Did Sant Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale ji ever get the respect he deserved as sikh martyr

Gurfateh

Das here wants to support you thsat Father of das too was in Amry and had great admirtion over the commitedness of men of Sant Ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/5324-did-sant-jarnail-singh-bhindrawale-ji.html

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324
Then as you are talking about Manjit Singh Ji.

Das would like to tell you that there was another group of Militants which was around harchand longowal and was all bent to kill Sant Ji and Hindus also.

many statemetns made after the name of Sant Ji were due to that group.

That gruop was near Langer hall and it took 5 hours to Indian army to dislodge this gruop which had Pakistani support.

while gruop of Sant Ji composed of many Ex Indian Army personal.

If you sse the historic prifile of Damdai Taksal and many men in his force you will find them free of biogatry.

If you want das can give detail of rival gruop of Sant Ji,who later on made him thier Hero while till he was alive they did all wrong they could do in his name and for him.This may means false interviews also.

Das does not want to hurt the sentiment of a particualr gruop of Sikh Brothers so he is not giving the name of that gruop.

 
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[quote=vijaydeep Singh]Gurfateh

"...many statements made after the name of Sant Ji were due to that group...."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324

The quotes I provided were from Jarnail Singh himself.

Dear Mbw

I dont know what is your intent or how much inquistive you are regarding the isuue of Jarnail Singh Bhindrawale

This is kind of mentally painful issue for me personaly And I avioid disscusing it and consider it just a waste of time

As you said you have lived in Punjab in that time 83 ,84

The same is true for me as well I was born in Amritsar and has lived there all my life and have very well first person view point of situation and Jarnail Singh ji my father like many other sikhs in amritsar used to attend the speeches at various places amritsar Manji sahib , samundari hall , majhitha and it is totally different from the view projected about him by press of the nation , even akalis who become anti to him and also most important the faction of singhs around Jarnail singh who projected the wrong pictire of him

You said he is not worth calling Sant I would not say whether you are wrong or right and anyway due to recent misuse of this word I and many other senior member on this forum have decided not to use for any body beside Our Guru sahiban . But the thing I want to tell you is about the spirtual status of the Jarnail Singh he was the head of the taksal and was more involved in the work of taksal and there wold have been enough reson for him to get involved in the petty politics of that time

I have listened to Baba Jarnail Singh speeches many times at the time i used to search for answer just like you so i know them quite well

Jarnail singh openly asked for fulfillment of Anandpur Matta which was decided by Akalis in 1973 and asked he government of india for what that was prmised to Sikhs at time of partition and as a thank you gift to sikhs for the out of proportion contribution in Freedom struggle and also not demanding different state at the time of Partition

Not to the surprise just opposite to what was promosed Indian government was not even in a mood to make punjab a province , and it was one of the last province to be decleared by the commisioned assigned for this purpose at that time in india

And yet again many sikhs has go for agitation and jails to get punjab approved as provinve and was kind of blow to sikhs in punjab and also made them aware of cebtral government attitude about the sikhs

Now anandpur matta 1973 asked for special autonomous powers for state and as you mentioned special status for punjab like Jammu
And there was nothing wrong in asking for that but offcourse this gave shivers to the government of that time

The anandpur matta asked for the autonomy to provincial government

Baba Jarnail Singh was convinced at the time that indian government is not not fare when dealing with sikhs and fear their prosperity and rise of pwer as always have been part of Sikh tradition so spoke against all these things openly and asked for justice

As you mnetioned that he monorties feared him , first of all it is difficult to decide who was minority sikh were 52 % of the population and included in then were Radaswami , Nirakari and other anti sikh faction which even make sikh to be minoruty in punjab

