Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam

NamJap ji,

May I stand behind your opinion expressed here. Each day I remind myself in ardaas that Sikhs are the children of martyrs. If born into Sikhism, and most likely of Punjabi descent, then we are children of martyrs genetically and culturally. If converted to Sikhism, then we are the spiritual children of these same people. Thank you for bringing this to mind once again today for me. Reminding me once again where I come from.
*

 
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All jio,
kindly note down the distortion of Gurbani in context of Caste System which was bluntly rejected by Guru Sahiban, I am giving examples of distorted translation and the actual Guru Message( Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji). Kindly judge yourself how any one can undermine what Guru preached through out their lives.

Here is distorted translation
ਵਰਨਾਵਰਨ ਨ ਭਾਵਨੀ ਜੇ ਕਿਸੈ ਵਡਾ ਕਰੇਇ ॥
varanaa varan n bhaavanee jae kisai vaddaa karaee ||
One class of people does not like the other, when one has been made great.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 53
THE REAL MESSAGE
Varaanaa varan= upper and low classes, n bhaavaanee= don’t like, je= if, kissai= some one, vaddaa kreae= If He makes high/great
Means, no one can say if He likes low or high caste (Because, answer is in following Vaak which is omitted)
ਵਡੇ ਹਥਿ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਜੈ ਭਾਵੈ ਤੈ ਦੇਇ
Vadde= Lord, Hathh= in hands, Vaddeeaeea= greatness/reward of honor, jai bhavai= as it pleases HIM, tai= that way, dae= gives
All is in Lords to be given honor/greatness is in Lords’ hand, as it please He gives.

ALL SANGAT JEE PLEASE TELL ME HOW DOES THIS TUK SUPPORT CASTE SYSTEM?


Now lets see if the following Tuk supports caste system


ਪਤਿਤਜਾਤਿਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
pathith jaath outham bhaeiaa chaar varan peae pag aae ||2||
Although he was of low social status, he was exalted and elevated, and people of all four castes came and bowed at his feet. ||2||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 733
Lets analyze actually what Guru ji is saying, here is the complete Guru Vaak Mehl-4)

ਰਵਿਦਾਸੁ ਚਮਾਰੁ ਉਸਤਤਿ ਕਰੇ ਹਰਿ ਕੀਰਤਿ ਨਿਮਖ ਇਕ ਗਾਇ ॥ ਪਤਿਤ ਜਾਤਿ ਉਤਮੁ ਭਇਆ ਚਾਰਿ ਵਰਨ ਪਏ ਪਗਿ ਆਇ ॥੨॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hinduism/22557-sikhism-hinduism-and-sanatan-dharam.html
Chamaar= tanner, ustit= praise, Har kirt= Lord’s praise, namikh= every moment, gae= sing, Patit= low class, uttam bhaeea= became sublime, chaar varan= ( people of) all four castes , pagg= feet, pae aae= came and fell at
Ravidas, the tanner praised Lord every moment.( By doing so), even though he belonged to low class, he became sublime and all people of four castes fell at his feet.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
How this Tuk quoted in support of Caste System, does support Caste system? Contrary to that wrong notion it says, it is not caste which is important but" Nam simran"

( Sources Dr Veer Singh ji, Bhai Kahan Singfh Ji, Freedkot wala Teeka of course as I see too)

