Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam

Originally Posted by pk70

ਰਾਮਦਾਸ ਸੋਢੀ ਤਿਲਕੁ ਦੀਆ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦੁ ਸਚੁ ਨੀਸਾਣੁ ਜੀਉ ॥੫॥
raamadhaas sodtee thilak dheeaa gur sabadh sach neesaan jeeo ||5||
The Guru then blessed the Sodhi Ram Das with the ceremonial tilak mark, the insignia of the True Word of the Shabad. ||5||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 923

If Gurubani rejects the "essentials of Hindu" traditions, caste system, etc., why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family and with the Tilak mark signifying Indic traditions and Hindu religion?
Please Bhain ji ,dont say I am following your posts, I have noticed you are throwing every thing in the name of Guru ji, it is big lie, and I really cannot appreciate lies. Above quote you took from Bani named Sad, written by Sundar ji where he just refers the family specially because there were others opposing Guru ship verbly to mislead Followers, so it is not more than that. Have you forgot Bhai Gurdas ji's declaration about Castes? That Shabad was recorded by Bhai Gurdass ji. How you can ignore Amrit being given from one pot regardless of the family Caste. As Baldev Singh is guessing, same way you are guessing. Guessers have no credibility. It may sound harsh but it is fact. You see nothing in Sikhism but Hinduism. Why you wrote here it is said by Guru, give me explanation? Or say sorry for leveling an an accusation against Guru ji who never ever claimed being Sodhi. You give quotes without knowing who wrote it and claim you have mastry who said what.. Do Hindu own tilik Is Tilak is measure to call Guru ji Hindu? Why all the time you ignore Guru BachanNa Ham Hindu Na Ham Muslmaan"? Every thing Guru ji specially addressed, you ignore then pick up one tuk from here another from there, then jump sand say" hey see what is written here" never even realized that quotes were already given against your accusations. Bhain ji it very sad, you can disrespect Guru ji and lie to promote your own views.

Originally Posted by pk70

All jio,
kindly note down the distortion of Gurbani in context of Caste System which was bluntly rejected by Guru Sahiban, I am giving examples of distorted translation and the actual Guru Message( Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Kindly judge yourself how any one can undermine what Guru preached through out their lives.

Here is distorted translation
ਵਰਨਾਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
varanaa varan n bhaavanee jae kisai vaddaa karaee ||
One class of people does not like the other, when one has been made great.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 53
THE REAL MESSAGE
Varaanaa varan= upper and low classes, n bhaavaanee= don’t like, je= if, kissai= some one, vaddaa kreae= If He makes high/great
Means, no one can say if He likes low or high caste (Because, answer is in following Vaak which is omitted)
ਵਡੇ ਹਥਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਜੈ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੈ ਦੇਇ
Vadde= Lord, Hathh= in hands, Vaddeeaeea= greatness/reward of honor, jai bhavai= as it pleases HIM, tai= that way, dae= gives
All is in Lords to be given honor/greatness is in Lords’ hand, as it please He gives.

ALL SANGAT JEE PLEASE TELL ME HOW DOES THIS TUK SUPPORT CASTE SYSTEM?


Now lets see if the following Tuk supports caste system


ਪਤਿਤਜਾਤਿਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||
Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 733
Lets analyze actually what Guru ji is saying, here is the complete Guru Vaak Mehl-4)

ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਾਰੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਇਕ ਗਾਇ ॥ ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
Chamaar= tanner, ustit= praise, Har kirt= Lord’s praise, namikh= every moment, gae= sing, Patit= low class, uttam bhaeea= became sublime, chaar varan= ( people of) all four castes , pagg= feet, pae aae= came and fell at
Ravidas, the tanner praised Lord every moment.( By doing so), even though he belonged to low class, he became sublime and all people of four castes fell at his feet.
How this Tuk quoted in support of Caste System, does support Caste system? Contrary to that wrong notion it says, it is not caste which is important but" Nam simran"

( Sources Dr Veer Singh ji, Bhai Kahan Singfh Ji, Freedkot wala Teeka of course as I see too)

Originally Posted by dalbirk

Please see the following videos of you tube on RSS by Sikh organisations :
1 Tabhi Ros Jageo : Video on RSS by Sikhs
YouTube - Tabhe Ros Jageo - Sikh Documentary on RSS
2 . Hinduisation of Sikh history by RSS
YouTube - Hinduization of Sikh Faith By RSS - Sikh History
The biggest enemy of Sikhs in India is RSS ( BJP ) much bigger than Congress , BSP ( Mayawati ) or Leftists .

