Banda Bahadur = Guru Gobind Singh?

pk70 · #19 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 10:10 AM

sinister ji, just last but not least !
Try a revolution against an established inhuman practices, I shall see you how often you will be able to preach a religion and support a revolution at the same time; if you do, it will be very hard to accept you one of common humans. No wonder three centuries were not even enough. Avalanche of cover up by biased historians couldn't hide the truth, still so called followers breath the same punk smell Sikh Gurus asked not to do. I take it a measure of how big was the revolution at least !

dalsingh · #20 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 12:59 PM

To the original poster. I have never heard anyone saying Banda Singh may have been Dasmesh Pita before.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/22605-banda-bahadur-guru-gobind-singh.html

According to Moghul records they did share physical similarities but are people suggesting that Guru ji married again and the child slaughtered at Delhi was a sahibzada!

Also as pointed out before, Rattan Singh Bhangu claims that Banda introduced changes (i.e. the Khalsa war cry from Jo Bole So Nihal...Sat Siri Akal to Fateh Darshan, the uniform colour from blue to red and miscellaneous dietary habits.) Why would Guru ji do this? Plus, according to this source there was some fracas between Bandai Sikhs and the Tat Khalsa. Remember many Sikhs who were close associates with Dasmesh Pita were still around under Banda Singh. If they were one and the same - we would know.

vijaydeep Singh · #21 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 16:56 PM

Gurfateh

In Bhangu's book Banda is not liked,if we visit sarbloh.info,this faction of Nihungs also do not like Banda.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605

Anyway manistram of Nihungs and Sikhs or Hajur Sahib call him Banda Singh Bahadur only and Gurudwara of him is located at lohgarh(near Jagadhari) and is manged by Budhadal.

Regarding Banda Singh's theory,we still have sect of Bandai Khalsa and is popular with Bairagis.Their headquarter is in Rohtak Haryana(they call themselve Banda Singh Bahadur Sikh Samprdaya).They say that as Banda became Son of Guru and his family linage still goes on.The present head of the sect,who claims from the Banda's family has name "Teja Singh Sodi" .Well during baptism in Nihungs we are told that from this day all of us will have sodi Gotra.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605

So as a Khalsa Banda was roop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.Else his followers also consider him separate from the Tenth Master.

dalsingh · #22 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 17:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vijaydeep Singh

Regarding Banda Singh's theory,we still have sect of Bandai Khalsa and is popular with Bairagis.Their headquarter is in Rohtak Haryana(they call themselve Banda Singh Bahadur Sikh Samprdaya).They say that as Banda became Son of Guru and his family linage still goes on.The present head of the sect,who claims from the Banda's family has name "Teja Singh Sodi" .Well during baptism in Nihungs we are told that from this day all of us will have sodi Gotra.

This makes no sense as his son died in Delhi by all counts. So how could anyone be his blood descendant then?

Quote:

So as a Khalsa Banda was roop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.Else his followers also consider him separate from the Tenth Master

I don't understand this bit - can you clarify?

Look we also have to factor in people claiming all sorts of things for their own motives.

Why would someone want to, all of a sudden, bring this issue up? Has it any credible basis or is it just imaginative thinking?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #23 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 17:30 PM

Sikh Chela ji and others...