Dear Harjas Bhainji ,
This is for ur information . I recently came across these old articles carrying old news . These r as follows :
1. A circular carrying signatures of SSP Lucknow , B B Bakshi bearing no S.T / S.S.P 32/2001/4140 issued in May , 2001 orders his subordinates that they should preapre aregister of Sikhs & Muslims families living in their areas & keep an eye on their activities . In the circular it has been strictly instructed that Muslims & Sikhs whether living in poor slums or rich colonies , they should be watched very strictly .
In another instruction , district magistrates have been asked to prepare a list of properties either bought or leased plots , lands & houses . In instruction no 13 it has been mentiones that Sikhs visiting Nanak Mata Gurudwara & Pakistan Gurudwaras should be kept under watch , their lists prepared & informations reagrding them be given to police chiefs .
The ex-servicemen also have been made suspicious by BJP Govt . About them instruction has been given that lists of people retired after service in Army , Navy & Air Force soldiers should be prepared .
The ruling Govt in the state of UP at that time was BJP ( RSS ) under Rajnath Singh , I suppose the present National Party President of BJP .
2 . The second news is also from the BJP ( RSS ) ruled state of Madhya Pradesh in ( Dainik Jagran 06/03/2002 , Guna Edition ) . Actually events happened like this . Some Dalits ( Hindu ) of some villages in Guna district of MP converted to Sikhism by partaking Amrit . Seeing them many more Dalits got encouraged to convert to Sikhism . These events turned important when some news papers belonging to Elite Hindus published the news in such dramatic manner that as if they had unravelled some Anti- National deed being done secretly : " .... this thing should be kept in mind that in some villages of Arone & Ashok Nagar tehsils religious conversions were taking place . The Dalit people living here were converting to Sikh religion . So for this not only they had grown their head & facial hair , but they had taken Amrit according to the Sikh Religion & had adopted the customs of this religion . Uptill now this conversion was taking place secretly but suddenly this matter was reported in news paper headlines . When the matter was made public immediately the authorities swinged into action .... " ( Dainik Jagran , Dt 06/03/2002 , Guna Edition )
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
What the administrating authorities did by swinging in action has been narrated by local Sikhs . According to them the police of Aaron Tehsil , Sarpanches of Villages , Tehsildars , Patwari & other adminstrating staff went to the village of Dalits convering to Sikhs . These newly converted Sikhs were gathered at one place , firstly their pictures were clicked then they were threatened to cut their hair & leave Sikhism or face dire consequences . These newly converted Sikhs refused to comply with their orders , then in front of everybody beat up Puran Singh son of Shiv Lal mercilessly . Even then when he did not agree to cut his hair , the local police took him to the police station in a jeep . There he was again mercilessly beaten , his kakaars taken & he was relaesed aften threatening him of dire consequences if he did not cut his hair & leave Sikhism . After this other converted Sikhs were also threatened in same way . More so , they were threated to get Govt aid stopped & their properties confiscated . Three Sikhs gave up & returned to Hinduism , rest of them pleaded for help to local Singh Sabha . That Singh Sabha has tried to get this issue addressed by writing to all Panthic institutions as well as talking to local media , but their efforts don't seem to be bearing fruit .....
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
( With thanks from Sikh Phulwari , June , 2002 Edition )

Here's another Gurbani Tuk that shows you, even before Sikhism came into existence that God does not support the caste system. God is our True Guru, not Vedas nor Puranas :-

ਹਸਤ ਖੇਲਤ ਤੇਰੇ ਦੇਹੁਰੇ ਆਇਆ ॥
हसत खेलत तेरे देहुरे आइआ ॥
Hasaṯ kẖėlaṯ ṯėrė ḏėhurė ā*i*ā.
Laughing and playing, I came to Your Temple, O Lord.
ਭਗਤਿ ਕਰਤ ਨਾਮਾ ਪਕਰਿ ਉਠਾਇਆ ॥੧॥
भगति करत नामा पकरि उठाइआ ॥१॥
Bẖagaṯ karaṯ nāmā pakar uṯẖā*i*ā. ||1||
While Naam Dayv was worshipping, he was grabbed and driven out. ||1||
ਹੀਨੜੀ ਜਾਤਿ ਮੇਰੀ ਜਾਦਿਮ ਰਾਇਆ ॥
हीनड़ी जाति मेरी जादिम राइआ ॥
Hīnṛī jāṯ mėrī jāḏim rā*i*ā.
I am of a low social class, O Lord;
ਛੀਪੇ ਕੇ ਜਨਮਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕਉ ਆਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
छीपे के जनमि काहे कउ आइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Cẖẖīpė kė janam kāhė ka*o ā*i*ā. ||1|| rahā*o.
why was I born into a family of fabric dyers? ||1||Pause||
ਲੈ ਕਮਲੀ ਚਲਿਓ ਪਲਟਾਇ ॥
लै कमली चलिओ पलटाइ ॥
Lai kamlī cẖali*o paltā*ė.
I picked up my blanket and went back,
ਦੇਹੁਰੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਬੈਠਾ ਜਾਇ ॥੨॥
देहुरै पाछै बैठा जाइ ॥२॥
Ḏėhurai pācẖẖai baiṯẖā jā*ė. ||2||
to sit behind the temple. ||2||
ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਨਾਮਾ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਉਚਰੈ ॥
जिउ जिउ नामा हरि गुण उचरै ॥
Ji*o ji*o nāmā har guṇ ucẖrai.
As Naam Dayv uttered the Glorious Praises of the Lord,
ਭਗਤ ਜਨਾਂ ਕਉ ਦੇਹੁਰਾ ਫਿਰੈ ॥੩॥੬॥
भगत जनां कउ देहुरा फिरै ॥३॥६॥
Bẖagaṯ janāʼn ka*o ḏėhurā firai. ||3||6||
the temple turned around to face the Lord's humble devotee. ||3||6||