Originally Posted by Harjas Kaur Khalsa

First of all, a thread which was comparing Sikhism to Hinduism was closed recently. This current thread: "Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam" Was NOT started by me as it is artificially made to appear which even I concede is antagonistic in its presentation. And hereby I refuse to participate in this thread for this reason:

1. a thread in which Sikh80 ji was asking questions about similarities in spiritual teachings was closed with disclaimer that it was disrespecting Sikh identity, also as a result of that thread a TOS was adopted by this website claiming that the mainstream view of Sikh idependant identity had not been respected.

So to artificially start a new thread, with this heading which again pits Sikh versus Hindu is just bound to be closed when I begin to answer objections and as my threads are already being deleted per the TOS agreement I see no purpose in continuing any response.


I wrote these initial threads in response to a specific claim from a posted article, which is no longer posted and hence, no longer in context. As to the attack against the sanatan views read in every single post thus far, on this artificial topic starter, which I did not start, but appears in my name propagandistically, alleging "lies" and talk about communal violence of Operation Bluestar, etc, have nothing to do with the original counter to the article which said, "Gurbani says Karma, devas, avtaaras, etc don't exist," and that Sikhism has no spiritual teachings which parallel what is found in Hindu teachings.

I did NOT start another topic thread begging to be closed. I have already written about caste system on another thread, and rewriting points on every closed thread is ridiculous. I never said Gurbani praised the caste system as we know it with corruptions and injustices. I said there were tuuks of Gurbani which show Guru has stated the caste/varna system was instituted by God. And I also said Gurbani says the caste system as a point of injustice is incorrect and Guru promotes "equality in the spiritual teachings."

So to attribute to me that I said Guruji believes in caste system as is modernly corrupted and unjust is the lie. The original caste/varna system per the Vedas was that anyone could be a brahmin, anyone could be a shudra, based on his behavior and attitude to God. the Manu Smrities institutionalized the hereditary discrimination. Both Vaishnav Hindu and Gurbani reject this, so don't impute that to my words. There remains the matter of why Sikhs have always been referred to by their caste surnames, even during times of Sikh misls, and why Gurbani refers to Guru using caste surname, and the fact that despite Sikhism being idealistically called a religion against caste system, it is one of the most caste conscious religions is a social-historical FACT which needs to be evaluated before someone like Dr. Baldev Singh, who wrote the initial article, uses caste system as some proof dividing Hindus from Sikhs. Again, I reiterate, Gurbani just like Vaishnav reform addresses caste varna system as whoever is devoted to God is the true brahmin, he who is corrupt is the shudra. So there is a spiritual teaching shared by both Hindus and Siks, how can you divide them by it? Why attribute to Hindus ONLY the worst excesses of caste system, when entire, influential segments of the Sikh community discriminate on basis of caste as well. And finally, why does Gurbani retain some references to original caste/varna system as instituted by the God and Sikh history from the beginning retaining tribal identities within Sikhs such as Jatt, Khatri, Ramgharia, Saini, etc?


From an evidentiary standpoint, it begs the legitimacy of Sikhism in idealism as realistically rejecting caste at all. Also the video diatribe against RSS is not called for at all, since the RSS is not the only sanatan organization, nor do my own views support the mischief of the RSS. Hence it isn't relevant to my rebuttal of Dr. Baldev Singh's article. But I do invite all of you to look at how you continually demonize the sanatan viewpoint against all reason as being "lies" "RSS Propaganda to destroy Sikh identity" and don't even look within Sikh sangat itself why THEY THEMSELVES continue to perpetuate the worst of caste system, or even in Harmandir Sahib refuse seva to ladies on basis of sex. First clean your own house before throwing stones at sanatan Sikhi.


It doesn't support the corrupted caste system you are trying to imply. The fact that caste system is mentioned in Gurbani as a social reality, indicates why historically within Sikhism, the caste system remianed a social reality.


