The Destiny/Free Will Paradox

This is more of a general question that doesn't just pertain to Sikhism but many other religions like Christianity and Islam. Matter of fact, I usually use the example with western religions who have the idea of Heaven and Hell but I would like to hear an answer from an Eastern perspective.

A logical fallacy is a paradox or two seemingly contradictory ideas.

Now here we go.

The dictionary defines god as: The supernatural being conceived as the perfect and omnipotent and omniscient originator and ruler of the universe.

Although that is just a dictionary definition, for all extensive purposes, I believe the definition is sufficiently in line with a Sikh's perspective of God.

The key idea is that, God is both Perfect and Omniscient. From a religious point of view you cannot argue otherwise. Now, if god is perfect, then a lot of people like to believe god has a plan. Simply put, God knows what everyone is doing before they do it and everyone does everything according to God's plan. To think otherwise would be religiously incorrect. People also like to believe the God has bestowed upon them a mind enough for them to be able to think on their own accord or for them to have the "free will" of action and thought in order to choose their own path (for better or for worse). However, I feel that the two ideas cannot co-exist. If god has a plan, or even if god just knows what you're going to do before u do it, then how do u have free will? The choice becomes an illusion because the decision you make is the decision that god has foreseen and planned, to do otherwise would suggest God is imperfect. Assuming you don't have free will and God has a plan, then we can agree that some people are born to lead a good life and others a bad life it would be unfair for god to punish those who live a bad life and have no capacity to change on their own accord because as it appears to god, they are just following his all-mighty perfect plan.

Therefore, the only 2 logical conclusions I can infer are:
1) You have free will but God is neither perfect or omniscient because true free will suggests you make your decisions on your own accord and God has no way of knowing what your doing. And we can truly be held responsible for our actions when we pass away.
2)You don't have free will and God is both perfect and omniscient but we are ultimately living trivial lives pre-destined to set track on the good or bad paths and be punished for any wrong doings that we have ultimately no control in preventing. We're like actors in a movie set to play a part and follow the script.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/23331-the-destiny-free-will-paradox.html

If anyone can find a fallacy in my logic :p then I am more then pleased to discuss it further. For now, all I want to hear is a explanation as to how free will and destiny can co-exist in relegion

Edit: I asked a muslim friend of mines this question a long time ago and the response after a few months of hard thinking was that God has the ability to predetermine and his power is absolute but he has also given you a limited amount of free will, specially in the area of belief/dis-belief and that god neither wants you to or condones any negative actions. < The answer didnt satisfy me because, im asking "How" is this possible and she was simply telling me "It is" by suggesting that god is able to give you free will and still remain all perfect with the ability to pre determine. Thats kinda like asking "How does a plane fly" and the pilot telling me "It just does." Anyways, as a side note, another popular phrasing of the same paradox was given by Homer Simpson when he told Flanders "Can God make a burrito so hot that even he himself cannot eat it" i just thought id put that up for fun, dunt bother answering to homer simpson's quote :P i know god does not eat burritos. :p

 
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Caspian ji

Ahah! How do we know that God does not eat burritos? One problem that we always have when seeking to unravel the question of Destiny and Free Will is that we try to think God's thoughts. Great thread with great introduction.

I don't believe God punishes anyone. He doesn't need to. Like you said he is the "doer" of everything.

Sikhism believe that Lord is the doer of everything. It starts right from Mool Mantar ('Karta Purkh'), 1st pauri ('Hukam'), 2nd pauri (more about 'Hukam') and it goes on. We, mortals do not have any free will.
Lord is the 'Karta Purkh'. He is the cause of causes.
Some sikhs can argue we have free will. But no, our free will is just our illusion. If we can remove this illusion, only then we can overcome biggest obstacle to our Lord, that is our ego.