He wa sgainst nirankari fir very good reasons and if you dont know then you need to do some research there as well . just to mention

they as backed by anti sikh forces which could have included ruling indian goverment put an open darbar in amritsar where they openly called Guru Nanak a Beggar ,Guru Gobind a Awara / Hunter /Shikari and mocked panj pyara with making sat sitare by himself and even he sat down on diwan with his feet resting on Guru Granth sahib deliberately
well It might not be a big issue for scholars but was BIG isuue for the people like Jarnail Singh who has Dedicated their whole life as gurmat cause being head of damdami taksal
on top of that when singhs went to agitation on the spot where every thing was going on then they were fired upon by the nirankaris and 13 people were dead on the spot and our own responsible Indian government as usuall did hardly anything


if you have heard this speec yourself and also you were researching the isuue unbiased mindset hen I am really astonished that you just noted this line fo his and nothing ellse around this topic only

this part of statement he gave twice

once in samundari hall
second time in Manji sahib

when he gave this statement at Manji sahib this statemen t just took him 10 seconds to say while he exlaines for next 20 minutes why he said so and you really happen to miss that nay way i will tell you points he mentioned

He said very clearly that he is not anti hindu in any sense and gave example s fo various hindus who routinely come to him for his help , also to mention one ramayan being burnt in kapurthala and hindu asked for help of him and helped many families of hindu with money any possible thing he could have done

he mentiome that he gave his statement after the statement of Prime minister fo india Indra gandhi ( which I have heard myself ) saying that what sikh are doing punjab they have no care and thought what might happen to sikhs living in other states of india and they should think about them reacting to this statement Jarnail singh said that if this the challenge then sikhs are brave enough as history is witness and if situation arrives every sikh has 35 hindus to tackle and not a big deal

he also mentioned about no case evn after two years since the saropp of Guru Granth Sahib was burnt in Punjab

He also mentioned no inquiry in cases of sikh youth diapearances in punjab on large scale and very prompt response dof goverment in a case of one hindu youth killed in Patiala( punjab) who was mistakenly killed by police and Homeminister and even Indragandhi visited the family personally and were given compensation .

there was mention of harbans lal khanaa in the same diwan who has said this beantiful slogan Ikki Dukki Rehan NI deni Sir te Pagri rehan Nahi deni Kach KARA Kirpan , ehan nu bhejo pakistan

in the same diwan there was mnetion of speeches given Very able indian leaders like Jwahar lal nehru . patel , morargi desae , Tilak about their respectful views about sikhs as lawless *******s , if need to wipe 2 crore of sikhs from india for national integrity then it will be done , darshni deori golden doors should be rmoved and sent to temple ( jagannath temple ) and many many others which i dont even care mention

Dear MBW I just want o mention that I have no Anti Hindu feeling and quite confident that i love india more than an average indian do and consider hindus in brother hood of sikhs and Sabat da balaa spirit and so was Baba Jarnail singh abd conditions of the time and various forces made such circumstances and then reprted them in such a way that painted anti hindu pictite of baba jarnail Singh who was to straght forward speak every thing on the face of people and had he benn political minded he would have never died as political minds of the time survived till date and for any body it is not hard to say that politician surrenders , compromise , alter their demands and motives but never ever die so is true about sikh politicians they are well and alive and they did the same what I just mentioned

and like a take home message I am not here convice you that Jarnail Singh was sant or not but for sure he was great man in my prospective and much much nore spirtual being then myself and my reaseach has been unable to find in bad light even though such reaseraches are never complete whether its your or mine

And fully agree with Vijaydeep that it is not wise to highlight such aspects of various factions fo sikhs whether in past and present and we all should look forward to move ahead together for brighter future of panth

Jatinder Singh

It is a very strange message. It does not go with what the Gurus preached. There was no opression whatsoever even though it was assumed one. Politics and religion can't be mixed together. One should pray for and promote universal brotherhood by following and living the teachings of Granth Sahib. SSA Ji, VK

Dear Jatinder
Thanks for your reply. I appreciate you taking the time.
Sorry to hear that you find it mentally painful. Were you and/or your family touched by those times personally in some way?

