Vegetarian Consciousness and the Meditative Mind

BhagatSingh · #46 (**permalink**) 02-May-2012, 20:26 PM

Gyani ji,

Quote:

Would you agree that higher conscious beings like humans and other animals suffer more than lower conscious (if any) beings like plants?
If an animal was put through the wooden rollers and crushed, do you reckon it would suffer more than a plant?
If rocks (lowest form of consciousness if any) were placed in the wooden rollers, do you think the would suffer less than a plant?

PunjabiEspada · #47 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 08:07 AM

There is life in sugar cane, true.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/38391-vegetarian-consciousness-and-the-meditative-mind.html

But the nervous systems of animals such as cows and pigs are obviously a lot more vast and they are obviously feel a great deal of pain when undergoing these conditions; much more than plants who lack a nervous system.

Animals also possess emotions and the level of pain and suffering inflicted during the modern day era is ridiculously massive due to human greed

which is why I just don't see the need for all this mass pain and suffering dealt to these animals when there is another clearly available, healthy, and cheap option of being vegetarian
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38391

It's a simple matter of morals. Contribute to this massive slaughter of 140 billion animals suffering on a huge scale a year under horrific conditions for "taste" or just choose to not eat meat

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #48 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 10:29 AM

For whats it worth..I DONT condone whats shown in these and many similar videos put up by Animal Rights Activists and groups...in Fact i THROW UP within the first 30 seconds or so....and even worse are videos of testing on animals, animals being killed for fur gall bladders etc etc.. So no argument there.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38391

My point is that Guru ji doesnt want us to MISS the Plant World...The cruelty involved in the Animal World is so huge and obvious that we ( and everyone else esp those who claim higehr spirituality simply based on their vege diets and NOTHING ELSE )..in THAT sense Gurbanee presents a Balanced role for us to follow.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38391

Btw..i own a family of 8 dogs..who love me too much and i love them back too much to let them be deprived of their meat diet....i cnat imagine my dogs liivng on green peas and potatoes...so i like a billion other humans who have pets..just CANNOT get off the "meat buying"" wagon...as for me.....no matter how cruel the slaughter houses are...i feel PITY for the DEER racing its heart out before being driven into the ground by the cheetah or the lioness..biting its head off...i feel so much pity for the poor buffalo mother trying so hard to save her foal from the Relentless lions, jackals and hyennas..who will not rest until they have fed themselves...such is LIFE..and we live it to the best of our abilities..each to his own...no guilt and nor self righteous high horse riding...minimize suffering...

Randip Singh · #49 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PunjabiEspada

I still firmly believe that what Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji contains is law and truth. Only some people twist it to bend to their beliefs. I see now that there is no point in showing these quotes from Sri Guru Grant Sahib Ji since neither of us will change our beliefs.

Let's turn this into a simple question

Why do "you" eat meat?

[this isn't directed at the quoted person, just everyone who eats meat in general

God help us, if this is pitiful state of Sikhs. I have lost count of the number of PunjabiEspada's we've had on here sticking their noses into the buisness of what they eat.

What business is it of yours what people eat? The Rehat Maryada clearly allows Sikhs to eat meat. Are you a higher authority than the Akal Takht? Bani does not have a view on this. People just twist it to suit their own pallet.

Randip Singh · #50 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Teeka FKW employed; all systems ready.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥
Kabīr bẖāŉg mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāŉhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਮਛੀ ਆਦਿਕੋਂ ਕਾ ਜੋ (ਭਾਂਗ) ਮਾਸ ਔਰ (ਸੁਰਾ) ਮਦਰਾ ਭਾਵ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਹੈ ਇਨ ਵਸਤੂ ਕੋ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪੁਰਸ਼ ਖਾਤੇ (ਪਾਨਿ) ਪੀਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਮਾਸ ਕਾ ਨਾਮ ਂਭੰਗਾਂ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥
Sri Kabir ji says that those who eat the flesh and wine from fish, etc. The author translated ਭਾਂਗ as flesh based on how the word is used by Bhai Gurdas ji: ਜੀਆਂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾਂ. ਭੰਗਾਂ means flesh.