Gurbani has number of Shabads confirming absolute power of His 'Hukam'. Initial Pauris of Japji states full control of His 'Hukam' over the events surrounding us. Later Pauris of Japji with word 'Jor' makes it more clear.
Out of many Shabads I will post one from Fifth Master on Panna 1081.
ਮਾਰੂ ਸੋਲਹੇ ਮਹਲਾ ੫
Maaroo, Solhas, Fifth Mehl:

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥
One Universal Creator God. By The Grace Of The True Guru:

ਤੂ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਹਉ ਸੇਵਕੁ ਕੀਤਾ ॥
You are my Lord and Master; You have made me Your servant.

ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਦੀਤਾ ॥
My soul and body are all gifts from You.

ਕਰਨ ਕਰਾਵਨ ਸਭੁ ਤੂਹੈ ਤੂਹੈ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਅਸਾੜਾ ॥੧॥
You are the Creator, the Cause of causes; nothing belongs to me. ||1||

ਤੁਮਹਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਤਾ ਜਗ ਮਹਿ ਆਏ ॥
When You sent me, I came into the world.

ਜੋ ਤੁਧੁ ਭਾਣਾ ਸੇ ਕਰਮ ਕਮਾਏ ॥
Whatever is pleasing to Your Will, I do.

ਤੁਝ ਤੇ ਬਾਹਰਿ ਕਿਛੂ ਨ ਹੋਆ ਤਾ ਭੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਾੜਾ ॥੨॥
Without You, nothing is done, so I am not anxious at all. ||2||

ਊਹਾ ਹੁਕਮੁ ਤੁਮਾਰਾ ਸੁਣੀਐ ॥
In the world hereafter, the Hukam of Your Command is heard.

ਈਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਣੀਐ ॥
In this world, I chant Your Praises, Lord.

ਆਪੇ ਲੇਖ ਅਲੇਖੈ ਆਪੇ ਤੁਮ ਸਿਉ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਝਾੜਾ ॥੩॥
You Yourself write the account, and You Yourself erase it; no one can argue with You. ||3||

ਤੂ ਪਿਤਾ ਸਭਿ ਬਾਰਿਕ ਥਾਰੇ ॥
You are our father; we are all Your children.

ਜਿਉ ਖੇਲਾਵਹਿ ਤਿਉ ਖੇਲਣਹਾਰੇ ॥
We play as You cause us to play.

ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥
The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||

ਇਕਿ ਬੈਸਾਇ ਰਖੇ ਗ੍ਰਿਹ ਅੰਤਰਿ ॥
Some remain seated within their homes.

ਇਕਿ ਪਠਾਏ ਦੇਸ ਦਿਸੰਤਰਿ ॥
Some wander across the country and through foreign lands.

ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਘਾਸੁ ਇਕ ਹੀ ਕਉ ਰਾਜਾ ਇਨ ਮਹਿ ਕਹੀਐ ਕਿਆ ਕੂੜਾ ॥੫॥
Some are grass-cutters, and some are kings. Who among these can be called false? ||5||

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਨਰਕਾ ॥
Who is liberated, and who will land in hell?

ਕਵਨੁ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਭਗਤਾ ॥
Who is worldly, and who is a devotee?

ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਦਾਨਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਸੁ ਹੋਛਾ ਕਵਨ ਸੁ ਸੁਰਤਾ ਕਵਨੁ ਜੜਾ ॥੬॥
Who is wise, and who is shallow? Who is aware, and who is ignorant? ||6||

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਮੁਕਤੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਨਰਕਾ ॥
By the Hukam of the Lord's Command, one is liberated, and by His Hukam, one falls into hell.

ਹੁਕਮਿ ਸੈਸਾਰੀ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਭਗਤਾ ॥
By His Hukam, one is worldly, and by His Hukam, one is a devotee.

ਹੁਕਮੇ ਹੋਛਾ ਹੁਕਮੇ ਦਾਨਾ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਹੀ ਅਵਰੁ ਧੜਾ ॥੭॥
By His Hukam, one is shallow, and by His Hukam, one is wise. There is no other side except His. ||7||

ਸਾਗਰੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਅਤਿ ਤੁਮ ਭਾਰਾ ॥
You made the ocean vast and huge.

