Alcohol Good for the Heart? Not Really!

Sinner Singh ji

My response is going to seem like I am pushing a technicality too far. However, I don't think so. The use of the English word "sinner" is a translation decision made by a translator trying to convey the meaning of a tuk to an English speaking audience. There is a problem with this. The words so translated as "sinner" do not mean "sinner." This concept is western, and Judaeo Christian. It has little application to dharmic understanding. That is one of the reasons why many forum members become irritated by English translations. We are stuck with them, because without them, anyone who lacks Punjabi skills would be completely denied access to the shabad of Guru Granth Sahib ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/health-and-nutrition/28686-alcohol-good-for-heart-not-really.html

The meaning in each of those tuks needs individual attention because a single word, "sinner," is not quite right for every shabad in which it is used. That is why we have a rule at SPN. Individual tuks must be discussed with the full shabad, along with Gurmukhi and English. The shabad in every case gives the context for understanding this idea of "sinner." And there are better ways and words to use in translation.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

In spite of the fact that Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa M.D. has produced "the consensus translation" per SGPC, there is no consensus in the panth that his translations are consistently adequate.

Now when I have time, and the forum software is behaving itself, i will take 2 of those tuks and demonstrate how the word "sinner" is out of place.

 
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well ,it will not be a sin. As a Sikh, i don't believe in ******** of sin. I think the reason Gurbani doesn't want people to drink is due to problems it can cause in people's life. Any thing relating to medical reason will never be a sin. I drink and i smoke but i focus on my actions rather than what i use. If alcohol is a sin then why not taking anti-depressant for a person who is severely depressed. Let the Catholics and Muslims worry about sins let us Sikhs focus on following Sri Guru Granth Shaib.

c

Guru Piayario Jios..
GURBANI is strictly for the SOUL..the MANN..the ATMA..whatever you call it.
GURBANI is NOT for the physical BODY.
Guru Ji gives ample examples of whats for the BODY and whats for the Mann...
The trouble with those prevailing theologies at the Guru Period was ( still IS ) was the MIXING of.."whats good for the BODY..with whats GOOD for the SOUL !!Guru Ji SEPERATES the CHAFF from the WHEAT !!

1. Chief mix up...BATHING the BODY..as CURE of 'sins" of the MANN !!
Guru Ji clearly declared...PHYSICAL CLEANING of the BODY is necessary to wash the OUTSIDE DIRT....IF the CLOTH is dirty..use SOAP !!..BUT SOAP is NOT the medium that will "wash" the Kaala siah blackened MANN - for that wahsing what is needed is NAAM !!
BUT MILLIONS still continue to Bathe at "holy teeraths" and hope to wash the MANN !! SIKHS also began to follow the SHEEP who were admonished by GURU NANAK JI and told categorically that bathing at holy waters is NOT the way to clean the Mann !!.

2. Among the other MISCONCEPTIONS prevalent...THEN..and NOW...is that reading paaths/granths/vedas/puraanas/koranas/mumbling holy words and counting the "mumbles" via malas/beads/automatic counters/voice controlled counters whatever...will earn the MANN merits...

3. Fasting...staying away from food..water..cutting the body..banging onbes heads on the walls/pillars/ground/claimbing hundred steps using only the knees..rolling on the ground..hanging ones arms up, keeping awake fro long periods..etc etc etc TORTURE of the BODY..to make GOD Happy/earn MERIT for the mann...

ALL these and more..are clearly CONDEMNED...actively DISCOURAGED as utterly useless for the MANN.

What is ENCOURAGED ?? Gurbani encourages a HEATHY BODY !! Exactly what the DOCTORS tell us today...Guru Nanak ji told us 500 years ago. A HEALTHY HAPPY WELL FED BODY...clean from all outside dirt..diseases..etc is called the HARMANDAR..Gods OWN ABODE !! ONLY in such happy healthy Beautiful natural Body can the MANN be Healthy Happy and HOLY.