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāŉhi. ||233||
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

ਯਦਪਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮਾਦੀ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮ ਭੀ ਤਿਨੋਂ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਹੂਏ ਹੋਵੈਂ ਤੌ ਭੀ ਉਹ (ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲ) ਨਰਕ ਕੋ ਹੀ ਜਾਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਭਾਵ ਊਚ ਗਤੀ ਜੋ ਮੋਖ ਪਦ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਔ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਭਰਮਤੇ ਰਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥੨੩੩॥ ❀ਅਪਨਾ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਦੇਖਾਵਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥
Even if they go on pilgrimages, hold fasts and follow religious codes, they will go to hell, meaning they will not attain a higher state that of mukti and be free from reincarnation.

Sant Kabir ji is vegetarian (and sober) Harry ji, he is telling you to stop eating meat and wine. He believes both hinder spiritual progress.

Don't eat buttered bread either:

Page 1379
Those who eat buttered bread, will suffer in terrible pain. || 28 |

Randip Singh · #51 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PunjabiEspada

if you're agitated, kay, but yo there is really no reason to worry about creation; whatever happened, happened and no one will ever know how the universe was created and there is no theory that comes even close to finding out how. I do not seek heated debate; I only seek to inform

and taste, I figured, got it

oh and most veggie items are actually cheaper ie. Freebirds vegetarian burritos and subway's veggie delite subs [both amazingly delicious]

anyways you do know that in order for people to achieve that taste, innocent animals nowadays are subjected to horrific conditions in factories and killed horribly

not to sound like a pretentious you-know-what; but when I ate meat, I at least wanted to know the truth and not blindly be ignorant; since realization of truth is above all else, and higher still is truthful living

this video really shows what goes on

all I'm saying is, is taste really worth the mass pain and suffering on this scale of animals?

Stop your scaremongering nonsense please!!! This sounds like an advert from those loonies at Peta.

You can buy organic. You can buy responsibly sourced. You can go to farms and select your own. You can rear your own. There are a number of options. ......and Subway and fast food generally is crap!! I would not touch it with a barge poll.

Randip Singh · #52 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PunjabiEspada

There is life in sugar cane, true.

But the nervous systems of animals such as cows and pigs are obviously a lot more vast and they are obviously feel a great deal of pain when undergoing these conditions; much more than plants who lack a nervous system.

Animals also possess emotions and the level of pain and suffering inflicted during the modern day era is ridiculously massive due to human greed

which is why I just don't see the need for all this mass pain and suffering dealt to these animals when there is another clearly available, healthy, and cheap option of being vegetarian

It's a simple matter of morals. Contribute to this massive slaughter of 140 billion animals suffering on a huge scale a year under horrific conditions for "taste" or just choose to not eat meat

Which morals? Your morals? Sikh morals?

Have you seen the horrendous suffering that mass crop farming produces to wild life? Any idea what pesticides do to the water table and rivers?

Randip Singh · #53 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Randip Singh ji,
Would you agree that higher conscious beings like humans and other animals suffer more than lower conscious (if any) beings like plants?
If an animal was put through the wooden rollers and crushed, do you reckon it would suffer more than a plant?
If rocks (lowest form of consciousness if any) were placed in the wooden rollers, do you think the would suffer less than a plant?

I don't know who suffers more or less. As soon as we as humans suffer bad pain we go into trauma and hence cutting out pain.

What I do know is that Baba Nanak chose in Bani to use a metaphor of a plant suffering pain. Surely that is absurd?

Randip Singh · #54 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BhagatSingh

Teeka FKW employed; all systems ready.