ਇਕਿ ਖੜੇ ਰਸਾਤਲਿ ਕਰਿ ਮਨਮੁਖ ਗਾਵਾਰਾ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
You made some into foolish self-willed manmukhs, and dragged them into hell.

ਇਕਨਾ ਪਾਰਿ ਲੰਘਾਵਹਿ ਆਪੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰੁ ਜਿਨ ਕਾ ਸਚੁ ਬੇੜਾ ॥੮॥
Some are carried across, in the ship of Truth of the True Guru. ||8||

ਕਉਤਕੁ ਕਾਲੁ ਇਹੁ ਹੁਕਮਿ ਪਠਾਇਆ ॥
You issue Your Command for this amazing thing, death.

ਜੀਅ ਜੰਤ ਓਪਾਇ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
You create all beings and creatures, and absorb them back into Yourself.

ਵੇਖੈ ਵਿਗਸੈ ਸਭਿ ਰੰਗ ਮਾਣੇ ਰਚਨੁ ਕੀਨਾ ਇਕੁ ਆਖਾੜਾ ॥੯॥
You gaze in delight upon the one arena of the world, and enjoy all the pleasures. ||9||

ਵਡਾ ਸਾਹਿਬੁ ਵਡੀ ਨਾਈ ॥
Great is the Lord and Master, and Great is His Name.

ਵਡ ਦਾਤਾਰੁ ਵਡੀ ਜਿਸੁ ਜਾਈ ॥
He is the Great Giver; Great is His place.

ਅਗਮ ਅਗੋਚਰੁ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਅਤੋਲਾ ਹੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕਿਛੁ ਆਹਾੜਾ ॥੧੦॥
He is inaccessible and unfathomable, infinite and unweighable. He cannot be measured. ||10||

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਜਾਣੈ ਦੂਜਾ ॥
No one else knows His value.

ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਪੂਜਾ ॥
Only You Yourself, O Immaculate Lord, are equal to Yourself.

ਆਪਿ ਸੁ ਗਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਧਿਆਨੀ ਆਪਿ ਸਤਵੰਤਾ ਅਤਿ ਗਾੜਾ ॥੧੧॥
You Yourself are the spiritual teacher, You Yourself are the One who meditates. You Yourself are the great and immense Being of Truth. ||11||

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਗੁਪਤੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
For so many days, You remained invisible.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਸੁੰਨਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥
For so many days, You were absorbed in silent absorption.

ਕੇਤੜਿਆ ਦਿਨ ਧੁੰਧੂਕਾਰਾ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਤਾ ਪਰਗਟੜਾ ॥੧੨॥
For so many days, there was only pitch darkness, and then the Creator revealed Himself. ||12||

ਆਪੇ ਸਕਤੀ ਸਬਲੁ ਕਹਾਇਆ ॥
You Yourself are called the God of Supreme Power.

ਆਪੇ ਸੂਰਾ ਅਮਰੁ ਚਲਾਇਆ ॥
You Yourself are the hero, exerting Your regal power.

ਆਪੇ ਸਿਵ ਵਰਤਾਈਅਨੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਸੀਤਲੁ ਠਾਰੁ ਗੜਾ ॥੧੩॥
You Yourself spread peace within; You are cool and icy calm. ||13||

ਜਿਸਹਿ ਨਿਵਾਜੇ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਾਜੇ ॥
One whom You bless and make Gurmukh -

ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਤਿਸੁ ਅਨਹਦ ਵਾਜੇ ॥
the Naam abides within him, and the unstruck sound current vibrates for him.

ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਸੁਖੁ ਤਿਸ ਹੀ ਠਕੁਰਾਈ ਤਿਸਹਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਜਮੁ ਨੇੜਾ ॥੧੪॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
He is peaceful, and he is the master of all; the Messenger of Death does not even approach him. ||14||

ਕੀਮਤਿ ਕਾਗਦ ਕਹੀ ਨ ਜਾਈ ॥
His value cannot be described on paper.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇਅੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥
Says Nanak, the Lord of the world is infinite.

