesn’t give license to one to force ones own views on Sikhs, it is unfortunate that without understanding the depth of Guru bachan, many would just remain away from Guru Message. Through all Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji, only one Lord and love and pining for Him are dominating factors, the rest are references to make people understand HIS sargun Sroop and Nirguna at the same time. As these guys get references, so do other creations because Guru ji also says in context of His sargun Sroop” O my Lord, you yourself are fish, you yourself is fisherman and the bait”( Mehl-1). Should the Sikhs then look for Fisherman, fish and bait to contemplate on them as special ones and start revering them? Point is simple, when one is defining all HIS creation, individuals talked about in the past, will be referred. For Sikhs, HIS Nirguna Sroop is to be contemplated, to please Guru ji, this is a written Hukam by Guru ji himself, all the rest should not detour your attention. Follow Guru and save yourself from misguiding illusions. Look at this snatana sect, it has degraded the society, exploited the society, now in today’s age, to look good, they talk about Sikhism or Budhism as their part and their Gurus as incarnation of Vishnu who himself couldn’t get MUKTI, poor conceptual thing still incarnates. It sounds so funny to my rationality that it makes me laugh when I see this false campaign against Sikhism or Buddhism. Grapes are sour as their own agenda along with religious belief, do not match even high standrads of humanity and human rights.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764

This is what I have to say today, I won’t be able to respond to abnormally long posts due to my limits to Internet till August 30th. Thanks.

Quote:

Through all Sree Guru Granth Sahib ji, only one Lord and love and pining for Him are dominating factors, the rest are references to make people understand HIS sargun Sroop and Nirguna at the same time. As these guys get references, so do other creations because Guru ji also says in context of His sargun Sroop” O my Lord, you yourself are fish, you yourself is fisherman and the bait”( Mehl-1). Should the Sikhs then look for Fisherman, fish and bait to contemplate on them as special ones and start revering them?

to PK70

This thread was started on August 21, 2008 -5 GMT to accommodate discussions of avatars of Vishnu and their role in sanatan philosophy. All comments posted prior to August 21 and were moved to this thread after August 21, 2008 are organized in chronological order, according to the date and time of their posting.

They were a legitimate response to topics brought up by the Gurbani vichaar of sant Jagjit Singh ji Harkhowal and not relegated to some far away corner as mere discussion of Vishnu avataars in sanatan philosophy, but a literal part of the Gurmat vichaar of Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji regarding the nature of sarguna.

And once again thank you for the deletion of my response to pk70, and no mention whatsoever of his personal attacks directed against me.

pk 70 quoted
I would like to hear from some one who can quote a single Vaak from Sree Guru Granth Sahib Ji that says that the people who have low intellect or consciousness, should start from Sargun Sroop and who have better should contemplate directly on The Infinite Lord. Here is a direct Hukam of our Satguru, should we ignore it or obey it. Let the world go what way it wants to go, I shall rather follow Guru
veer ji may be the following shabad may answer your question a bit
ibnu dyKy aupjY nhI Awsw ] jo dIsY so hoie ibnwsw ] brn sihq jo jwpY nwmu ] so jogI kyvl inhkwmu ]1] prcY, rwmu rvY jau koeI ] pwrsu prsY duibDw n hoeI ]1] rhwau ] so muin, mn kI duibDw Kwie ] ibnu duAwry qRY lok smwie ] mn kw suBwau sBu koeI krY ] krqw hoie su AnBY rhY ]2] Pl kwrn PUlI bnrwie ] Plu lwgw qb PUlu iblwie ] igAwnY kwrn krm AiBAwsu ] igAwnu BieAw qh krmhnwsu ]3]iGRq kwrn diD mQY sieAwn ] jIvq mukq sdw inrbwn ] kih rivdws prm bYrwg ] irdY rwmu kI n jpisABwg ]
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22764

To achieve the giyan, the karams are performed but when the giyan is achieved the karams should vanish.

Bhul chuk maaf
Roopsidhu