I will continue to do some more research. At present on internet I only seem to easily find sikh sites which appear to me to rather paint only a rosy picture and partial picture. But I am reading them anyway

You said you were wondering
"...what is your intent?"
Good question.
My intent is NOT to stir up controversy, though regrettably that seems inevitable where stong views are held for andf against Jarnail Singh. It is to ask anyone reading this thread to question and possibly correct what I see as a misleading and dangerous presentation of a 'role-model' to future sikhs.

We each of us are responsible for the purity of transmission of that which we learned and which we profess to hold dear and to follow.
E.g. that which I regard as the 'core' of Sikhi is the 'teachings' and 'examples' of the Gurus.
I am trying to say that we are ALL responsible for how that is preserved and that it is passed on to the following generations as accurately as possible.

What I am talking about as the 'core' of Sikhi are things like:
1. When Guru Amar Das after being kicked off the dais at Goindwal by Datu apologising to Datu saying "I am old. My bones are hard. You may have been hurt".
That for me is an example of pure sikhism in practice.

2. "Did your God ask you to tyrannise over others?
Fie on your regard for God and religion!
Hear me, do not employ your sword
to murder the innocent, for the God on high
would for sure punish you.
Fear God therefore,
who is the Master of the Earth and the Heaven
and whose vengeances is terrible,
who fears no-one and is the protector for ever of the poor.
...Life is but for a brief few moments.
Change is the law of life.
Whoever comes here also must quit the scene.
So whatever one's strength,
one must not annoy the weak
or else one destroys one's own roots."

Guru Gobind Singh writing to Mughal Emperor Aurangzeb.

Even then the Guru wrote: "If even now you repent and come to see me...you shall not be harmed. I wish I could speak to you face to face."

Guru Gobind Singh fought to 'defend' his followers and to protect the weak. He didn't wage war to spread his own teachings nor to suppress the teachings of others.

Guru Tegh Bahadur even died in the cause of protecting the religions of others (not his own) from persecution and discrimination/oppression.

That for me is real 'religion' in action.

How is it OK then for anyone who claims to follow the gurus,
to kill their critics and enemies in the name of their religion or for any other justification?

So what if any other group disrespects OUR beliefs? That will be between them and God.
Our responsibility is our OWN conduct and behaviour and it is only for that that WE will be helf accountable. Are WE true to the ideals and example set before us by the Gurus or not?

...He was against Nirankari for very good reasons...
Maybe so. But in what way does that justify attacking them?
Jarnail said before an agitated sikh congregation Manji Sahib:
"We will not allow the Nirankari convention to be held here. We shall march to cut them to pieces."
That was recorded in the book 'Amritsar' by BBC correspondents Satish Jacob and Mark Tully.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324

You mention the twelve sikhs that were killed in the disturbance initiated by the sikh mob but not the three Nirankaris???

That whole episode for me demonstrates where 'religion' (which I understood was all about 'union' with that Divinity which ALL humanity share and of which we are ALL heirs) is used to DIVIDE and not 'unite'.

What can be said of a 'religion' practised so that it creates dissension and disagreement and kills brotherly love and mutual respect? I have always understood that the teachings of Guru Nanak and his successors was to eliminate caste and creed distinctions. "Nae ko hindu, nae mussalman". .i.e. we could say today 'no christian, no buddhist, nor jew, nor Dharamdasi, nor Nirankari, nor Nihang, nor Radhaswami, nor AryaSamaji, nor Keshdhari, Nor Sehajdhari, nor Namdhari or whatever!
God created man. Man created religions. Great men like Guru Nanak tried to lead us out of sectarian viewpoints and to awaken us to a sense of 'universal brotherhood'.

Jarnail Singh for all his great qualities of leadership and oratory and, etc., etc. was the antithesis of this.
That is why it disturbs me to see only half the picture of him being presented.
It goes against the basis of sikhi to believe that it is not only OK but laudable to persecute and even execute those who do not share the same beliefs as you, or those who criticise you, as Bhindranwalee did.