Please see the following videos of you tube on RSS by Sikh organisations :
1 Tabhi Ros Jageo : Video on RSS by Sikhs
2 . Hinduisation of Sikh history by RSS
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
The biggest enemy of Sikhs in India is RSS ( BJP ) much bigger than Congress , BSP ( Mayawati ) or Leftists .

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

First of all, a thread which was comparing Sikhism to Hinduism was closed recently. This current thread: "Sikhism, Hinduism and Sanatan Dharam" Was NOT started by me as it is artificially made to appear which even I concede is antagonistic in its presentation. And hereby I refuse to participate in this thread for this reason:

1. a thread in which Sikh80 ji was asking questions about similarities in spiritual teachings was closed with disclaimer that it was disrespecting Sikh identity, also as a result of that thread a TOS was adopted by this website claiming that the mainstream view of Sikh idependant identity had not been respected.

So to artificially start a new thread, with this heading which again pits Sikh versus Hindu is just bound to be closed when I begin to answer objections and as my threads are already being deleted per the TOS agreement I see no purpose in continuing any response.


I wrote these initial threads in response to a specific claim from a posted article, which is no longer posted and hence, no longer in context. As to the attack against the sanatan views read in every single post thus far, on this artificial topic starter, which I did not start, but appears in my name propagandistically, alleging "lies" and talk about communal violence of Operation Bluestar, etc, have nothing to do with the original counter to the article which said, "Gurbani says Karma, devas, avtaaras, etc don't exist," and that Sikhism has no spiritual teachings which parallel what is found in Hindu teachings.

I did NOT start another topic thread begging to be closed. I have already written about caste system on another thread, and rewriting points on every closed thread is ridiculous. I never said Gurbani praised the caste system as we know it with corruptions and injustices. I said there were tuuks of Gurbani which show Guru has stated the caste/varna system was instituted by God. And I also said Gurbani says the caste system as a point of injustice is incorrect and Guru promotes "equality in the spiritual teachings."

So to attribute to me that I said Guruji believes in caste system as is modernly corrupted and unjust is the lie. The original caste/varna system per the Vedas was that anyone could be a brahmin, anyone could be a shudra, based on his behavior and attitude to God. the Manu Smrities institutionalized the hereditary discrimination. Both Vaishnav Hindu and Gurbani reject this, so don't impute that to my words. There remains the matter of why Sikhs have always been referred to by their caste surnames, even during times of Sikh misls, and why Gurbani refers to Guru using caste surname, and the fact that despite Sikhism being idealistically called a religion against caste system, it is one of the most caste conscious religions is a social-historical FACT which needs to be evaluated before someone like Dr. Baldev Singh, who wrote the initial article, uses caste system as some proof dividing Hindus from Sikhs. Again, I reiterate, Gurbani just like Vaishnav reform addresses caste varna system as whoever is devoted to God is the true brahmin, he who is corrupt is the shudra. So there is a spiritual teaching shared by both Hindus and Siks, how can you divide them by it? Why attribute to Hindus ONLY the worst excesses of caste system, when entire, influential segments of the Sikh community discriminate on basis of caste as well. And finally, why does Gurbani retain some references to original caste/varna system as instituted by the God and Sikh history from the beginning retaining tribal identities within Sikhs such as Jatt, Khatri, Ramgharia, Saini, etc?


