Can there ever be TOTAL equality of sexes?

I'm wondering whether we are just deluding ourselves by stating that case that Sikhism is for TOTAL equality of the sexes when in reality and in teaches and historical times of the Guru's there is little evidence for this.

For example Guru Govind Singh ji created the Khalsa (saint soliders)

Out of a crowd of thousands of Sikhs only 5 dared stand up and openly embrace death by giving their lives to the Guru. Thus the panj pyare were born and Sikh men were given the title Singh (lion) and Sikh women the title Kaur (princess). These are gender specific titles and rightly so... cos 5 MEN stood up and were prepared to lay down their lives for Guru Ji no woman did....
Guru Ji did not created Singhnee's (lioness's) or Kaurar's (princes's ???) z

Yet we have some groups of western Sikhs who want the rights for women to be panj pyare, which I find absurd cos historically its set in stone. There is no question however of Sikh women not being warriors are history has shown many have gone into battle, arms raised, hand in hand with their menfolk, against the enemies of the time.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/5418-can-there-ever-total-equality-sexes.html

And another example when Guru Nanak Dev Ji talked about women being put down by Muslim and Hindu texts and practises I believe he was saying treat them with respect and with compassion becos they human and not some tool to be used and abused. Yet now we have society in the West were the role of man is devalued and has largely become irrelevant appart from hard manual labour.

It goes to show TOTAL equality of the sexes does not and will not ever come about. Because there willl always be these extremes where sexes discriminate each other in the family or the workplace.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5418

Let me state though in spirituality terms, both sexes are equal and no one gender is superior in the eyes of God according to Sikhism to my understanding. But practially we have roles in society which we should adhere to and not cross unless we want society to descend into anarchy and the collapse of the human social structure, which has seen us through all the ages of human history.

 
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Exactly what gender specific roles in society were you talking about when u said that Sikh N Sleek ji???? And how exactly will they "collapse the human social structure? If u could please explain.
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

Dear Friend,

As you said there is no difference in spirituality terms in sexes then i am confused do you consider being Punj Pyare IS some thing non spiritual. In fact in my understanding it is peak of spirituality in Sikhism and if women cant do this then off-course you have discriminated women.

Now about the event that occurred on eve of birth of Khalsa on 1999 when 5 men stood up to give their head and become Punj Pyare. So as all of them were men so they have have secured the this right of being Punj Pyare for all rest of the male humanity but not rest of the female so what do you think of rest of the men sitting there beside Punj Pyare do they deserve to be Punj Pyare How would you differentiate the capability of all the rest of men present there and the women present there... well you could call them all WOMEN or may be less then perfect human as Our Punj Pyare were perfect so they were chosen for the cause not because they were male .

Now I agree with you that off-course both sexes are not equal and they were meant to be different by Akal Purakh and off-course there are some roles in human society that could be played better by one sex than the other but this does not mean that we should draw strict lines on gender based roles as in changing society and living condition ( just to remind that this change is also in Hukam of Akal Itself) adjustment need to be made in various role that are played by the both sexes.

Now If you think that women has missed the opportunity 300 years back so you will not allow then now to have this opportunity my friend such historical things are of importance to dead religions not the Sikhi Which as Alive as it was at time of Guru Gobind Singh ji the same Alive Guru is still with us( Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) if some body has missed the opportunity at that time ( which applies to all the people present there both men and women at the time of birth of Khalsa in 1999) he can avail it now .


Jatinder Singh

Dear all,
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru JI KI fateh.

Absolutely correct Ji. The GURU KHALSA PANTH is a LIVING RELIGION under a LIVING GURU..constantly evolving and changing

Just because a woman did not stand up to offer her head way back in 1699 ( how many women were actually present is anybody's guess because looking at Society back then, a woman's "home work" would never get done...fetching water from far away, grinding the atta, collecting the firewood, cooking, washing, taking care of the roti paani of her husband in the fields, weaving cloth....back then women had a lot more housework..and the same 24 hours !! recently I was watching a Discovery Movie about Nepali Women...in it I saw that it takes a Nepali Rural woman baout FIVE Hours daily jsut to fetch a pot of water for cooking, another few hours to collect enough firewood for the day, and it all adds up to an ENDLESS GRIND just to eat-sleep-get up-eat-sleep...)...THUS DOESNT mean we can DENY Women their Proper ROLE NOW. This is arcahic thinking..not suited to a VIBRANT living Religion like Gurmatt.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5418

Most probably MY own Ancestors, who may have been present in vasakhi1699 DID NOT STAND UP to be COUNTED..so does that DENY ME the chance to be a Panj piayara Today ?? Of course NOT. In which way or on what GROUNDS can I claim to be Panj paiyara ??..Just becasue I am the SAME SEX as the original Five ?? So what ?? Same SEX doesnt mean a thing....if thats all I have in common with them ..meaning I MAY be DEVOID of all the other qualities...but just becasue i happen to be MALE..i have the chance to be a Panj..while my SISTER who may have all the qualities of the Original panj..but not the SEX..is DENIED the chance ?/
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5418
SEX is WAHEGURU's CHOICE...The CHOICE to GO FORWAR and offer ones head is ONES OWN. and ladies have that RIGHT.

Jarnail Singh

truthseeker ji,

Let me give you an example .....like if you watch children... 99.9% of male kids would play with gun toys, have ruff play activies, phyiscal fights, etc

While girl kids would be more social, play with dolls, par take in activities which use the brain more less braun.

From early age it is clear how different the 2 sexes behave.

Men on the whole are physically far stronger and built for hunt gathering type jobs.

Women are designed for child bearing and other social jobs required for the betterment and survivial of humanity.

If we now say lets reverse this process by nature, which has taken thousands of years to evolve. Then we will see the collapse of human society.....and we can see the signs of it happening in the west. Just look at the amount of single mothers their are and amount of crime these days mainly carried out by young guys.

When the male role model is excluded or devauled from the relationship then the boy child in the family has no one to look upto and eventually draws influence from bad aspects of society because he has no identity he doesnt see a future, has no care in the world because to him the world doent see any use for him......hence the high rate of suicide amoung young males in UK.

What process is their at the moment in selecting panj pyare anyways?

I believe the principle of embrace death should be followed. Anyone who is willing to embrace death in the defence of Sikhism has my respect and vote for panj pyare.

As for the selectiuon of the Poanj.. if im not mistaken.. they have to be an Amritdharee Sikh, who follows thier rehit strictly, and they have to kno their Banni off by heart.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5418
Correct me if im wrong but this is what i have learnt in the past

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh!

I believe that is the case.... but I don't know the selection process to become one of the panj.

Surely only those who are willling to lay down their lives in defence of the dharam can be whether of such a glorious title.

Waheguru ji ka Khalsa, Waheguru ji ki Fateh

Well...

Is it a stretch to promote ethnic equality in Sikhi?

500 years after Guru Nanak, we have Sikh Matrimonials that introduce us to the acronyms of JSM and JSF. A cursory glance through many sites will show that the word "fair" occurs much more often than the words
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5418
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5418
"black", "dark", "tan", or "wheat" put together.

There have been many instances of ethnic slavery throughout the globe. But has there ever been a culture that TRULY promoted racial and ethnic equality in a fashion that has persevered?

There is also plenty of evidence and historical practice that caucasians have dominated the western world and non-caucasians have been relegated to a subservient role.

Isn't this proof that there are differences among the races?

Does this not justify and prove the superiority of one race over another?