ALCOHOL ( and related drugs) are DISCOURAGED primarily becasue these ALL ACT more on the MIND..rather than the BODY. Gurbani declares that..Alcohol is a substance that...the moment it enters the BODY...Aral-Barl ( UTTER NONSENSE) begins issuing form the MOUTH..the perosn loses all inhibitions/self control/fails to recognise his own and those who are strangers....he loses social control, talks and does actions he would normally NOT DO WHEN SOBER !! Compare this to "meat eating"...NONE of this happens..after consuming a whole chicken..the man is neither walking crooked...he is not out of control..he is not legally disallowed from driving...he doesnt talk nonsense..his mind/mental control is not reduced in any way...the ONLY thing not quite right in this scenario is (and Bhagat Kabir Ji's Gurbani Tuks address this ) is that USUALLY those who DRINK ALCOHOL..almost ALWAYS consume MEAT as well !! I would say that 99.9% of Alcohol drinkers are also MEAT eaters.....Meat will always Go hand in hand wth Alcohol !!
The Framers of the SRM in their wisdom saw this...That is WHY..while the ALCOHOL is Categoricllay Banned..its listed as a KUREHIT that is PUNISHABLE by bestowal of PATIT STATUS. There is no distinction made that "mild" alcohol..just one drink..or social drinking..etc etc is "allowed".for "medical" reasons..etc etc.. NO JI..the BAN is 100% NO EXCEPTIONS.
PERIOD...IMBIBE just ONE DROP..and you are PATIT. no questions.
MEAT however has an EXCEPTION CLAUSE...becasue it has a saving grace...BY ITSELF meat consumption is not bad per se..what is BANNEd is HALLAL- SACRIFICIAL MEAT which contravenes the INDEPENDENCE OF KHALSA !! Going under "hallal" means a Khalsa has to BOW to "laws/regulations" mandatory of another religion...and since the Khalsa only BOWS to Akal Purakh..this bowing is not permitted. BOWING to someone other than AKAL PURAKH makes one a PATIT.( It is stated clearly in the preamble fo the SRM that a SIKH BOWS his head to no other than the ten Gurus, Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Akal Purakh ONLY.)

Gyani ji

I apologize to you for following up with a thought that is not close to your standard of scholarship and common sense. Please forgive me. But I cannot help myself and need to add this.

There is nothing "Good" about alcohol. Its effects are either indifferent or destructive and harmful. DESTRUCTIVE. HARMFUL. I like what you said about "saving grace".... it works almost like a litmus test. Does alcohol have a "saving grace?" Quite the contrary. Nothing good can be said about it. Only neutral or negative things can be said about it. Gurbani is our light to a virtuous life. Such a life is our journey to Waheguru. It is a tough journey. Alcohol does not make the trip easier and in fact can make it difficult. So Guru Nanak is telling his Sikhs: That is one piece of luggage you want to leave by the side of the road. Nothing is in that suitcase that is of any benefit to you. You can dispense with it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

I am again amazed, in thinking about the issue of this thread, at the brilliance of Guruji. We are never beaten down by demoralizing speeches in Gurbani. We are given instead encouragement to lighten our load, taught to find "spiritual ease," and encouraged to dispense with anything that has no merit, or can harm us.

Gettinghighji
It is hard to read this without a slight feeling of sadness, that someone so young, and with so much potential to feel the grace of the creator, can state so directly and with pride about drinking and smoking.

Having said that, When I was your age, I did similar things, but without contemplating Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. So I suppose that makes you a better man than me when I was your age.

I admire your honesty and I hope that one day you find the same feelings in gurmukhi, and I am sure you will. I still have a way to go, but I have been asking these questions only this year, so you are in fact way way ahead of me.

What I would say is watch the effect that intoxicants have on your actions, depending on which narcotics you use, you may find that these actions are not in fact yours, they are the actions of a person on narcotics!

But I have to admire your honesty, maybe if we were all as honest as this young man about our own individual failings, (including those that cannot be seen), then it would be easier to address lust, envy, et al.

This person, and myself, are no more manmukh than the many men who letch at women, but deny it, even to themselves. In fact such men are worse, as they lack honesty.

I would like to press forward the point that I agree completely that alcohol has no place in sikhism, and that in order to be at one with the creator, alcohol, I believe would prohibit that. And to anyone who would ask, in that case why do you drink, when it takes you away from the guru, not closer, I would say there are many things that take you away from the guru, and many that bring you closer, I am just following my path, with a view to dumping all the bad things in my suitcase eventually

I have just realised gettinhighji, your age does not show, but I am assuming possibly wrongly you are in your early twenties

Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji unquestionably tells us not to imbibe toxicants so if you want to focus on Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji then you must accept this fact.

Sinner Singh ji,
It is a rule at SPN to NEVER quote single lines and focus on just the literal translation. The structure of a shabad is to develop ideas through it so the final lesson makes sense. By taking a single line out of context, the message gets lost. I would also encourage you to give your own undertsanding of the shabad and what it actually means rather than just posting a translation.

