Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · #1 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 00:26 AM

Quote:

"According to AGGS, Guru Nanak rejected all the essentials of Hinduism:...caste system."

Okay let's analyze if this is also true in Gurbani.

(ਵਰਨਾ), Vaarana: caste, color.

ਵਰਨਾ ਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
varanaa varan n bhaavanee jae kisai vaddaa karaee ||
One class of people does not like the other, when one has been made great.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 53

(ਜਾਤਿ ਪਤਿ), Jaath path: social status, class, honor.

ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||
Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 733

The question is, does Gurbani reject the "Hindu" caste system?

ਕੁਲਿ ਸੋਢੀ ਗੁਰ ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਤਨੁ ਧਰਮ ਧੁਜਾ ਅਰਜੁਨੁ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਾ ॥੬॥
kul sodtee gur raamadhaas than dhharam dhhujaa arajun har bhagathaa ||6||
In the Sodhi family, is born Arjun, the son of Guru Raam Daas, the holder of the banner of Dharma and the devotee of God. ||6||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1407

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 923

If Gurubani rejects the "essentials of Hindu" traditions, caste system, etc., why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family and with the Tilak mark signifying Indic traditions and Hindu religion?

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In Hinduism, the tilaka or tilak (Sanskrit: तिलक tilaka)[1] ...The tilaka is decorative and is also an identifying mark. Worn by a priest, ascetic, or worshiper it shows which Hindu tradition he follows. It may be made with sandalwood paste, ashes (vibhuti), kumkum, sindhoor, clay, or another substance. The pastes are applied to the forehead and in some cases to the upper part of the head. Tilakas are also discussed in the Vasudeva Upanishad...

Different Hindu traditions use different materials and shapes to make the tilaka.
Saivites typically use ashes and draw their tilakas as three horizontal lines (tripundra).
Vaishnavas apply clay from a holy river or place (such as Vrindavan or the Yamuna river) which is sometimes mixed with sandalwood paste. They apply the material in two vertical lines, which may be connected at the bottom, forming either a simple U shape or with an additional marking in the shape of a tulsi leaf. Their tilaka is called the urdhva-pundra.
Ganapatya use red sandal paste (rakta candana).[2]
Shaktas use kumkuma, or powdered red turmeric. They draw one vertical line or dot.
Honorary tilakas (Raj Tilak and Vir Tilak): They are usually applied as a single vertical red line. Raj Tilak will be used while throning kings or inviting prominent personalities. Vir Tilak is used to anoint victors or leaders after a war or a game. Tilaka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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During his stay at Melukote Sri Ramanuja paid much attention to the social aspect of the human community. He laid great emphasis on bringing quality and happiness to human life. He made the temple the central focus of all activity. He included people irrespective of caste/gender/background/economical status, etc in temple activities. Local people were given specific tasks with income that was accountable. He set up neighborhoods in and around the temple for all. He also made arrangements to provide water and other resources for them. http://www.acharya.org/kshetra/tnpur...teHeritage.htm

Caste reform really starts with Vaishnav Hindu saints, such as Ramanuja (1017–1137), with his and promotion of a spiritual philosophy of equality which accepted all castes as spiritual equals. As Guru Nanak Dev Ji (1469-1539), was much later, the reforms of caste equality in regards to spiritual teaching, admittance of women and Muslims and langar-style free kitchens was a feature of Vaishnavism in Indian society.

"Does the wearing of a sacred thread make one a Brahmin? One who is devoted to God (Narayana) alone is a Brahmin." ~Shri Ramanuja
Cited from Sri Ramanuja, His Life, Religion, and Philosophy, published by Sri Ramakrishna Math, Chennai, India.

ਸੋ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਜੋ ਬਿੰਦੇ ਹਰਿ ਸੇਤੀ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਾਤਾ ॥
so braahaman breham jo bindhae har saethee rang raathaa ||
He alone is a Brahmin, who knows the Lord Brahma, and is attuned to the Love of the Lord.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 68

Apart from clarifying spiritual equality, like the Vaishnav Hindu reformers did, Gurbani does NOT say Guruji rejected the caste system. So there is nothing in Gurbani which supports the statement: " "According to AGGS, Guru Nanak rejected all the essentials of Hinduism:...caste system." So per Gurbani, this too is false.

ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 747

ਚਾਰਿ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਆਪਿ ਤਰੈ ਕੁਲ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਧੋ ॥੨॥੫॥੧੧॥
chaar baran chaar aasram hai koee milai guroo gur naanak so aap tharai kul sagal tharaadhho ||2||5||11||
There are four castes, four social classes, and four stages of life. Whoever meets the Guru, Guru Nanak, is himself carried across, and he carries all his ancestors and generations across as well. ||2||5||11||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1297

ਗਾਵਹਿ ਗੁਣ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਖਟ ਦਰਸਨ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾਦਿਕ ਸਿਮਰੰਥਿ ਗੁਨਾ ॥
gaavehi gun baran chaar khatt dharasan brehamaadhik simaranthh gunaa ||
The four castes and the six Shaastras sing His Glorious Praises; Brahma and the others contemplate His Virtues.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1390

ਸੋ ਐਸਾ ਹਰਿ ਸਭਨਾ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਕੈ ਵਲਿ ਹੈ ਤਿਨਿ ਸਭਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰੇ ਖਾਣੀ ਸਭ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਗੋਲੇ ਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਅਗੈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣ ਕਉ ਦੀਏ ॥
so aisaa har sabhanaa kaa prabh sathigur kai val hai thin sabh varan chaarae khaanee sabh srisatt golae kar sathigur agai kaar kamaavan ko dheeeae ||
Such is God, the Lord of all; He is on the True Guru's side. All castes and social classes, the four sources of creation, and the whole universe are slaves of the True Guru; God makes them work for Him.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 851

ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣੁ ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹਹਿ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਵੈ ਸੋ ਪਰਧਾਨੁ ॥
braahaman khathree soodh vais chaar varan chaar aasram hehi jo har dhhiaavai so paradhhaan ||
There are four castes: Brahmin, Kh'shaatriya, Soodra and Vaishya, and there are four stages of life. One who meditates on the Lord, is the most distinguished and renowned.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 861

~Bhul chak maaf

Harjas Kaur Khalsa · #2 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 00:28 AM

Quote:

"According to AGGS, Guru Nanak rejected all the essentials of Hinduism:..gods, goddesses, and idol worship. Guru Nanak also rejected the method or approach of attaining salvation preached by the Semitic and the Indian religions."

And if we are to question the Tilak on Guru Ramdas Ji as being for Hindu religious purposes, as He was being installed as King and Guru, but also what God did He worship?

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God Vasudeva addressing him told as follows:

The Brahmachari (unmarried student of Vedas) and Grahastha (householder) after reciting the following prayer: “Oh God who holds the wheel, mace and conch, Oh Achyutha who is staying in Dwaraka, Oh Govinda, Oh Lotus eyed one,
please protect me, who has surrendered to you.” should apply Urdhva Pundra in his forehead and other 12 places with his pure finger (finger next to the little finger) reciting either the Vishnu Gayathri or the 12 names of the Lord viz., Kesava, Narayana, Madhava, Govinda, Vishnu, Madhusudana, Trivikrama, Vamana, Sreedhara, Hrishikesa, Padmanabha and Damodhara. ~ Vasudeva Upanishad Vedanta Shastras Library | Vasudeva Upanishad

ਸੁੰਦਰ ਕੁੰਡਲ ਮੁਕਟ ਬੈਨ ॥
sundhar kunddal mukatt bain ||
His ear-rings, crown and flute are so beautiful.

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਹੈ ਧਾਰੀ ਮਹਾ ਸਾਰਥੀ ਸਤਸੰਗਾ ॥੧੦॥
sankh chakr gadhaa hai dhhaaree mehaa saarathhee sathasangaa ||10||
He carries the conch, the chakra and the war club; He is the Great Charioteer, who stays with His Saints. ||10||

ਪੀਤ ਪੀਤੰਬਰ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣ ਧਣੀ ॥
peeth peethanbar thribhavan dhhanee ||
The Lord of yellow robes, the Master of the three worlds.

