What is the Role of Sants in the Khalsa Panth?

pk70 · #91 (**permalink**) 26-Jun-2008, 01:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sikh80

A question
There is specific mention of Saadh, the Holy in Bani. I had quoted from the bani. In the context the meaning is very clear to me. It seems that Saadh/Sangat can feel the presence of the Lord more easily than an individual. Hence one is advised to be in the company of sangat. But what would be the position of a Saint.[When translated from Sadhu.] Nothing is superfluous and has to be assigned meaning. I fail to do so and would request if learned member can throw some light as to who is saadhu.

Earler,It has been opined by pk 70 ji that one who takes to Naam abhiyaas is a sadhu. However, to me the State of sadhu /sadhoo should be much above the practitioners of naam in the ordinary senses of the word. In any case advice is sought from the members. The term has not been discussed at length anywhere by the commentators as well.
(872-12, goNf, Bgq kbIr jI)
Without the Holy Saint, one cannot reach the Court of the Lord. ||3||

The above line shows that the position of saint is almost equal to Guru or the God Himself. Thus anyone who has attained the jewel of Naam from the God Himself shall qualify for this. But when one has achieved the Naam from the God ,one may not even like to disclose this and hence even if we are able define and try to keep him bound in the definition the identification of Saint shall again be a problem. May be there should be a better explanation.

ਦੂਖੁ ਗਇਆ ਸਭੁ ਰੋਗੁ ਗਇਆ ॥
दूखु गइआ सभु रोगु गइआ ॥
Pain is gone, and all illness is gone.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਾਨੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
प्रभ की आगिआ मन महि मानी महा पुरख का संगु भइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
I have accepted the Will of God in my mind, associating with the Great Person, the Guru. ||1||Pause||

While doing some research on 'Saint' I have come across the above lines and shall be grateful if some light is thrown on the line that is colored in Blue. The literal translation or the literal meaning may not be acceptable as per Sikh philosophy. I submit this for the kind guidance of the learned members.
( Quote Sikh 80 ji)
Sikh 80 ji,
Your comments” literal translation may not be acceptable as per Sikh Phylosophy” Why not? In Gurbani, there is a definition of Sant/ Sadh, why it should be unacceptable to Sikh philosophy?
Above two Guru Vaakas, are together in conveying a meaning, pain and illness also needed to be explained. Pain we endure due to our actions ( current or past), illness is not only related with any physical disease, being inflicted with Maya is also illness, so When Great person, Guru is met, wall of falsehood loaded with illusions is shattered. What result it brings then? His Ordinance is understood ( Hukm Rajaaee chalna Nanak likhya naal), this very Ordinance becomes sweet and obeying it generates happiness; pain, sorrow and all Maya disease are gone because conflicts are gone, Duality ceases to exist. Take another example, He is pious Water, our souls are filthy water, when filth is cleaned, soul water mixed with pious Water.
NOW LOOK AT GURBANI DEFINITION OF SANT/SADH
ਸਲੋਕ ਮਃ ੫ ॥ ਜਿਨਾ ਸਾਸਿ ਗਿਰਾਸਿ ਨ ਵਿਸਰੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾਂ ਮਨਿ ਮੰਤੁ ॥ ਧੰਨੁ ਸਿ ਸੇਈ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਪੂਰਨੁ ਸੋਈ ਸੰਤੁ ॥੧॥ (GGS 319)
Slok 5th Guru. Who with every breath and morsel of theirs, forget not God's Name and within whose mind is this spell, they alone are the blessed and they alone are the perfect saints, O Nanak. (Tr by Manmohan singh)

Sant= Because of being imbued always with Lord’s love as interpreted by Guru ji,so he/she conquers vices, stays above depravity, iniquity, wickedness and corruption, revenge, jealousy, beguiling habits, quagmire of ego- iceberg etc and always remain only imbued with love of Parbrahm.( Bhai Veer Singh “Sri Guru Granth Sahib JiKP-95)

Here is Sadh described by well known and virtuous Bhai Veer Singh and Bhai Kahn Singh Nabha
Sadh= Lover of Akaalpurakh (Bhia Veer Singh Sri Guru Granth Sahib Kosh )
Sadh= Virtuous, devoted to well being for others, Holy man, pious,( Bhai Kahan Singh –Mahan Kosh p-101
ਮਨੁ ਅਸਾਧੁਸਾਧੈ ਜਨੁ ਕੋਇ ॥The mind is uncontrollable; rare are those who subdue it, keep in control. (GGS 159) So Sadh is him/her who has kept mind in control literally from all kind of vices and negative primal forces.
ਛਾਇਆ ਰੂਪੀ ਸਾਧੁ ਹੈ ਜਿਨਿ ਤਜਿਆ ਬਾਦੁ ਬਿਬਾਦੁ (1376)( Kabir Ji)