ਕਬੀਰ ਭਾਂਗ ਮਾਛੁਲੀ ਸੁਰਾ ਪਾਨਿ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਨੀ ਖਾਂਹਿ ॥
कबीर भांग माछुली सुरा पानि जो जो प्रानी खांहि ॥
Kabīr bẖāŉg mācẖẖulī surā pān jo jo parānī kẖāŉhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -

ਸ੍ਰੀ ਕਬੀਰ ਜੀ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਮਛੀ ਆਦਿਕੋਂ ਕਾ ਜੋ (ਭਾਂਗ) ਮਾਸ ਔਰ (ਸੁਰਾ) ਮਦਰਾ ਭਾਵ ਸ਼ਰਾਬ ਹੈ ਇਨ ਵਸਤੂ ਕੋ ਜੋ ਜੋ ਪੁਰਸ਼ ਖਾਤੇ (ਪਾਨਿ) ਪੀਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥ ਜੀਆਂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾਂ ਭਾਈ ਗੁਰਦਾਸ ਜੀ ਮਾਸ ਕਾ ਨਾਮ ਂਭੰਗਾਂ ਕਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥
Sri Kabir ji says that those who eat the flesh and wine from fish, etc. The author translated ਭਾਂਗ as flesh based on how the word is used by Bhai Gurdas ji: ਜੀਆਂ ਘਾਇ ਨ ਖਾਈਐ ਭੰਗਾਂ. ਭੰਗਾਂ means flesh.

ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮ ਕੀਏ ਤੇ ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਜਾਂਹਿ ॥੨੩੩॥
तीरथ बरत नेम कीए ते सभै रसातलि जांहि ॥२३३॥
Ŧirath baraṯ nem kī▫e ṯe sabẖai rasāṯal jāŉhi. ||233||
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. ||233||

ਯਦਪਿ ਤੀਰਥ ਬਰਤ ਨੇਮਾਦੀ ਸੁਭ ਕਰਮ ਭੀ ਤਿਨੋਂ ਕੇ ਕੀਏ ਹੂਏ ਹੋਵੈਂ ਤੌ ਭੀ ਉਹ (ਸਭੈ ਰਸਾਤਲ) ਨਰਕ ਕੋ ਹੀ ਜਾਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਭਾਵ ਊਚ ਗਤੀ ਜੋ ਮੋਖ ਪਦ ਹੈ ਤਿਸ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਾਪਤਿ ਨਹੀਂ ਹੋਤੇ ਹੈਂ ਔ ਚਉਰਾਸੀ ਮੈਂ ਹੀ ਭਰਮਤੇ ਰਹਿਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥੨੩੩॥ ❀ਅਪਨਾ ਸੰਕਲਪ ਦੇਖਾਵਤੇ ਹੈਂ॥
Even if they go on pilgrimages, hold fasts and follow religious codes, they will go to hell, meaning they will not attain a higher state that of mukti and be free from reincarnation.

Sant Kabir ji is vegetarian (and sober) Harry ji, he is telling you to stop eating meat and wine. He believes both hinder spiritual progress.

Surely this is in the context of Fools who wrangle over flesh. If put into context this shabad is not talking about fish, flesh meat or anything but those who have lots of money and exploit others.So the mistranslation is irrelevant.

1. Those mortals who consume marijuana, flesh and wine - no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. (Sri Guru Granth Sahib p1337)

In this instance let us firstly add the Gurmukhi with the English:

mukat padaarath paa-ee-ai thaak na avghat ghaat.
231
kabeer ayk gharhee aaDhee gharee aaDhee hooN tay aaDh.
bhagtan saytee gostay jo keenay so laabh. 232
kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
neechay lo-in kar raha-o lay saajan ghat maahi.
sabh ras khayla-o pee-a sa-o kisee lakhaava-o naahi. 234
aath jaam cha-usath gharee tu-a nirkhat rahai jee-o.
neechay lo-in ki-o kara-o sabh ghat daykh-a-u pee-o. 235
sun sakhee pee-a meh jee-o basai jee-a meh basai ke pee-o.
jee-o pee-o boojha-o nahee ghat meh jee-o ke pee-o. 236
kabeer baaman guroo hai jagat kaa bhagtan kaa gur naahi.
arajh urajh kai pach moo-aa chaara-o baydahu maahi.237
har hai khaaNd rayt meh bikhree haathee chunee na jaa-ay.
kahi kabeer gur bhalee bujhaa-ee keetee ho-ay kai khaa-ay. 238
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee sees kaat kar go-ay.
khaylat khaylat haal kar jo kichh ho-ay ta ho-ay. 239
kabeer ja-o tuhi saaDh piramm kee paakay saytee khayl.
kaachee sarsa-uN payl kai naa khal bha-ee na tayl.240
dhooNdhat doleh anDh gat ar cheenat naahee sant.
kahi naamaa ki-o paa-ee-ai bin bhagtahu bhagvant. 241
har so heeraa chhaad kai karahi aan kee aas.
tay nar dojak jaahigay sat bhaakhai ravidaas. 242
kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243