ਜਗੰਨਾਥੁ ਗੋਪਾਲੁ ਮੁਖਿ ਭਣੀ ॥
jagannaathh gopaal mukh bhanee ||
The Lord of the Universe, the Lord of the world; with my mouth, I chant His Name.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1082

ਸੰਖ ਚਕ੍ਰ ਗਦਾ ਪਦਮ ਆਪਿ ਆਪੁ ਕੀਓ ਛਦਮ ਅਪਰੰਪਰ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਲਖੈ ਕਉਨੁ ਤਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥
sankh chakr gadhaa padham aap aap keeou shhadham aparanpar paarabreham lakhai koun thaahi jeeo ||
You are the Infinite Supreme Lord God; with your conch, chakr, war club (altered to say: symbols of power), You deceived Baliraja; who can know You?
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1402

So who is this God with the wheel (chakr), mace and conch who is clearly described and refered to in Gurbani as Parabrahm (nirgun Supreme), and Jaggannath Gopal?

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Jagannath is derived from Jagannātha[1] a Sanskrit name used to describe a deity form of Krishna. The term means master (nātha) of the world (jagat)... is considered amongst Vaishnavas to be a very merciful form of Krishna... Jagannath is worshipped by Hindus all over India.

The worship of Lord Jaganatha is so ancient that there is no accurate record of how long it has been going on. It is strictly forbidden for non-Hindus to enter the Jaganatha temple. Jagannath - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Jagannath was called "Purusottama" since his origin at Puri or Purusottam - Kshetra (the abode of Purusottam) since pre-historic times. The Rig Veda refers to him as the Daru (sacred log of wood) of Purusottama, afloat on the eastern sea. The name "Jagannath" (Lord of the Universe) is invariably a collective representation of the Triad (Jagannath - Balabhadra - Subhadra) and has been in use since the dawn of the last millenium...
Even Maharaj Ranjit Singh wanted to present the Koh-i-noor diamond to Lord Jagannath. jagannath

Govinda and Gopāla are names of Krishna, referring to his youthful occupation as a cowherd.

Both names translate to "cowherd". Sanskrit go means "cow"; pāla and vinda form tatpurusha compounds, literally translating to "finder of cows" and "protector of cows", respectively.

The story of how Krishna was given the name Govinda is described in detail in the Vishnu Purana. After lifting Govardhan hill to protect the villagers and cows of Vrindavan, the lord of devas Indra awarded him the title.

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Gopala Krsna of Krishnaism is often contrasted Vedism when Krishna asks his followers to desist from Vedic demigod, Indra worship. Thus the character of Gopala Krishna is often considered to be non-Vedic, while it can also be based on the popular understanding or rather misunderstanding -of the Rgvedic texts.[1]

A famous prayer called the Bhaja Govindam was composed by Adi Sankara, a summary of which is; "If one just worships Govinda, one can easily cross this great ocean of birth and death." This refers to the belief that worshipful adoration of Krishna can lead believers out of the cycle of reincarnation, or samsara, and into an eternal blissful life in Vaikuntha, 'beyond this material world' where Govinda resides. Govinda - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Sudarshana Chakra (Sanskrit: सुदर्शन चक्रम्) is a spinning disc like weapon with very sharp edge, which serves as an attribute of the Hindu God Vishnu. Lord Vishnu, also called Narayana, is portrayed with four hands, holding a Shankha (a conch shell), the Sudarshana, a Gada (mace) and a Padma (lotus).

Lord Vishnu is depicted holding the chakra from a central hole, with his forefinger. Seemingly, the disc simply spins around his finger. According to the Puranas, he could simply release it and it would do the required deed and return back to his finger. It is revered as a divine weapon. The Sudarshana Chakra is mentioned numerous times in Hindu texts, where Lord Vishnu decapitated various rakshasas, asuras and other wicked personalities — one of them being in Mahabharata, where Sri Krishna decapitates Shishupala for his misbehaviour. The Sudarshana Chakra has lots of abstract imagery as well. It is believed that Lord Vishnu is like the Sun, and the planets of the solar system revolve around him, in a disc-like form ..... creating the impression of the Sudarshan Chakra. Lord Vishnu is very commonly worshipped by people having faith in Astrology.