From an evidentiary standpoint, it begs the legitimacy of Sikhism in idealism as realistically rejecting caste at all. Also the video diatribe against RSS is not called for at all, since the RSS is not the only sanatan organization, nor do my own views support the mischief of the RSS. Hence it isn't relevant to my rebuttal of Dr. Baldev Singh's article. But I do invite all of you to look at how you continually demonize the sanatan viewpoint against all reason as being "lies" "RSS Propaganda to destroy Sikh identity" and don't even look within Sikh sangat itself why THEY THEMSELVES continue to perpetuate the worst of caste system, or even in Harmandir Sahib refuse seva to ladies on basis of sex. First clean your own house before throwing stones at sanatan Sikhi.

It doesn't support the corrupted caste system you are trying to imply. The fact that caste system is mentioned in Gurbani as a social reality, indicates why historically within Sikhism, the caste system remianed a social reality.


Perhaps this was the intention of the moderators, to close a thread exploring relationship oif Sikhism to Hinduism, only to create a fake thread, taking posts out of context and in response to a specific article and make like I had posted some kind of challenge simply to inflame yourselves. This whole discussion is artificially contrived, intended to slant negatively, and pretending I had created it to challenge the prevailing views, when I was challenging the denial by Dr. Baldev Singh that karma, transmigration, avataars and devas are mentioned in Gurbani. And THAT was what my posts were about, to prove he was wrong, they are in fact mentioned. It was NOT an article trying to show that caste discrimination and worst corruptions are legitimate as the responding posts are implying. So I remove myself from this discussion and ask in fairness that you delete it as it creates a false impression that I had started an inflammatory thread much like the ones recently closed. Or perhaps the moderators are playing some game to get me banned from the site for disregarding their instructions, even though I did NOT start this thread, but was responding to a specific thread article which was not even carried over in context. WHY AREN'T MODERATORS BEING FAIR AND REASONABLE? WHY CREATE FALSE IMPRESSIONS LIKE THIS?

How dare you create a topic starter out of context in my name similar in topic to the threads you have just closed and deleted trying to justify banning me. You are worse than communists in propaganda.


Who is lying to promote what? Caste reform really started with Vaishnav Hindu saints. Sikhism continued practice of identifying tribes by caste and retaining caste surnames, not only before Maharaja Ranjit Singh but in Sikh misl times, and even Guru's were known by their caste surnames. When a scholar such as Dr. Baldev Singh claims falsely that Sikhism as a religion rejects caste, and is distinct from Hinduism because of it, credibility for its prevalence within Sikhism must be explored. Again I have already acknowledge on many threads that caste system is rejected as a basis of discrimination, but perhaps continued for social purposes. At least, because of the reality of caste system, and Gurbani seems to acknowledged that caste system DOES exist as an Indic social structure. Nowhere does Gurbani say caste system is rejected, only that spiritually all castes are made into brothers, very similar to Vaishnav caste reform. Sikh Misls fought between themselves along caste lines. Even conflict between Banda Singh Bahadur Ji's men was conflict between tribes alohng caste lines. So the entire Sikh history is permeated with caste, how can it be ignored in any reasonable study JUST because it's unpopular to acknowledge? Hence Dr. Singh's thesis that this is some point of departure between Sikhism and Hinduism is itself artificial and untrue.

Instead of everyone becoming emotional and denying the obvious, and attacking me personally, why aren't we validly examining the real Sikh history, and then promoting the authentic caste reform of both Vaishnavism and original intent of Sikhism, which I hardly doubt is the racist Jatt paat and Ramgharia Gurdwara mentality of today. Why is something like caste system always being used to DEMONIZE all Hindus and falsely praise all Sikhs who are often no different than those Hindus who DO discriminate on basis of caste unfairly? Let's be real was all I was saying.


And again on point of RSS videos, LOL, just follow my profile to find old posts where I too am bashing RSS Hindutva repeatedly over the Gujarat riots. Why lay fake blame like some juvenile persons to accuse me as being RSS, or try to equate my discussion of sanatan history within Sikhism and Gurbani as being associated with RSS propaganda? You don't need Arya Samaji's or RSS to show you Sikh history is very closely aligned with Hinduism for hundreds of years. Stop lying to yourselves.