Sinner has been dealt with brilliantly by Spnadmin ji so I'll stick to the drunk part in this post. Am short of time today so will comeback and post about the actual shabads another day. If you want to tackle of those you quoted from in particular then feel free to repost the entire shabad in Gurmukhi and English, with ang no and your understanding as that will make an easier starting point for discussion.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

Your argument is alcohol is ok as long as you don't get drunk. However, I'm sure you know from experience that sometimes even 1 drink is enough to make a person drunk! I'm sure you also know from experience that when you go out socially and drink it is very hard to stick to just 1 drink!! There is social pressure of having more and the 1st drink lowers your inhibitions. If you really are only there socially then why not have a soft drink in your glass or bottle? If 1 drink was completely safe then why do some countries have 0 alcohol limit? Romania, Brazil, Canada (for new drivers), Hungary and Czech Republic among others recognise that even minute traces of alcohol can cause problems. Medical professions do not allow staff to have a single drop while working as they recognise that it can impair judgment.

I can give an addict (though they might not admit they are) as many good reasons as I can for not drinking and they will always come back with but but but. Let's turn things around. Sikhism teaches us to be reposnsible and think about all our actions. So let's try and understand why anyone drinks alcohol? The common reasons (an my rebuttal) are:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686
1) To be sociable
If it really is only for social reasons then why not go along and have a soft drink? What difference does the content of your glass make?

2) To lose some inhibitions
3) To get drunk and lose senses
Both of these reasons are not compatible with a Sikhi lifestyle. Gurbani tells us to always keep hold of our senses so that we can always behave responsibly and not cause harm. Only by keeping hold of our senses can we even try to combat the 5 chor that are acting as barriers to stop us feeling a connection to Waheguru.

4) Peer pressure
Sikhs are taught to have immense inner strength. We are taught to interact with the world and live in it but without being touched by the negative influences.

5) Stress relief or escapism
It's only a short term fix and can have the opposite effects in some cases. Longterm, it provides no stress relief and will add to problems (including financial!).

Sinner Singh ji, Many if not most of the contributions you have made to SPN have been welcomed, and I have personally thanked you for them. In addition, leaders here have made that extra effort to help with technical issues as they arose without grumbling. For the most part we have not had negative interactions with you.

I need to point out for everyone that free speech, however much it stirs debate, is not always good for debate. Free speech is always a conditional right, conditions determined according to the rules that govern civil interactions. In a forum these interactions are governed by Terms of Service. Some, if not most Sikh forums pre-approve comments before they can be posted. Others pre-approve for new members as in a probationary period. This forum does not pre-approve anything anyone prints and then admin or moderators review daily and decide whether TOS is violated. If so, then editing or deletions are made.

There is one Sikh forum, very well known, where pre-moderation was dropped in favor of our model. In a few months the moderators felt the need to go back to the earlier approach, particularly on discussions affecting fundamentals of Sikh belief.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

Of course when "my" comments are deleted it does sting. That has also happened to me from time to time. There have been instances when my comments were not published by email groups. I did not like it either. So I know how it feels.

So far none of the moderators have asked me to reconsider my deletions. And we have to think always of the effects that comments have on all of our readers, not just those who favor alcohol or those who do not.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

I hope my words make it clear that some one has to be in charge of deciding when the limits on free speech have been reached.

"So far none of the moderators have asked me to reconsider my deletions. And we have to think always of the effects that comments have on all of our readers, not just those who favor alcohol or those who do not. "
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

I am going to say that anyone who drinks, and calls himself a sikh, is no worse than anyone who letches at women. I think the fundamental difference is the feeling related to letching or drinking. By all means have a drink if that is what you wish, and, I drink myself sometimes, but speaking for the sikh drinking community, let us not try and justify what we do, anymore than a letch can justify what he does.

To any sikh who thinks he can enjoy a drink, have the latest bollywood haircut, etc and still find the union of the creator, no, sorry, you cannot, you will find knowledge and forgiveness, but not the ultimate prize, and the question then is, just how important is the feeling of alcohol in your stomach compared with the feeling of god welded to your heart

Alcohol is a bar to union with the creator. Simple as that. For every drink I have, I am moving away from the truth. You may well ask why do I drink?, I enjoy the odd beer, and thats pretty much it. I have my good days when I am pure and respectful, and then I have the odd bad day, when I am not so pure., in time, those impure days will cease, not because I am going to beat myself with a big stick, but because I will find understanding and wisdom so that those days become a rarity, and then non existent

To my fellow sikh drinkers, it is our choice to drink, but let us at least be embarrassed by it.

To my brother in arms sinnerji, I think you are a wonderful soul, I see myself in you sometimes, I think that, like me, you are also full of mischief, like a young child, (someone came in for directions the other day, go left out of here, i said, then left, a bit more, then left again, and finally left again, where will i be, they said, back here, i said, but hopefully someone else will be around to give you better directions)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=28686

Sinnerji, I sense a huge need to be accepted for what you are, drink and all, I do not think that is a huge problem for anyone, BUT, having read some of the posts before they were deleted, I think spnadminji was doing you a favour, as I felt they showed you in a negative light, and did not truly reflect the intellect and wisdom you actually possess