IMHO....Guru Ji was not living in a vacuum...right from His birth at Patna...people like Bhikhan Shah came to visit...and at the battle of bhangannee Pir Budhu Shah and his 700 mureeds fought on Guru Jis side..so there were lots and lots of mughals and muslims who saw Guru ji face to face...from very very close..and would know Him anywhere...leaving aside Sikhs and Hindus who also knew what Guru ji looked like....Guru Ji fought on the battlefront and came Face to Face with many of the greatest Generals of the Mughals....the brother in law of the Pir of Sadhaura was one of them sent from DELHI...so if Guru ji was not well recognised ??? how would he know who Guru Ji was ??/
2. Gurus were "humans"... who showed us the way to "conquer" human traits..like anger..sadness..jealousy etc etc etc BY PERSONAL EXAMPLE. See How Guru Arjun ji sits on the sizzling hot plate and declares..Dosh na kahoon dehoh//Tera Bhanna MEETHA laggeh....His "human body" was definitley BURNING just as ours would..BUT NOT his "mind" ( as would yours and mine..because we as humans havent yet conquered anger/jealousy/saddnes..etc etc ).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605
3. Guru Ji did have a "look-alike"....this man (SANT SINGH) was dressed up in Guru Jis clothes, kalgi etc and left to defend the Garhhee of Chamkaur when Guru Ji was ordered by the Guru Khalsa panth in the form of the Panj Piyaras to leave the garrhee. Sant Singh did die a MARTYRs death when the mughals attacked in full force later on..his body was initially thought to be Guru Ji's body...BUT the TRUTH SOON came OUT....so even the "ordinary mughals" also KNEW very well who Guru gobind Singh ji was !!!...other wise there was no need for the Ghani brothers to carry Him as UCHH da PIR through the mughal lines !!! what more proof is needed ?? In my mind this theory falls flat...flatter than the flattest pancake ...ever.

3. I do have an issue with "disappearing" bodies....the Body of Guru nanak ji Sahib...the body of Guru Arjun ji Sahib and finally the body of Guru Gobind Singh Ji ??? The Gurus didnt attach ANY SIGNIFICANCE to their own bodies.."DEH" is NOT IMPORTANT !! what happend after their PHYSICAL DEATH is ???? What happend BEFORE that is IMPORTANT..they passed on the GURGADHEE to the Successor GURU...and ther is NO DOUBT about this FACT in any Guru's history.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605

vijaydeep Singh · #24 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 18:22 PM

Gurfateh

Clarification.

1. As per Bhangu's book Banda survived the brutal assualt in Delhi and went to Jammu and married and from there the decnt started.Das thinks that he might not have surivived but could have had another wife in jammu.
2."So as a Khalsa Banda was roop of Guru Gobind Singh Ji.Else his followers also consider him separate from the Tenth Master "
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605

As per Sarbloh Granth Sahib Ji.A Khalsa is special form(Roop hai Khas) of Tenth Master.So any true Sikh is same as Tenth Master(there is another Sakhi to see the mirrior das heard from missionary Jagjeet Singh Ji of Navan Shahar).And followers of Banda Singh Bahadur do not think that Tenth Master and Banda were one.For them both were separate personalities..Das just wanted to convey this.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #25 (**permalink**) 10-Aug-2008, 19:49 PM

Here is something i came across today...

Saga of Banda Singh Bahadur:
Triumph at Chapan-Chiri
Dr. Sukhdial Singh*
Untitled Document

* Department of Punjab Historical Studies, Punjabi University, Patiala. 147002. Punjab.