There can be no more better explanation than the definition of Sant/Sadh given in Gurbani, problem rises when context of Sadh or Sant is not understood in different contexts,
or sticking with one meaning in all different contexts. Just understanding vast application is necessary to get out of confusion about a single word. Guru ji also states the ones who realize HIM becomes like HIM. Again Guru ji states” one in million” koee Virla” will do that; so clearly as per definitions given in Gurbani, Sadh or Sant are very rare, these words were also used for Guru ji. So I do not see any definition given by any one is better than the one given in Gurbani itself. By the way, these are not my views, I just tried say how these words are used in different contexts in Gurbani. If some one comes with different meaning other than what Gurbani says, It will be difficult for me to accept that. Thyanks for sharing your views and questions though.

Sikh80 · #92 (**permalink**) 26-Jun-2008, 09:45 AM

Pk70 ji,

Thanks for taking interest and replying to the above. I have carefully gone through the reply and do appreciate your view point.

If you kindly look into the following Gurmukhi line carefully you would observe that There is no term as 'Guru' in the Gurmukhi line. It is the figment of imagination of the Translator. In the above line, so far as the contemporary sikh philosophy is concerned, the meaning of Maha Purukh should not be any physical guru. We have only one Guru and the is Sabad Guru. If we translate this Maha Purukh into sabad Guru things would not be simple as one can question further and hence I stop here without indulging in any discussion and accept your reply as a perfect reply as there cannot be a better explanation to this.

May be we are not able to go into deep and consider the meaning that was intended to be assigned. I am ,however, happy with your answer as there cannot be better answer than yours.

Kindly look into the followings:

hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.

1. Sadhu makes us drink the Nectar. We are told the naam is given by the Guru only .

swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny.

2. The same thing has been stated for Guru and the Lord. Hence the status of Sadhu should be much above as is understood in ordinary parlance . May be He is the Brahmgyani whose company is recommended in the above line.

kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints, and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.
imlu pUrib iliKAVy Duir krmw ]3] (173-4, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
By one's karma and pre-ordained destiny, they are met.

3. These kinds of edicts are spread over the entire Granth sahib that with pre-ordained destiny one meets Saints. Hence the status of Sadhu again is much more than as is commonly understood. We have Guru Granth Sahib and we do not have any measures with us to locate one who is sadhu as is recommended here or we shall meet him as and when the Lord permits.

sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.
mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.

4. In the above lines it is stated clearly that the status of a saint is no less than Guru who makes us meet the Lord ,the best companion.

pwrbRhm moih ikrpw kIjY ] (181-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
O Supreme Lord God, please shower Your Mercy upon me.
DUir sMqn kI nwnk dIjY ]4]17]86] (181-12, gauVI guAwryrI, mÚ 5)
Bless Nanak with the dust of the feet of the Saints. ||4||17||86||

5.In the above it is stated clearly that Saints are very blessed soul and one should be very humble and accept these kinds of blessed persons. But we meet them with pre-ordained destiny. Further these kinds of persons or 'Virla' only.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/hard-talk/21970-what-is-role-sants-khalsa-panth.html

I think one has to carry on like this. We all interpret bani as per our level of understanding and do accept the meaning as is assigned by the seniors who have wider understanding of the bani and have an over all better appreciation of the bani as a whole. I thank you once again for the lucid reply.

Regards

Line under consideration

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੀ ਆਗਿਆ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਮਾਨੀ ਮਹਾ ਪੁਰਖ ਕਾ ਸੰਗੁ ਭਇਆ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
प्रभ की आगिआ मन महि मानी महा पुरख का संगु भइआ ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
I have accepted the Will of God in my mind, associating with the Great Person, the Guru. ||1||Pause||

Sikh80 · #93 (**permalink**) 26-Jun-2008, 18:23 PM

Respected aad ji,

Your explanation and my putting forward any thing more than this may only tantamount to displeasure of other members who have opinion that is not exactly the same as ours. So I want to not to enter further as this may not be liked and appreciated .I put rest to this discussion with an open mind that we are attuned to the Idea that bani is Nirankaar and sabad Guru is supreme, the status of holy person or saint has to be lower than this. I think the sabad are the compilations when it was not in the form of sabad guru. Everything also cannot and ,probably , was not included in it.

Hence the difficulty.

