Professor Sarbjit Singh Dhunda

Ishna ji

This is not Gurbani.
The English translation is not very good. The above translation, especially the second line is way off. I hope sangat does not have any doubts regarding Dohra. One day Khalsa will have Raaj (kingdom) in this world, this is bachan from Guru Gobind Singh ji.
The Dohra are actually words direct from Guru Gobind Singh ji, they have been preserved in bhai Prahlad Singh ji's rehitnama, bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's Tankhah Nama and by Giani Gian Singh's, Panth Parkash.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/36858-professor-sarbjit-singh-dhunda.html
The pavittar bachan to accept Guru Granth Sahib as our Guru is in the Dohra. If we question the Dohra then we are questioning the foundation of Sikhi - shabad Guru, sri Guru Granth Sahib being our Guru. I believe Guru Gobind Singh uttered the Dohra in their final days at Hazoor Sahib when passing Gurgaddi to Guru Granth Sahib ji. I believe it was the Namdhari's who first questioned the Dohra, for obvious reasons.
Lets not get off topic, this thread is about authenticity sri Jaap Sahib and not Dohra (I am not aware of any doubts regarding Dohra, it is accepted and recited by Sikh Panth)..
The point is that we have material outside of Gurbani that can be utilized and is utilized.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36858


Rabb Rakhe

 
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Sir,
I didn't mean any offence by my post. The thing I wanted to highlight was that we don't have any credible reference to support the Jaap Sahib as an authentic Bani, let alone its being Guru's own composition. All we have are Rehatnamas or Bhai Nand Lal's Bani. I don't think we would be able to defend it when in discussion with a third party.
Even the Lag-matras of Jaap Sahib are different in different Gutkas, the fact is even acknowledged by the SGPC. How can we authenticate a Bani sans a set original draft??
There are many who try to advocate the Dasam Granth citing the Jaap Sahib and Chaupaee.
And about the Chaupaee, there are many Chaupaees in the Dasam, are there any pre-SRM (I mean the time before the SRM was drafted) references for the Chaupaee to be recited as the Nitnem??
Any references or leads could prove very useful in this regard.

Many thanks. It makes a difference. As Gyani ji is a giani, his words carry weight. And I would like all to be clear as to what he is actually endorsing and the interpretations of others.

Wrong on this point.


This thread is about the kathas of Professor Sarbjit Singh. It is not about Jap Sahib, though the topic is related and cannot escape being mentioned and discussed. Let us discuss the professor in the main. Thanks.

Aristotle ji

I too hope I have not offended you in my post, apologies if I have.

"And about the Chaupaee, there are many Chaupaees in the Dasam, are there any pre-SRM (I mean the time before the SRM was drafted) references for the Chaupaee to be recited as the Nitnem??Any references or leads could prove very useful in this regard.2

Choupai sahib was definitely recited before SRM. I will try to get references. SRM would not just have introduced these banis into Amrit Sanchar and Nitnem if they were not already being recited. Gurmukhs and SRM committee members such as bhai Vir Singh, Kahn Singh Nabha, Akali Kaur Singh etc all recited sri Choupai Sahib and sri Jaap Sahib.

As for which Choupai Sahib to recite , we should recite the panthic version in SRM:
"Meditating on Nam (Divine Substance) and Scriptures
Article IV
ii) The Benti Chaupai of the tenth Guru (beginning "hamri karo hath dai rachha" and ending with "dusht dokh te leho bachai"

As for Jaap Sahib:

"Even the Lag-matras of Jaap Sahib are different in different Gutkas, the fact is even acknowledged by the SGPC."
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36858

This is not a valid argument. Differences in lag-matra are not limited to Jaap Sahib. Their are differences in lag-matra in different saroops of Guru Granth Sahib. The fault lies with the writer of the saroop and not Guru Sahib. The lag-matra were standardised by comparing puratan (old) granths of Guru Granth Sahib, however their are still faults that need urgent rectification. Just because of a few differences in lag-matra we cannot just dismiss Jaap Sahib otherwise we can use same argument for our current Guru.

"How can we authenticate a Bani sans a set original draft??"

We do not even have the original Damdami Saroop (Gurgaddi was given to this saroop at Hazur Sahib by Guru Gobind Singh) in our possesion. Just because we do not have the original granth in our possession this does not mean we dismiss the whole granth. The best method is to collect as many old saroops as possible and compare the bani between them as was done by SGPC for Guru Granth Sahib ji. Joginder Singh Talwara of Akhand Kirtani Jatha spent many years doing research but SGPC did not listen to him.

"The thing I wanted to highlight was that we don't have any credible reference to support the Jaap Sahib as an authentic Bani, let alone its being Guru's own composition. All we have are Rehatnamas or Bhai Nand Lal's Bani. I don't think we would be able to defend it when in discussion with a third party."

For me sources from bhai Nand Lal Singh ji bani is a good credible source. SRM comittee, SRM maryada, AKJ, Taksal, kathavachaks like Pinderpal Singh, Sant Singh Maskeen......................the list goes on and on. The majority of the panth supports this bani whether they be from a taksal, jatha and non-affilliated Gursikhs like Pinderpal Singh ji and Prof Sahib Singh ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36858

You ask for 'credible reference'. What is credible reference? Bhai Nand Lal Singh ji's bani can even be recited in kirtan as per SRM. Then their are rehitname, then we can look into jeevans (lives) of various Gursikhs. If this is not enough I dont know what is.

SPN admin, it was you that actually posted the video on Jaap Sahib, otherwise I would not have discussed sri Jaap Sahib. This will be my last post on sri Jaap Sahib, no need to delete.

Rabb Rakhe

I will be moving several posts to a new thread unless we return to the Professor as the main topic. Please make connections for readers. Otherwise a new thread will be needed.

A MUST WATCH VIDEO:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36858

Bhai sarabjit singh dhunda 30 july 2011 part 2 of 5

Link: http://youtu.be/85wbUt3xHVM

This article has been merged with an existing thread. Thanks, spnadmin

So true.