Though there are so many battle-grounds in the Punjab where decisive battles were fought, such as Chamkaur Sahib, Khidrana, Gurdas Nangal, Mudki, Sabraon, Ferozeshah and Baddowa!, but these battle-grounds remind us only of our set-back and defeat. The battle ground of Chapar-Chiri is the only battle-ground where the Khalsa, under the leadership of Banda Singh Bahadur, fought a pitched battle with the Mughal forces. This was the first battle of its kind in the history of the Sikhs, where they won and defeated the Mughals in clear terms. The establishment of first Sikh rule, and the end of the Mughal rule was the result of this war.
Chapar-Chiri is the local pronunciation of Chappar-Jhiri which means the pond with cluster of trees (small forest). The area of Chapar-Chiri villages was a grove with so many ponds. That is why this area was called as Chhapar-Jhiri. Though the battle fought at this area was on a single day but, in :reality, it was a war which began with the sacking of Samana. Right from the victory of Samana upto the victory of Chapar-Chiri, there were so many other battles which were fought by the Khalsa with the Mughal forces. These were the battles of Sadhaura, Ghurham, Kapuri, Shahabad and Banur. All these battles were in the continuation of the victory of Sirhind. Banda Singh's ultimate aim was to punish Wazir Khan and to conquer Sarhind. He wanted Sirhind to be crippled before attacking. Kaithal Samana, Sadhaura, Ghurham, Shahbad, Kapuri and Banur were the main military posts of the province of Sirhind. These military posts were working as the bulwark for Sirhind, the Head-Quarter of the province. Before attacking Sirhind, Banda Singh conquered all these military posts. In a way, he broke the bulwark of Sirhind. Speaking about these battles Gokul Chand Narang writes: "Small as these victories were, they served to encourage the followers of Banda and attracted thousands to his flag by the time he advanced upon Sirhind."1 Thus, Wazir Khan was crippled before the attack. The battle of Chapar-chiri was the culmination of all these battles.
The identification of Chapar-Chiri as the battle-ground was first given by William Irvine in his work, The Later Mughals. He writes that an anonymous Fragment of Farrukh-Siyar-Nama (fo1.15a) states that the fight was near Chappar-Chiri. There are two villages of this name Chappar-Chiri Kalan and Chappar-Chiri Khurd, on Sheet No. 48 of the Indian Atlas. They lie about 16 miles North-East of Sirhind on the Patiyali Raod and are 10 miles North by West of Banur."2 According to him, the battle was fought on 22nd of May, 1710. He writes that, in the beginning, Wazir Khan appeared to have already gained the day. When suddenly a crowd of men were led by Banda Singh Bahadur to an attack on his rear. This bold movement put heart into the Sikhs and, with loud cries, they fell in a compact body on the Mughals who, for a time, held their ground. The Sikh swordsmen attacked several elephants and wounded them. Sher Muhammad and Khwaja Ali of Maler Kotla were killed and confusion arose in the Mughal ranks. Wazir Khan, then eighty years of age, continued to shoot his arrows at the Sikhs. At length he too was killed by a musket shot. The baggage was plundered, the elephants captured and the body of Wazir Khan dishonoured and hung to a tree. Not a single Mughal escaped with anything but the clothes upon his back.3
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=22605
Alarm spread through the streets of Sirhind, an old and prosperous town, inhabited by wealthy bankers and traders and many well-born Mohammadans of the learned class. Those who could do so, held. One of the first being Wazir Khan's eldest son, who, leaving all his father's hoards behind him, made off to Delhi with all his family. After a feeble defence of two days, the town was taken. Everyone who, for want of carts or other conveyance, had been left behind, was made prisoner.4 C.H. Payne writes that on approaching the city, Banda Singh Bahadur was met by a large force under the viceroy Wazir Khan. A fierce encounter ensued, in which the Sikhs were completely victorious. Banda engaged Wazir Khan into a hand-to-hand fight and smote off his head with one blow of his sword. The Sikhs entered Sirhind which they 'plundered, massacring many of the inhabitants and wreaking a terrible vengeance on the murderers of the sons of Guru Gobind Singh'.5