I have an opinion that is well spelt out as above, may be some members do not agree. I put forward some lines that would be replication of the concept that Guru ji is not talking of sabad guru as a sant though.

Let us look at the following.

jh jh sMq ArwDih qh qh pRgtwieAw ] (456-18, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Wherever the Saints worship the Lord in adoration, there He is revealed.

1.In the above line the contextual meaning leads one to think that Saint is not necessarily sabad Guru , the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Any person who has qualified as a saint shall receive the blessings of the lord in the form of His darshan or meeting Him. Saint may be His devotee with higher spiritual achievements. The next few lines in continuation of the above are as follows:

pRiB Awip lIey smwie shij suBwie Bgq kwrj swirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
God blends Himself with His devotees in His natural way, and resolves their affairs.

Awnµd hir js mhw mMgl srbdUK ivswirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
In the ecstasy of the Lord's Praises, they obtain supreme joy, and forget all their sorrows.

One can easily say that saint has not been stated as sabad guru or vice versa in the above lines.

2. Let us again have the look at the following line.

iQru sMqn sohwgu mrY n jwvey ] (457-2, Awsw, mÚ 5)
The Husband Lord of the Saints is eternal; He does not die or go away.

In the above line also the contextual meaning shall also not be sabad-guru.It clearly refers to a person or a human being. Having said this it can be concluded that Guru sahib had something else in mind while authoring this line or some other lines that convey the idea that sant is an individual only.

We tend to believe that everything stated about saint should be sabad Guru because we are always bound by an idea that sabad Guru is supreme.Yes, it is so but then we shall not do full justification to this term that has been employed and used in bani to convey that we can even bow to the individuals who are stated to be saints and not giving them the status of guru though it cannot be denied that at many places the saints have been given the status of guru .

hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.

I think there cannot be an area of agreement when we arrive at any conclusion as to who is a saint and what is the definition.There are many other quotes in bani that are suggestive of that Saints are persons of higher spiritual status and we should bow to them as well and that they can also make us meet the Lord.

I have quoted in above lines that even the Nectar can be obtained with their blessings. The Nectar is only but naam. However, since God only gives us Naam , this idea may run against the sikh philosophy. But then this is the position stated in bani. Some may not agree but then we cannot over simplify the things to make us fit many things in the wider perspective of bani.

It is only an humble submission as well. Stating more than this may result in unpleasantness and hence I conclude that we all have opinions that need not converge but we all have the right to interpret the things as per our understanding.

It is of little significance if we state that we do not agree with the observation of other member.We can always be silient about this.

Extending the the theme further for understanding and appreciating -Can you not be saint and what is wrong if I bow to you as well and seek your blessings for going ahead. I do not think that I shall be doing anything contrary to bani. Yes, I shall, in that case, not take you as my Guru but a person full of love and devotion of Lord.?

3. There is a clear cut difference between a saint and sangat, the holy congrgation as well.

imlau sMqn kY sMig moih auDwir lyhu ] (457-16, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord!

I have not put forward these to make an impression that I am correct but to impress upon that there is A siant that has higher status than any individual who is a seeker like us. We shall not be doing anything contrary to bani if we hold him in high esteem and even seek his blessings as is stated in bani.

syvw sw iqsu BwvsI sMqw kI hoie Cwru ] (137-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
He has no end or limitation. That service is pleasing to Him, which makes one humble, like the dust of the feet of the Saints

In the above line the term used in Gurmukhi is 'santa' that would mean plural and hence is a generic term different from sangat.

swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny

In the above line as well the idea of sant is reflected as an individual person and not ,necessarily, the Guru that is for us sabad guru. Meeting saints is pre-destined.

We have full explanation of a Siant in Sukhmani sahib as well. One can always refer to that if the doubt still persists.

kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints, and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.

The term employed in Gurmukhi is again Plural thus conveying an idea that saints are individuals only.

sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.

mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.

I seek forgiveness if it is the cause of annoyance to some members.

With kind regards.

Note: I seem to have read a post of aad ji stating that sant should be Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.This post is in response to that post. However, on second look I am not able to trace her post here in the thread.

Note2.
Respected aad ji,
I am able to locate the post. It is on page 9. I was searching for it on page 10 .My mistake.
Regards

Sikh80 · #94 (**permalink**) 26-Jun-2008, 22:19 PM

ਸੋਰਠਿ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥
सोरठि महला ५ ॥
Sorat'h, Fifth Mehl:

ਹਮ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਰੇਨੁ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਹਮ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੀ ਸਰਣਾ ॥
हम संतन की रेनु पिआरे हम संतन की सरणा ॥
I am the dust of the feet of the Beloved Saints; I seek the Protection of their Sanctuary.