ਆਦਿ ਮਧਿ ਅੰਤਿ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਈ ਹਾਥਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਕੈ ਨੇਬੇੜਾ ॥੧੫॥
In the beginning, in the middle and in the end, God exists. Judgement is in His Hands alone. ||15||

ਤਿਸਹਿ ਸਰੀਕੁ ਨਾਹੀ ਰੇ ਕੋਈ ॥
No one is equal to Him.

ਕਿਸ ਹੀ ਬੁਤੈ ਜਬਾਬੁ ਨ ਹੋਈ ॥
No one can stand up against Him by any means.

ਨਾਨਕ ਕਾ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਚੋਜ ਖੜਾ ॥
Nanak's God is Himself all-in-all. He creates and stages and watches His wondrous plays. ||

Note: Some words 'hell', 'jam' etc. are mentioned just as metaphors. It is a totally different subject. Just try to understand what Master is saying here.

A shabad from Third Master on panna 1417.
ਮਾਇਆਮੋਹੁਦੁਖੁਸਾਗਰੁਹੈਬਿਖੁਦੁਤਰੁਤਰਿਆਨਜਾਇ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
Emotional attachment to Maya is a treacherous ocean of pain and poison, which cannot be crossed.


ਮੇਰਾਮੇਰਾਕਰਦੇਪਚਿਮੁਏਹਉਮੈਕਰਤਵਿਹਾਇ॥
Screaming, "Mine, mine!", they rot and die; they pass their lives in egotism.


ਮਨਮੁਖਾਉਰਵਾਰੁਨਪਾਰੁਹੈਅਧਵਿਚਿਰਹੇਲਪਟਾਇ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
The self-willed manmukhs are in limbo, neither on this side, nor the other; they are stuck in the middle.


ਜੋਧੁਰਿਲਿਖਿਆਸੁਕਮਾਵਣਾਕਰਣਾਕਛੂਨਜਾਇ॥
They act as they are pre-destined; they cannot do anything else.


ਗੁਰਮਤੀਗਿਆਨੁਰਤਨੁਮਨਿਵਸੈਸਭੁਦੇਖਿਆਬ੍ਰਹਮੁਸੁਭਾਇ॥
Following the Guru's Teachings, the jewel of spiritual wisdom abides in the mind, and then God is easily seen in all.


ਨਾਨਕਸਤਿਗੁਰਿਬੋਹਿਥੈਵਡਭਾਗੀਚੜੈਤੇਭਉਜਲਿਪਾਰਿਲੰਘਾਇ॥੩੪॥
O Nanak, the very fortunate ones embark on the Boat of the True Guru; they are carried across the terrifying world-ocean. ||34||

Guru Nanak on panna 475.


ਪਉੜੀ ॥
Pauree:


ਵਡੇ ਕੀਆ ਵਡਿਆਈਆ ਕਿਛੁ ਕਹਣਾ ਕਹਣੁ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
The description of the greatness of the Great Lord cannot be described.


ਸੋ ਕਰਤਾ ਕਾਦਰ ਕਰੀਮੁ ਦੇ ਜੀਆ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਸੰਬਾਹਿ ॥
He is the Creator, all-powerful and benevolent; He gives sustenance to all beings.


ਸਾਈ ਕਾਰ ਕਮਾਵਣੀ ਧੁਰਿ ਛੋਡੀ ਤਿੰਨੈ ਪਾਇ ॥
The mortal does that work, which has been pre-destined from the very beginning.


ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੀ ਬਾਹਰੀ ਹੋਰ ਦੂਜੀ ਨਾਹੀ ਜਾਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
O Nanak, except for the One Lord, there is no other place at all.


