Caste

WGJKK WGJKF ....

Moving off at an slight angle, please read below and offer comments ....


Both my Mother and Father believe that all caste differentiation was abolished via Guru Ji, they believe that we are all equal in status, that we are all sikhs.
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Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782
Fathers view is that Guru Gobind ji made all castes equal, but did not abolish them. My Mothers view is that all castes are equal, and are abolished at time of baptism(amrit).

Furthermore, I would like to ask : Guru Gobind Singh Ji renamed the panj pyare SINGH, why do we have a 'family' name at the end, does this not follow caste identification?

Can I have your comments please.

 
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Gurfateh

Brother Amritpal Singh of Amritworld has views like that of your father but das has more support for your mmothers views.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782

Gurus did convert mnay Muslims also.Say Sayyads of Gildiyals near Rawal Pindi ie ancestors of great scholar Sher Singh Kashmeer(who proved that Dasham Granth is from Tenth Master),Baheemi was converted to Ajmeer Singh,Whole Nihungs were from Shias.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782

So we know that no caste could be assigned to them.

Dear Friend

As I understand using your family name for what ever reason created confusion and could lead to discrimination at some point and definately it represents the sense of attachment to somebody else beside our Spirtual father ( Guru Gobind Singh Ji) whether it is your great grandfathers , ancester or inherit ego inside you .

Said so I dont want to mean that people all who dont use surmane are without ego but still it is much simpler and promotes unity in Sikh Panth
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Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782



Jatinder Singh

Guru Gobind Singh ji said:

Manaas Ki Jaat Ehk Pachano

Recognise the Human Race as One

Here Jaat means race. It can also mean caste, creed and gender. I don't think I need to elaborate further than that.

If you are recognising your fellow human as somehow inferior or a different type of Human than you then you have no place in Sikhism.

Guruji abolished castism, racism and sexism in one swift blow when those swords tudded in the tent and the Panj Pyarey were baptised.

As for surname......I think that is done for practical purposes. Even Guru Gobind Singh Ji acknowledges in the Dasam Granth his lineage.....but he also acknowledges that in the bigger picture it does not matter one iota.

Caste has been misinterpreted as being hereditary whereas Krishna states clearly
in the Bhagavad Gita that caste is a classification of people's potential. A single
family might have children with qualities that are suitable for Brahmins, Kshatri-yas,
Vaishyas, or Shudras.

A child interested in academics can be said to have Brahminical qualities; the one
wanting to join the armed forces can be said to be Kshatriya-like, the one who
prefers business has Vaishya gunas and the one who likes serving has Shudra gunas.

You might even find more than one trait in one person. Microsoft's Bill Gates,
for instance, can be said to be of quadri-caste since his functions and aptitude
contain elements of all four castes.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782

Attributing everything in Creation as being dominated by three gunas saatvic,
rajasic and tamasic Krishna says that all beings are under the influence of these gunas.

The three qualities determine our intelligence, emotions, behaviour, actions, habits,
impul-ses, everything. Unlike other life forms, human beings have the capability
to hone and polish specific skills and qualities. Krishna the perfect counsellor
tells us which vocation to follow to gain the ultimate goal of self-realisation.

For example, there are nine functional qualities of a Brahmin as enumerated by Krishna:
serenity, self-control, austerity, purity, forgiveness, simplicity, scriptural proficiency,
spiritual attainment and adherence to theological principles (18.42).

A competent warrior must have qualities of heroism, resplendence, and fortitude (18.43).

When rajoguna is mixed with tamoguna it gives birth to Vaishya-like qualities, says Krishna,
and they pertain to agriculture, animal husbandry, and commerce.

Some are naturally interested in service, and so are suitable for those professions that
require a predominantly service-component. Whatever one's potential and interest,
the ultimate aim is self-realisation, and not self-gratification. These qualities do not
bestow any special status on anyone; they are not even hereditary.