Perhaps this was the intention of the moderators, to close a thread exploring relationship oif Sikhism to Hinduism, only to create a fake thread, taking posts out of context and in response to a specific article and make like I had posted some kind of challenge simply to inflame yourselves. This whole discussion is artificially contrived, intended to slant negatively, and pretending I had created it to challenge the prevailing views, when I was challenging the denial by Dr. Baldev Singh that karma, transmigration, avataars and devas are mentioned in Gurbani. And THAT was what my posts were about, to prove he was wrong, they are in fact mentioned. It was NOT an article trying to show that caste discrimination and worst corruptions are legitimate as the responding posts are implying. So I remove myself from this discussion and ask in fairness that you delete it as it creates a false impression that I had started an inflammatory thread much like the ones recently closed. Or perhaps the moderators are playing some game to get me banned from the site for disregarding their instructions, even though I did NOT start this thread, but was responding to a specific thread article which was not even carried over in context. WHY AREN'T MODERATORS BEING FAIR AND REASONABLE? WHY CREATE FALSE IMPRESSIONS LIKE THIS?

How dare you create a topic starter out of context in my name similar in topic to the threads you have just closed and deleted trying to justify banning me. You are worse than communists in propaganda.



Who is lying to promote what? Caste reform really started with Vaishnav Hindu saints. Sikhism continued practice of identifying tribes by caste and retaining caste surnames, not only before Maharaja Ranjit Singh but in Sikh misl times, and even Guru's were known by their caste surnames. When a scholar such as Dr. Baldev Singh claims falsely that Sikhism as a religion rejects caste, and is distinct from Hinduism because of it, credibility for its prevalence within Sikhism must be explored. Again I have already acknowledge on many threads that caste system is rejected as a basis of discrimination, but perhaps continued for social purposes. At least, because of the reality of caste system, and Gurbani seems to acknowledged that caste system DOES exist as an Indic social structure. Nowhere does Gurbani say caste system is rejected, only that spiritually all castes are made into brothers, very similar to Vaishnav caste reform. Sikh Misls fought between themselves along caste lines. Even conflict between Banda Singh Bahadur Ji's men was conflict between tribes alohng caste lines. So the entire Sikh history is permeated with caste, how can it be ignored in any reasonable study JUST because it's unpopular to acknowledge? Hence Dr. Singh's thesis that this is some point of departure between Sikhism and Hinduism is itself artificial and untrue.

Instead of everyone becoming emotional and denying the obvious, and attacking me personally, why aren't we validly examining the real Sikh history, and then promoting the authentic caste reform of both Vaishnavism and original intent of Sikhism, which I hardly doubt is the racist Jatt paat and Ramgharia Gurdwara mentality of today. Why is something like caste system always being used to DEMONIZE all Hindus and falsely praise all Sikhs who are often no different than those Hindus who DO discriminate on basis of caste unfairly? Let's be real was all I was saying.


And again on point of RSS videos, LOL, just follow my profile to find old posts where I too am bashing RSS Hindutva repeatedly over the Gujarat riots. Why lay fake blame like some juvenile persons to accuse me as being RSS, or try to equate my discussion of sanatan history within Sikhism and Gurbani as being associated with RSS propaganda? You don't need Arya Samaji's or RSS to show you Sikh history is very closely aligned with Hinduism for hundreds of years. Stop lying to yourselves.


Yet you do this to me, remove my comments relating to the other thread, and put them here, with your own title, but in my name to create some fake propaganda thread, with me a pretended poster. Make your own title threads with your own commentary. And then see if I want to participate in that discussion. Because I never wrote those threads in response to a topic starter or this title thread but in response to a VERY SPECIFIC article which isn't even here. Talk about spam. And I add, you claim my responses were unrelated to that other thread, yet were couched in DIRECT response to a QUOTE made in the first few sentences of the posted article, yet removed and placed here in some inflammatory context. WOW. Hypocrisy to the max. Thanks for the FAIR forum. And everyone attacking me as some kind of RSS agent, and all anyone has to do is go visit Jattworld to see what I'm talking about. Sikhism and Hinduism DON'T differ on basis of caste system, was my rebuttal to Dr. Singh's article... because SOME Hindus don't believe in it, and SOME SIkhs do! And SIKH HISTORY is FULL of it! So stop bashing me about it. Whether or not it agrees with your personal sentiments about Ideal Sikhism, it is still there in plain sight. As to analysis of WHY, then we are back to carefully looking at Gurbani and history. Just because Khalsa was one brotherhood DID NOT MEAN CASTE WAS IGNORED. IT REMAINED TRIBAL AFFILIATION AND SOCIAL TIE WITHIN SIKHISM FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. DON"T BLAME ME FOR IT.

Originally Posted by Ali hasan

This is horrible.What is the purpose of these forums and threads if free speech cannot be guaranteed!