It is also considered to be a symbol of enlightenment, and hence, in various drawings it is depicted with a brilliant glow.

Lord Vishnu is believed to be the "Protector/Provider" of the universe. He is depicted lying across the entire expanse of the Universe (Vishwadharam) form. The Sudarshan Chakra in his hand depicts the control over the various stars and galaxies, as if they all orbit around him.Sudarshana Chakra - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1082

Vishnu and Gopala Krishna

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਸਾਲਾਹਨਿ ਦਰਸਨਿ ਰੂਪਿ ਅਪਾਰੁ ॥
hindhoo saalaahee saalaahan dharasan roop apaar ||
The Hindus praise the Praiseworthy Lord; the Blessed Vision of His Darshan, His form is incomparable.

ਤੀਰਥਿ ਨਾਵਹਿ ਅਰਚਾ ਪੂਜਾ ਅਗਰ ਵਾਸੁ ਬਹਕਾਰੁ ॥
theerathh naavehi arachaa poojaa agar vaas behakaar ||
They bathe at sacred shrines of pilgrimage, making offerings of flowers, and burning incense before idols.

ਜੋਗੀ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਧਿਆਵਨ੍ਹ੍ਹਿ ਜੇਤੇ ਅਲਖ ਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾਰੁ ॥
jogee sunn dhhiaavanih jaethae alakh naam karathaar ||
The Yogis meditate on the absolute Lord there; they call the Creator the Unseen Lord.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 465

And while adressing corruptions of superficial, hypocritical and insincere religious worship, Gurbani also states:

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaanhee ||
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
naaradh kehiaa s pooj karaanhee || andhhae gungae andhh andhhaar ||
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
paathhar lae poojehi mugadhh gavaar ||
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ouhi jaa aap ddubae thum kehaa tharanehaar ||2||
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 556

On balance, while considering many Gurbani tuuks which talk about devi, devtas, and idol worship, it is clear Guruji's message did NOT reject deva, devti as is falsely claimed, nor did Guruji completely reject idols, as there is acceptance of those who praise the praiseworthy Lord, while rejection of those who only worship the superficial stones themselves.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 2

Clearly Gurbani describes the Guru-God in terms of devi, devtas and also Vedas fully illustrating confidence the Indic Hindu structure of worship and salvation (means to attain the God).

~Bhul chak maaf

pk70 · #3 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 03:19 AM

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 923

If Gurubani rejects the "essentials of Hindu" traditions, caste system, etc., why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family and with the Tilak mark signifying Indic traditions and Hindu religion?
Please Bhain ji ,dont say I am following your posts, I have noticed you are throwing every thing in the name of Guru ji, it is big lie, and I really cannot appreciate lies. Above quote you took from Bani named Sad, written by Sundar ji where he just refers the family specially because there were others opposing Guru ship verbly to mislead Followers, so it is not more than that. Have you forgot Bhai Gurdas ji's declaration about Castes? That Shabad was recorded by Bhai Gurdass ji. How you can ignore Amrit being given from one pot regardless of the family Caste. As Baldev Singh is guessing, same way you are guessing. Guessers have no credibility. It may sound harsh but it is fact. You see nothing in Sikhism but Hinduism. Why you wrote here it is said by Guru, give me explanation? Or say sorry for leveling an an accusation against Guru ji who never ever claimed being Sodhi. You give quotes without knowing who wrote it and claim you have mastry who said what.. Do Hindu own tilik Is Tilak is measure to call Guru ji Hindu? Why all the time you ignore Guru Bachan" Na Ham Hindu Na Ham Muslmaan"? Every thing Guru ji specially addressed, you ignore then pick up one tuk from here another from there, then jump sand say" hey see what is written here" never even realized that quotes were already given against your accusations. Bhain ji it very sad, you can disrespect Guru ji and lie to promote your own views.

pk70 · #4 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 03:22 AM

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਨਾਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਵੇਦੰ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਮਾਈ ॥
guramukh naadhan guramukh vaedhan guramukh rehiaa samaaee ||
The Guru's Word is the Sound-current of the Naad; the Guru's Word is the Wisdom of the Vedas; the Guru's Word is all-pervading.