I am really astonished that you just noted this line fo his and nothing else around this topic.
("It comes to 35, not even 100. Divide fifty-five crores, then each sikh gets only 35 hindus, and not even 36th. How do you say you are weak?")
I posted only that line as it demonstrated my point. The twenty minutes on other topics does not in my opinion justify this anti-hindu, incitement-to-violence one even if of only ten seconds duration.

but for sure he was great man in my perspective and much much more spirtual being than myself and my research has been unable to find him in a bad light...
No doubt he loved his religion, ...but so did Aurangzeb.
No doubt he was a charismatic leader and great orator, but so was Hitler.
No doubt he was brave and fearless. But so was Babur. etc., etc.
That is NOT to compare him to those figures or say he was of similar type. Just to show that enumerating a persons 'good' qualities DOES NOT justify or excuse there bad ones.
We have to admit that if the worst be believed he ordered many murders. If the best be believed then he never publically (to my knowledge) spoke out against the gangs killing in his name and allowed the general public to believe they were done at his behest to enhance his power and inculcate a sense of fear in his detractors and those opposed to his movement.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324

And fully agree with Vijaydeep that it is not wise to highlight such aspects of various factions fo sikhs whether in past and present and we all should look forward to move ahead together for brighter future of panth.

Agreed also. But maybe the remedy would be that a post lauding Jarnail Singh as as Sant, Shaheed and epitome of Gurus sikhs should be taken down. Then this kind of controversial thread would not occur. :-(

Best wishes

MBW

Gurfateh

Dear MBW ji,

Our Panth has history that our Tenth Master Burnt alive the Masands for going against the teneasts of Gurmat yet talking about Sikhi ie hypocrcy.

Banda singh Bahdur was defeated as he also wanted to be living Guru but Tat Khalsa helped Mughals to defeat him.

In the case of fake Nirnakaris they at one time used the name refroming Sikh order but at other time kept on hurting the sentiments of Sikhs and all calls for debate were shunned not only they shunned the calls but insted further used the poropganda to blemish Guru Granth Sahib.

initialy peacefull prtests for that lead to further offenses from them and many orthodox(traditionals) Sikhs have to pay the price.

Our Guru clearly tells us to use sword when all other means fail.(JafferNammah).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324

In fact there were mnay Hindus who oppse Radhswamis or Nirnkairs who are personality based cults and divide hindus while Guru Panth can unite them.

Das request you to visit Chowk Mehta for more details about policy towrads Hindus in Damdami Taksal as one of thier Mahapurush had name Fateh Chand.

Only problem over there was that since long as it became Arya Samaj wants to eliminate us by hook or by crook.That they wants for Hindus also.Past they supported Udasi Mahants this time Nirnakaris via Punajb Kesri.

when they found them s elves weak they made this matter Hindus verse Sikh.Aray Samaj has racial feeling of pro Brahmin while nirnakris(fake) are preo Khatirs.

They oppose egaltarian AKJ or Damdami Taksal or Shri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Guru Panth JI.Aray Samajis look more like Hindus and have family realtions with some of thems and with help of disgrunteled people did kidnapped many hindu girld balming to to Sikhs which this so called Terroist Sant rescued by the help of Punjab Police.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324

There were mnay people in congress and Govt Sikhs and non Sikhs or Non Punjabis also who supported Sant Ji.

Present CM is not an exception.

With all due respect veer ji, i know i may be going a bit off topic with this post of mine but i would like to point out a few comments made which i was quite suprised to read.

Gurmat is a philosophy, a sidhaant, which was shown to us by the gurus. No guru forced anyone to follow this gurmat philosophy. If anyone chose to follow gurmat they did so voluntarily because they came to understand it and appreciate embodiment of Truth contained within. There is no tenent in Gurmat which teaches one to hurt or kill someone simply because they disagree with you. The only time any form of violence is justified by gurmat is to defend onself or somebody else against physical harm/death. Simply because one chooses to diasgree with you, or not follow your suggestions/advice is not enuff reason to condone violence.