ਸੰਤ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਓਟ ਸਤਾਣੀ ਸੰਤ ਹਮਾਰਾ ਗਹਣਾ ॥੧॥
संत हमारी ओट सताणी संत हमारा गहणा ॥१॥
The Saints are my all-powerful Support; the Saints are my ornament and decoration. ||1||

ਹਮ ਸੰਤਨ ਸਿਉ ਬਣਿ ਆਈ ॥
हम संतन सिउ बणि आई ॥
I am hand and glove with the Saints.

ਪੂਰਬਿ ਲਿਖਿਆ ਪਾਈ ॥
पूरबि लिखिआ पाई ॥
I have realized my pre-ordained destiny.

ਇਹੁ ਮਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਭਾਈ ॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
इहु मनु तेरा भाई ॥ रहाउ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
This mind is yours, O Siblings of Destiny. ||Pause||

ਸੰਤਨ ਸਿਉ ਮੇਰੀ ਲੇਵਾ ਦੇਵੀ ਸੰਤਨ ਸਿਉ ਬਿਉਹਾਰਾ ॥
संतन सिउ मेरी लेवा देवी संतन सिउ बिउहारा ॥
My dealings are with the Saints, and my business is with the Saints.

ਸੰਤਨ ਸਿਉ ਹਮ ਲਾਹਾ ਖਾਟਿਆ ਹਰਿ ਭਗਤਿ ਭਰੇ ਭੰਡਾਰਾ ॥੨॥
संतन सिउ हम लाहा खाटिआ हरि भगति भरे भंडारा ॥२॥
I have earned the profit with the Saints, and the treasure filled to over-flowing with devotion to the Lord. ||2||

ਸੰਤਨ ਮੋ ਕਉ ਪੂੰਜੀ ਸਉਪੀ ਤਉ ਉਤਰਿਆ ਮਨ ਕਾ ਧੋਖਾ ॥
संतन मो कउ पूंजी सउपी तउ उतरिआ मन का धोखा ॥
The Saints entrusted to me the capital, and my mind's delusion was dispelled.

ਧਰਮ ਰਾਇ ਅਬ ਕਹਾ ਕਰੈਗੋ ਜਉ ਫਾਟਿਓ ਸਗਲੋ ਲੇਖਾ ॥੩॥
धरम राइ अब कहा करैगो जउ फाटिओ सगलो लेखा ॥३॥
What can the Righteous Judge of Dharma do now? All my accounts have been torn up. ||3||

ਮਹਾ ਅਨੰਦ ਭਏ ਸੁਖੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਸੰਤਨ ਕੈ ਪਰਸਾਦੇ ॥
महा अनंद भए सुखु पाइआ संतन कै परसादे ॥
I have found the greatest bliss, and I am at peace, by the Grace of the Saints.

ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਹਰਿ ਸਿਉ ਮਨੁ ਮਾਨਿਆ ਰੰਗਿ ਰਤੇ ਬਿਸਮਾਦੇ ॥੪॥੮॥੧੯॥
कहु नानक हरि सिउ मनु मानिआ रंगि रते बिसमादे ॥४॥८॥१९॥
Says Nanak, my mind is reconciled with the Lord; it is imbued with the wondrous Love of the Lord. ||4||8||19||

Narayanjot Kaur · #95 (**permalink**) 27-Jun-2008, 00:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sikh80

Respected aad ji,

Your explanation and my putting forward any thing more than this may only tantamount to displeasure of other members who have opinion that is not exactly the same as ours. So I want to not to enter further as this may not be liked and appreciated .I put rest to this discussion with an open mind that we are attuned to the Idea that bani is Nirankaar and sabad Guru is supreme, the status of holy person or saint has to be lower than this. I think the sabad are the compilations when it was not in the form of sabad guru. Everything also cannot and ,probably , was not included in it.

Hence the difficulty.

I have an opinion that is well spelt out as above, may be some members do not agree. I put forward some lines that would be replication of the concept that Guru ji is not talking of sabad guru as a sant though.

Let us look at the following.

jh jh sMq ArwDih qh qh pRgtwieAw ] (456-18, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Wherever the Saints worship the Lord in adoration, there He is revealed.

1.In the above line the contextual meaning leads one to think that Saint is not necessarily sabad Guru , the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Any person who has qualified as a saint shall receive the blessings of the lord in the form of His darshan or meeting Him. Saint may be His devotee with higher spiritual achievements. The next few lines in continuation of the above are as follows:

pRiB Awip lIey smwie shij suBwie Bgq kwrj swirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
God blends Himself with His devotees in His natural way, and resolves their affairs.