ਗੁਰੁ ਈਸਰੁ ਗੁਰੁ ਗੋਰਖੁ ਬਰਮਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਪਾਰਬਤੀ ਮਾਈ ॥
gur eesar gur gorakh baramaa gur paarabathee maaee ||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/22557-sikhism-hinduism-and-sanatan-dharam.html
The Guru is Shiva, the Guru is Vishnu and Brahma; the Guru is Paarvati and Lakhshmi.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557

ਜੇ ਹਉ ਜਾਣਾ ਆਖਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਥਨੁ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
jae ho jaanaa aakhaa naahee kehanaa kathhan n jaaee ||
Even knowing God, I cannot describe Him; He cannot be described in words.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 2

Well Bhain ji, What the above quote says? No need to follow Hindu strucure of religion because Guru is enough to guide. It is not praising Hinduism, it says to the followers to stick to Guru.

pk70 · #5 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 03:25 AM

ਨਿਰਾਹਾਰੀ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
niraahaaree niravair samaaeiaa ||
He is beyond need of any sustenance, free of hate and all-pervading.

ਧਾਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਚਤੁਰਭੁਜੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
dhhaar khael chathurabhuj kehaaeiaa ||
He has staged His play; He is called the four-armed Lord.

ਸਾਵਲ ਸੁੰਦਰ ਰੂਪ ਬਣਾਵਹਿ ਬੇਣੁ ਸੁਨਤ ਸਭ ਮੋਹੈਗਾ ॥੯॥
saaval sundhar roop banaavehi baen sunath sabh mohaigaa ||9||
He assumed the beautiful form of the blue-skinned Krishna; hearing His flute, all are fascinated.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1082

Alright, His Sargun Sroop is being discussed but in Sargun Sroop all what we see also comes, how these guys have become special Bhainji. Gurbani also says about them that HE created like them in millions, where do they stand then?
ਕੋਟਿ ਬਿਸਨ ਕੀਨੇ ਅਵਤਾਰ ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਧ੍ਰਮਸਾਲ॥ ਕੋਟਿ ਮਹੇਸ ਉਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਏ॥ਕੋਟਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੇ ਜਗੁ ਸਾਜਣ ਲਾਏ॥੧॥
Bhairo 5th Guru. He created millions of incarnations of Vishnu.He who has millions of solar systems as places to practise virtue.He created and destroyed millions of Shivas.He has employed myriads of Brahmas to create the universes.

pk70 · #6 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 03:38 AM

And if we are to question the Tilak on Guru Ramdas Ji as being for Hindu religious purposes, as He was being installed as King and Guru, but also what God did He worship?

Please read His Gurbani, it will become what he believe in, let me quote one of Guru Ram Das ji's Shabad about his faith, did he borrow from Hindus or just interpretted Guru Nanak's God as his.?
ਭੈਰਉ ਮਹਲਾ ੪ ॥ ਸਭਿ ਘਟ ਤੇਰੇ ਤੂ ਸਭਨਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥ ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕੋਈ ਨਾਹਿ ॥੧॥
Bhairo 4th Guru. O God, all the hearts are Thine and Thou abide amongst all. There is naught that is without Thee.
ਹਰਿ ਸੁਖਦਾਤਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਮਨ ਜਾਪੁ ॥ ਹਉ ਤੁਧੁ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਤੂ ਮੇਰਾ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਬਾਪੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ O my soul, mediate thou on the peace-giving God. I praise Thee. Thou are my God Lord, my Father. Pause.
ਜਹ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਾ ਤਹ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ ॥ ਸਭ ਤੇਰੈ ਵਸਿ ਦੂਜਾ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥੨॥ Wheresoever I see, there I see the Lord God alone. All are under Thine sway, There is not any other second,
ਜਿਸ ਕਉ ਤੁਮ ਹਰਿ ਰਾਖਿਆ ਭਾਵੈ ॥ ਤਿਸ ਕੈ ਨੇੜੈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਵੈ ॥੩॥ Whomsoever, Thou want to save, O Lord, near him no one can come (is not harmed by anyone).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557