Krishna states: "The four divisions have been created by Me according to the
classifications based on natural qualities and functioning but in this act know
Me as the immutable, Non-doer" (4.13).

There is no nobility in these divisions, as they are merely functional.

The aim of life being self-realisation, the two pillars which help this are varna and ashram.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782
Varna based on natural tendencies can help in deciding the appropriate field of activity
which would help in achieving the goal of life.

To consider oneself superior or inferior is not sanctioned by shastras for such a perception
leads to self-degradation. One who is born in a trader's family, for instance, might have
an advantage due to environmental parameters but there can be exceptions.

The most important factor in choosing a profession is one's natural aptitude.
Choosing a profession one likes or for which one has the aptitude gives inner
satisfaction and leads to self-realisation.

Thanks.

WGJIK WGJIF

Brother Randip,

Guru Ji abolished the differentiation between all sikhs / castes.
Guru Ji abolished the caste moniker at baptism by securing only a SINGH surname.

I have a open mind on this subject, however your above quote does not contradict the above.

Please elaborate if poss.

WGJKK WGJKF

Brother Buleshah,

If your first sentance is true, then the misconception of heredritary 'tag', is generations wide, and on a worldwide scale. It is unfortunate indeed that thousands convert 'from' Hinduism towards another faith such as Islam, due to this 'misconception', and thousands more dismiss it as an avenue / path when 'looking' for God, for this reson again.

Tell me, who is it that defines this 'tag', is it the head of the family, head of the local Mandir, or Head Teacher? Is it not this 'tag' that leads certain people to be rejected from some Mandirs in India, and deemed 'untouchable' by others?


Jas

I am not of Indian decent so perhaps it is easy for me, but the simplicity of it is there is no room for caste, or toughts of caste within Sikhi. Just the thought that one man is lower than another is alien to Sikhi, and the idea that this is so based on what family name you have seems plain idiotic to me.

Jazz and Lee,

I was not expecting much from the progeny of the clergy of the Golden Temple, led by Arur Singh,
who had honoured the massacring Gen Dyer by declaring him a Sikh, on condition that he renounce
one cigarette a year.......But I'm forced to continue to reply to such Neo-Sikhs. You see, like them,
I'm caught in a trap of my own making -- The Incredible Heaviness of Being Macho. If I ignore your
post, it'll be taken as my inability to refute your rank garbage; and if I begin explaining, it'll be
perceived as a chicken-hearted retreat in face of the malevolent campaign aimed at my views.
What to do. A retro-Sikh-Hindu can be no less daft. Therefore, let me assert by saying:
I do NOT retract a single word from what I said.

Your claim that Sikhism is caste-free and that this sets it apart from Hinduism (on the assumption
that caste is intrinsic to Hinduism), is simply untrue. Every Hindu knows that Sikhs have not
ceased practising caste. The acknowledgement of caste identities was presumably acceptable
to the Gurus, for the Gurus themselves married their own children according to traditional caste
prescriptions. The anti-caste thrust of the Gurus’ teachings must be seen as a doctrine which
referred to spiritual deliverance and a firm rejection of injustice or hurtful discrimination based
on caste status. What is not implied is a total obliteration of caste identity.

Sikhs marry with Hindus of the same caste, while they still avoid marriage with Sikhs of
different castes. Likewise, Sikh politics is largely divided along caste lines, e.g. the Akali
movement is one of Jat Sikhs, shunned by low-caste Sikhs (who are called Mazhabi Sikhs,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8782
that is, Sikhs by religion alone, e.g. former Congress minister Buta Singh) and by the
higher Khatri and Arora and Bedi castes to which the Gurus belonged.

Please don't talk to me of any casteless society in India -- where even Muslims and Christians
demand reservations for their OBCs. Why didn't anyone challenge Tara Singh's demand vis-a-vis
Harijan Sikhs? What's a Khatri, Jat, Shimbae, Kumiar...? What's written in scriptures, isn't what
Indian society follows -- so cut the crap.

Thanks.