With regards to the above reference to the masands, i am curiuos as to exactly what tenants of gurmat the masands were going against which warranted their burning. I am fuly aware that the masands, being the nominated sewadaars to look after the gurdwaras, over time forgot about their original purpose and instead became engrossed in attainment of wealth and power. This lead a very hypocritical lifestyle of outer dispaly of religsosity while complimented with an inner impurity laced in greed, lies and treacheries (not unlike most gurdwara and dera managements today). But this in itself is no reason to have justified their alleged burning, and that too ordered by the guru, UNLESS the masands actively engaged in physical harm unto the general population. You may probably have more familiarity and knowledge of the stories, so if this in fact was true i would like to know exactly what they did.

One of the saddest marks on sikh history is how a person as loyal, devoted, and unconditionaly committed to the path of Sikhi as Banda Singh Bahadur, has been relegated to a mere, lowly, self-centered, power hungry fanatic. Guru Gobind Singh was not so short sighted or careless to have bestowed such a great responsiblity and trust on the shoulders of a man who inside had the potential to later waver from his faith and commit acts of disloyalty and blasphemy.

Banda Singh was not an ordinary average joe off the street. Even before having met GUru Gobind Singh, Banda Singh had always been a highly intellectual being with thrist for knowledge and truth. Granted that earlier he was never succesful in finding the truth and was led astray and got caught up in mindless rituals, rites and cults of the time (much like Bhai Lehna was earlier in his life), however, after being in the company of GUru Gobind Singh, he came to realize the message of truth thru the Guru.

(the example of bhai lehna is merely to highlight that while both were engrossed in mindless rituals earlier in their life, they both did have an inner yearning and thirst for knowledge of truth. And this thirst was only satisfied after each came into the company of the Guru and was blessed by their teachings. Obvsiously Banda Singh was not a guru, and can never be givne the same status of one, and nor is it my intention)

Anyways, the point being, that Banda Singh attained the gyaan, thru the logic based teachings of the Guru and became a selfless devotee of the Guru just as the other great Sikhs of the era, e.g. Bhai Mani SIngh, Baba Deep Singh. He was a man wiling to undergo the most gruesome of tortures and death without flinching or comromsing even the tiniest part of his faith. All the tales of how he became corrupted by power and wished to establish himself as the leader, or next 'guru' are nothing more than false propaganda perpetuated by those who feel threatened by the message of truth embodied in the teachings of Sikhi.

How could a man who inked nothing but praise of Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh on the coins be charged with being corrupted with greed and ego?

How could a man who watched hundreds of his brothers tortured and killed before him, who had his own four year old son murdered and his heart forcibly stuffed into his mouth, and who was later himself tortured to death in a most painful manner be questioned on his loyalty and devotion to the guru?

Banda Singh Bahadur was the personification of a true sikh, just like the countless thousands of other Singhs who lived during that time. TO turn such an inspiring virtuous man, of the noblest of character into a traitor of the Khalsa Panth who was more concerned with his own status then the message of Guru Nanak would be one of the gravest unforgivable errors we as SIkhs could make today.

Gurfateh
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5324

Das can say that Guru aponited Banda for killing wrong person Wazeer Khan which Banda did and that all was his role.further all he did was by his own self.(Refer Bhangus Panth Prakash).
Guru anyway did give chance to bad people to reform but they rathr ditched him,that was not the fault of Guru like Gangu Brahmin or say Gurra Khan who stabed Guru by ditching.

coming to Masands,It was there that they used mony of worshipper for personal use and in bad deeds.Very purpose of our philososhy was defeated as it was done in our name.

How exactly did Banda Singh Bahadur "ditch" the guru? By having his son butchered before his very eyes? By being tortured to death himself because he was a Sikh?

And how exactly did the masands use the money of the sangat which warranted them being burned to death?

There are countless gurdwara committee members, presidents, staff etc both in north america and india who use the money from the sangat (out of the golak) for wrongful purposes, ranging from unbecoming behaviour such as drinking, partying to buying things for personal needs like cars, houses etc. They all collect money in the name of the guru but are any of their actions reasons to justify us to go out and kill them? I am not saying that masand were innocent people, i would just like to know what exactly they did which warranted them being burned alive (if that was the case).