ਸੋ ਕਰੇ ਜਿ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਜਾਇ ॥੨੪॥੧॥ ਸੁਧੁ
He does whatever He wills. ||24||1|| Sudh||

Here are couple of questions asked by curious or doubtful minds.
1. Would that mean we don't need any effort on our part? Would it make us irresponsible?
2. Does that mean Lord made us do bad deeds? Then why we have to go through pain because of our actions which God caused us to do?
Orange colored are the questions and blue colored are the answers from Gurbani.

1. Would that mean we don't need any effort on our part?

Doing effort is an integral part of Sikhism. Even though as a Sikh, we should always keep in mind that Lord is playing this whole game, but it should not prevent us from doing effort on our part.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
Guru Nanak in Pauri 36 of Japji talks about One of the spiritual stages on our way to Lord. It is called Sarm Khand. 'Sarm' here means effort. There are other many examples from Gurbani where Guru Sahib told us to do effort. But this effort can only be done within His Hukam.

ਸਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਰੂਪੁ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਘਾੜਤਿ ਘੜੀਐ ਬਹੁਤੁ ਅਨੂਪੁ ॥
Beauty is the language of the realm of spiritual effort. There, an extremely incomparable make, is made.

ਤਾ ਕੀਆ ਗਲਾ ਕਥੀਆ ਨਾ ਜਾਹਿ ॥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਕਹੈ ਪਿਛੈ ਪਛੁਤਾਇ ॥
The proceedings of that place can not be described. If any one endeavors to describe, he shall afterwards repent.

ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਤਿ ਮਤਿ ਮਨਿ ਬੁਧਿ ॥ ਤਿਥੈ ਘੜੀਐ ਸੁਰਾ ਸਿਧਾ ਕੀ ਸੁਧਿ ॥੩੬॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
There inner consciousness, intellect, soul and understand are moulded afresh. There the genius of the pious persons and men of miracles is moulded a new.

2. Does that mean Lord made us do bad deeds? Then why we have to go through pain because of our actions which God caused us to do?

What is good and bad?

At a stage, gurmukh will realize that there is no difference between Good and Bad.
A tuk from one of shabads (Fifth Mahl) I posted earlier.
ਉਝੜ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਸਭੁ ਤੁਮ ਹੀ ਕੀਨਾ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਹੀ ਕੋ ਵੇਪਾੜਾ ॥੪॥
The wilderness and the path are all made by You. No one can take the wrong path. ||4||

Guru Nanak Dev on panna 229.
ਸਭੁ ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਆਪੇ ਭਰਮਾਇਆ ॥
He Himself is All-pervading; He Himself misleads the people.
ਗੁਰ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਤੇ ਬੂਝੀਐ ਸਭੁ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੯॥੨॥੧੮॥
By Guru's Grace, one comes to understand, that God is contained in all.

why are we afraid of pain and suffering?

ਮਃ ੧ ॥
First Mehl:
ਨਾਨਕ ਬੋਲਣੁ ਝਖਣਾ ਦੁਖ ਛਡਿ ਮੰਗੀਅਹਿ ਸੁਖ ॥
O Nanak, it is absurd to ask to be spared from pain by begging for comfort.
ਸੁਖੁ ਦੁਖੁ ਦੁਇ ਦਰਿ ਕਪੜੇ ਪਹਿਰਹਿ ਜਾਇ ਮਨੁਖ ॥
Pleasure and pain are the two garments given, to be worn in the Court of the Lord.
ਜਿਥੈ ਬੋਲਣਿ ਹਾਰੀਐ ਤਿਥੈ ਚੰਗੀ ਚੁਪ ॥੨॥
Where you are bound to lose by speaking, there, you ought to remain silent. ||2||

I think you are reading this better than I did. The conversations went off in another direction. So I left it alone. But yes I will merge these. Thanks for shedding some light.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23331

Two threads have been merged. Logical Fallacy Between Free Will and Destiny has been merged with this thread The Destiny/Free Will Paradox because of their similarity. Thank you.