He obtains the treasure of liberation, and the difficult road to the Lord is not blocked.
231
Kabeer, whether is is for an hour, half an hour, or half of that,
whatever it is, it is worthwhile to speak with the Holy. 232
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine -
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Kabeer, I keep my eyes lowered, and enshrine my Friend within my heart.
I enjoy all pleasures with my Beloved, but I do not let anyone else know.234
Twenty-four hours a day, every hour, my soul continues to look to You, O Lord.
Why should I keep my eyes lowered? I see my Beloved in every heart. 235
Listen, O my companions: my soul dwells in my Beloved, and my Beloved dwells in my soul.
I realize that there is no difference between my soul and my Beloved; I cannot tell whether my soul or my Beloved dwells in my heart. 236
Kabeer, the Brahmin may be the guru of the world, but he is not the Guru of the devotees.
He rots and dies in the perplexities of the four Vedas. 237
The Lord is like sugar, scattered in the sand; the elephant cannot pick it up.
Says Kabeer, the Guru has given me this sublime understanding: become an ant, and feed on it. 238
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, then cut off your head, and make it into a ball.
Lose yourself in the play of it, and then whatever will be, will be. 239
Kabeer, if you desire to play the game of love with the Lord, play it with someone with committment.
Pressing the unripe mustard seeds produces neither oil nor flour. 240
Searching, the mortal stumbles like a blind person, and does not recognize the Saint.
Says Naam Dayv, how can one obtain the Lord God, without His devotee?

Taking out the sentence we see

kabeer bhaaNg maachhulee suraa paan jo jo paraanee khaaNhi.
Kabeer, those mortals who consume marijuana, fish and wine –

tirath barat naym kee-ay tay sabhai rasaatal jaaNhi. 233
no matter what pilgrimages, fasts and rituals they follow, they will all go to hell. 233
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Firstly note that maachlee is not flesh, but is indeed fish. The word in Punjabi for flesh is maas. Then secondly one must ask, why is there a forbidding in the consumption of fish specifically. The answer lies in reading the entire paragraph and a picture emerges. In the last two lines the statement is made:

kabeer ja-o garihu karahi ta Dharam kar naahee ta kar bairaag.
Kabeer, if you live the householder's life, then practice righteousness; otherwise, you might as well retire from the world.

bairaagee banDhan karai taa ko bado abhaag. 243
If someone renounces the world, and then gets involved in worldly entanglements, he shall suffer terrible misfortune. 243
Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji

Now putting this in its entire context what Bhagat Kabir is actually criticising in the rich and those in power. The thrill seekers, who are addicted to their senses and those addicted to the 5 thieves. Kabir was born around the area of Benares, and was brought up in a poor Muslim weavers family. He saw the excesses of the rich around him, while the poor starved. Foods like fish and wine were associated with the rich who had an excessive disposable income. Marijuana was associated with either idol people or those who had time and money to waste. Kabir abhorred this, and this statement is a social comment about the excesses of the rich. At the end he clearly states, that those people who do their duties as householders (i.e. work hard, care for other etc) are the ones who will be liberated, and those who live by excesses will suffer. One cantherefore clearly see that this is in no way a comment about eating meat (because of mistranslation) or about avoiding certain foods (as has been misrepresented).