Sirhind was a flourishing city at that time. For centuries, it had been prospering its richness. Therefore, beautiful gardens had been planted there. The strong forts, elegant havelies and lofty palaces had been constructed. Emperor Jahangir liked this place so much that he selected this city for his residence. He got the construction of air-cooled palaces in the mid of Aam*Khas-Bagh. It was known at that time as Bagh-i-Hafzi. All these buildings were waiting for the foot-steps of Banda Singh Bahadur after the battle of Chapar-Chiri. But, the city of SIrhind did not motivate the Sikhs to rule, rather it reminded them of tortured* sacrifices of their Guru's young sons. In view of this grief-stricken memory, Banda Singh could bear the beauty of neither the garden nor the residence of the palaces. The idea of making this city his headquarters was not in the mind of the Khalsa. Instead of this, the Sikhs cut down the gardens, ruined the forts, razed the havelies and set fire to the palaces. The Sikhs' anger was not extinguished even after this devastation. They also resolved that they would not leave there even a single brick. To fulfill this resolution they took every two bricks and struck these against each other. This process continued for a long time even after the victory of Sarhind. Thus literally, whosoever visited Sarhind took two bricks in his hands, struck these against each other and threw the same either in the Satluj - if he went towards the west - or in the Ghaggar, if he went towards the east. The Khalsa also ploughed land with the donkeys at the ruins of the city. To plough with the donkeys was, and till day, considered utter dishonour of the place.
Banda Singh Bahadur did not allow that place to enjoy peace, the ruler of which had maltreated his Guru. Had Banda Singh desired, he could have easily used this beautiful city as a centre of his State. But it appears that he did not want to construct his palaces over the ruins of Tenth Guru's sons.
Some historians, such as Karam Singh and Ganda Singh, tried to take off the responsibility of the devastation of the city of Sirhind from Banda Singh Bahadur's shoulders by providing the excuse that it was done by only a few robbers who had entered his army with the object of loot and plunder. However, this is a wrong inception. In a way, these historians have undermined the leadership of Banda Singh. If Banda Singh had not protected the cities, conquered by him, from such robbers, then there could not be any meaning, as well as the utility of law and order established by him in place of the Mughal administration.
In fact, the Sikhs destroyed the city because the idea of revenge was smouldering in their mind eversince the two younger sons of Guru Gobind Singh were bricked alive and the Guru's mother was put to death here by its Governor. The Khalsa had a chance to teach a lesson to the ruler of Sirhind. The lesson was taught by destroying the city, root and branch. The Khalsa hated Wazir Khand to such an extent that it related its hate even to the city of Sirhind. The Khalsa considered Sirhind as the "cursed city". It means that the city of Sirhind was cursed by Guru Gobind Singh. That was the reason that no Sikh Chief longed to take this city under his administration even when they again conquered it in 1764. This did not relate only to Banda Singh, this was related to the other Sikh chiefs as well who followed Banda Singh in 1764-65. Ultimately, the city of Sirhind was given to Bhai Budha Singh by a resolution passed unanimously in the assembly of the Sarbat Khalsa in 1764. Budha Singh further sold it to Baba Ala Singh of Patiala, in lieu of a nominal price. Baba Ala Singh also did not establish here his Head-quarters, rather he made Patiala the capital of his State.
Banda Singh Bahadur had complete control over his army, and there was no robber in it. He had a well disciplined army under his command. This army was so much devoted to the cause that it saw nothing in the battlefield but a destruction of the enemy. The baptized Khalsa was the backbone of his army. This was an army of Saint-Soldiers who always repeated the name of the Lord from their lips and always thought of war in their hearts. It was, in fact, comprised of the true and loyal Sikhs who had once sat at the feet of Guru Gobind Singh himself, and had been touched by the Promethean fire which animated the great Guru himself. They rallied round Banda Singh Bahadur in a spirit of devotion and self-sacrifice as well as to carry on the crusade against the enemies of their movement. Contrary to looting and plundering, hundreds of them sold whatever they had with them, purchased arms, and flocked to the new leader with a determination 'either to win the fight or to suffer martyrdom'. Banda Singh Bahadur infused such a spirit into the hearts of these Khalsa Saint-Soldiers that even the most powerful and trained soldiers of the Mughal armies could not stand against them. His personal magnetism, his undaunted courage and extraordinary valour, knit these Saint-Soldiers, closely to him.
No robber - or opportunist - could deceive the Khalsa or its leader. At Sirhind, all the mosques and tombs stand in the same condition even today. The credit goes to the Khalsa to save all these monuments. If the robbers were out of control then how could these tombs and mosques survive till today? Banda Singh Bahadur's first priority was to protect the religious places of the Muslim society. He destroyed only the political establishment. He carried out even the funeral of those Muslim soldiers who were killed in the war. No Mughal soldier's deadbody was cremated, being un-Islamic. Rather they were buried with due respect.

q

References

1. Transformation of Sikhism, New Delhi, 1998, p. 102.
2. William Irvine, The Later Mughals, Vol. 1., p. 95.
3. Ibid., pp. 95-96.
4. Ibid., p. 96.
5. A Short History of the Sikhs, Patiala, 2002 (reprint), p. 34.