Yet you do this to me, remove my comments relating to the other thread, and put them here, with your own title, but in my name to create some fake propaganda thread, with me a pretended poster. Make your own title threads with your own commentary. And then see if I want to participate in that discussion. Because I never wrote those threads in response to a topic starter or this title thread but in response to a VERY SPECIFIC article which isn't even here. Talk about spam. And I add, you claim my responses were unrelated to that other thread, yet were couched in DIRECT response to a QUOTE made in the first few sentences of the posted article, yet removed and placed here in some inflammatory context. WOW. Hypocrisy to the max. Thanks for the FAIR forum. And everyone attacking me as some kind of RSS agent, and all anyone has to do is go visit Jattworld to see what I'm talking about. Sikhism and Hinduism DON'T differ on basis of caste system, was my rebuttal to Dr. Singh's article... because SOME Hindus don't believe in it, and SOME SIkhs do! And SIKH HISTORY is FULL of it! So stop bashing me about it. Whether or not it agrees with your personal sentiments about Ideal Sikhism, it is still there in plain sight. As to analysis of WHY, then we are back to carefully looking at Gurbani and history. Just because Khalsa was one brotherhood DID NOT MEAN CASTE WAS IGNORED. IT REMAINED TRIBAL AFFILIATION AND SOCIAL TIE WITHIN SIKHISM FOR HUNDREDS OF YEARS. DON"T BLAME ME FOR IT.

It doesn't support the corrupted caste system you are trying to imply. The fact that caste system is mentioned in Gurbani as a social reality, indicates why historically within Sikhism, the caste system remianed a social reality.

I have to regretfuly say Bhain ji,lies have no bearing, a lot of Sikhs who follow Gurbani do not believe in this evil system given by evil mentality of some Hindu guy. Bhai Gurdas Ji supports what I say and Tenth Master practically showed the world that Guru Nanak made one Varana from four as Bhai Gurdas ji says. Your drums are empty, no bearing what so ever behind any of your claims. You just want to post on this site for your funny analysis.

Who is lying to promote what?
You. What? Here you go, “lies” in your own words” why is Guruji Himself designated as belonging to a particular caste family ..”
How you lied?
It is not the Guru’s words, it was written by Sundar ji in bani named ‘Sadd”
Why do you lie through teeth by saying” Guru himself designated as belonging to particular caste family”
ਖਤ੍ਰੀ ਬ੍ਰਾਹਮਣ ਸੂਦ ਵੈਸ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਚਹੁ ਵਰਨਾ ਕਉ ਸਾਝਾ ॥
khathree braahaman soodh vais oupadhaes chahu varanaa ko saajhaa ||
The four castes - the Kh'shaatriyas, Brahmins, Soodras and Vaishyas - are equal in respect to the teachings.
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 747
What does it mean? How it supports your cooked up views, it simply says it is for all known castes without any discrimination” Jaat da garb n kreo koeee..M-3, clearly says do not fall into false pride of caste as it is not accepted in His court.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22557
ਚਾਰਿ ਬਰਨ ਚਾਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮ ਹੈ ਕੋਈ ਮਿਲੈ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੁਰ ਨਾਨਕ ਸੋ ਆਪਿ ਤਰੈ ਕੁਲ ਸਗਲ ਤਰਾਧੋ ॥੨॥੫॥੧੧॥
chaar baran chaar aasram hai koee milai guroo gur naanak so aap tharai kul sagal tharaadhho ||2||5||11||
There are four castes, four social classes, and four stages of life. Whoever meets the Guru, Guru Nanak, is himself carried across, and he carries all his ancestors and generations across as well. ||2||5||11||
~Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p. 1297
This says only about what was already established, Guru Nanak take them across without any discrimination. If there were that truth you are desperately trying to make up, Tenth Master would have never allowed all to drink AMRIT from the same Pot. Do you dream to be more knowledgeable about Gurbani than Bhai Gurdas ji? He clearly states what Ihave been trying to say with his quotes. When that comes, you start bringing those so called Sikhs who believe in this evil thing