ਤੂ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਸਭ ਤੈ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਜਪਿ ਹਾਜਰਾ ਹਜੂਰਿ ॥੪॥੪॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
O Lord, Thou are fully-filling the water, the dry land, under-world, sky and all places. O slave Nanak, contemplate thou thy ever-present Lord.

pk70 · #7 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 03:46 AM

ਹਿੰਦੂ ਮੂਲੇ ਭੂਲੇ ਅਖੁਟੀ ਜਾਂਹੀ ॥
hindhoo moolae bhoolae akhuttee jaanhee ||
The Hindus have forgotten the Primal Lord; they are going the wrong way.

ਨਾਰਦਿ ਕਹਿਆ ਸਿ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਾਂਹੀ ॥ਅੰਧੇ ਗੁੰਗੇ ਅੰਧ ਅੰਧਾਰੁ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
naaradh kehiaa s pooj karaanhee || andhhae gungae andhh andhhaar ||
As Naarad instructed them, they are worshipping idols. They are blind and mute, the blindest of the blind.

ਪਾਥਰੁ ਲੇ ਪੂਜਹਿ ਮੁਗਧ ਗਵਾਰ ॥
paathhar lae poojehi mugadhh gavaar ||
The ignorant fools pick up stones and worship them.

ਓਹਿ ਜਾ ਆਪਿ ਡੁਬੇ ਤੁਮ ਕਹਾ ਤਰਣਹਾਰੁ ॥੨॥
ouhi jaa aap ddubae thum kehaa tharanehaar ||2||
But when those stones themselves sink, who will carry you across? ||2||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 556

Bhain ji, above Guru Vaak also states that Sikhs do not need Hinduism at all. As it declares what they do is not right, who is already lost what others can learn from those lost ones; that is the other request we cry loud, please leave us alone. If some Hindus, go deep into the wisdom expressed in their scriptures, good for them. There are some but most of them still in the same positions as Guru Vaak says. A lot of Sikhs are also in that kind of quogmire, so it comes down to who practice religions correctly; that is another reason Sikhism says what ever you are , Hindu or Muslim, be sincere towards HIM, does this Hinduism say so?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557

Narayanjot Kaur · #8 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 18:00 PM

Posts in this thread were moved from Sikhism - Christianity - big differences!! Keep it tight. Keep it cool.

Astroboy · #9 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 21:29 PM

'Bluestar was most traumatic, most painful'

Let the Sikhs protect themselves and their families from the tyranny of political agenda.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
How sure are we that the Indian govt doesn't want to wipe out and marginalise the minorities ?
Isn't it already hapenning ?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
What challenge can sikhs with swords make against outnumbered by Indian Military with sophisticated weapons ?
When there is no way out, fight till the end. Why was Bhindrawala wanted by police ?
Why was he termed a terrorist ?
What motivated him to do what he did ?

3 Races stand out in India - Hindu, Muslims and Sikhs.
Hindus hold the power because they are the majority.
How many Sikhs are leaving the country for better opportunity and fairness overseas, compared to Hindus and Muslims ?

Was Indra Gandhi mind-conditioned by her father's view of Sikhs ?
http://srec.gurmat.info/srecarticles...hsinindia.html

Narayanjot Kaur · #10 (**permalink**) 05-Aug-2008, 21:42 PM

NamJap ji,

May I stand behind your opinion expressed here. Each day I remind myself in ardaas that Sikhs are the children of martyrs. If born into Sikhism, and most likely of Punjabi descent, then we are children of martyrs genetically and culturally. If converted to Sikhism, then we are the spiritual children of these same people. Thank you for bringing this to mind once again today for me.

Reminding me once again where I come from.