Awnµd hir js mhw mMgl srbdUK ivswirAw ] (456-19, Awsw, mÚ 5)
In the ecstasy of the Lord's Praises, they obtain supreme joy, and forget all their sorrows.

One can easily say that saint has not been stated as sabad guru or vice versa in the above lines.

2. Let us again have the look at the following line.

iQru sMqn sohwgu mrY n jwvey ] (457-2, Awsw, mÚ 5)
The Husband Lord of the Saints is eternal; He does not die or go away.

In the above line also the contextual meaning shall also not be sabad-guru.It clearly refers to a person or a human being. Having said this it can be concluded that Guru sahib had something else in mind while authoring this line or some other lines that convey the idea that sant is an individual only.

We tend to believe that everything stated about saint should be sabad Guru because we are always bound by an idea that sabad Guru is supreme.Yes, it is so but then we shall not do full justification to this term that has been employed and used in bani to convey that we can even bow to the individuals who are stated to be saints and not giving them the status of guru though it cannot be denied that at many places the saints have been given the status of guru .

hir AMimRq bUMd suhwvxI imil swDU pIvxhwru ] (134-12, mwJ, mÚ 5)
The drops of the Lord's Nectar are so beautiful! Meeting the Holy Saint, we drink these in.

I think there cannot be an area of agreement when we arrive at any conclusion as to who is a saint and what is the definition.There are many other quotes in bani that are suggestive of that Saints are persons of higher spiritual status and we should bow to them as well and that they can also make us meet the Lord.

I have quoted in above lines that even the Nectar can be obtained with their blessings. The Nectar is only but naam. However, since God only gives us Naam , this idea may run against the sikh philosophy. But then this is the position stated in bani. Some may not agree but then we cannot over simplify the things to make us fit many things in the wider perspective of bani.

It is only an humble submission as well. Stating more than this may result in unpleasantness and hence I conclude that we all have opinions that need not converge but we all have the right to interpret the things as per our understanding.

It is of little significance if we state that we do not agree with the observation of other member.We can always be silient about this.

Extending the the theme further for understanding and appreciating -Can you not be saint and what is wrong if I bow to you as well and seek your blessings for going ahead. I do not think that I shall be doing anything contrary to bani. Yes, I shall, in that case, not take you as my Guru but a person full of love and devotion of Lord.?

3. There is a clear cut difference between a saint and sangat, the holy congrgation as well.

imlau sMqn kY sMig moih auDwir lyhu ] (457-16, Awsw, mÚ 5)
Let me join the Society of the Saints - save me, Lord!

I have not put forward these to make an impression that I am correct but to impress upon that there is A siant that has higher status than any individual who is a seeker like us. We shall not be doing anything contrary to bani if we hold him in high esteem and even seek his blessings as is stated in bani.

syvw sw iqsu BwvsI sMqw kI hoie Cwru ] (137-2, mwJ, mÚ 5)
He has no end or limitation. That service is pleasing to Him, which makes one humble, like the dust of the feet of the Saints

In the above line the term used in Gurmukhi is 'santa' that would mean plural and hence is a generic term different from sangat.

swDu imlY pUrb sMjog ] (153-2, gauVI, mÚ 1)
One meets the Holy Saint only through perfect destiny

In the above line as well the idea of sant is reflected as an individual person and not ,necessarily, the Guru that is for us sabad guru. Meeting saints is pre-destined.

We have full explanation of a Siant in Sukhmani sahib as well. One can always refer to that if the doubt still persists.

kir syvw sMqw AMimRqu muiK pwhw jIau ] (173-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Let's serve the Saints, and drink in the Ambrosial Nectar.

The term employed in Gurmukhi is again Plural thus conveying an idea that saints are individuals only.

sMq jnw imil pwieAw myry goivdw myrw hir pRBu sjxu sYxI jIau ] (174-1, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
Meeting the Saints, O my Lord of the Universe, I have found my Lord God, my Companion, my Best Friend.

mY mylhu sMq myrw hir pRBu sjxu mY min qin BuK lgweIAw jIau ] (174-3, gauVI mwJ, mÚ 4)
O Saints, unite me with my Lord God, my Best Friend; my mind and body are hungry for Him.

I seek forgiveness if it is the cause of annoyance to some members.

With kind regards.

Note: I seem to have read a post of aad ji stating that sant should be Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.This post is in response to that post. However, on second look I am not able to trace her post here in the thread.

Note2.
Respected aad ji,
I am able to locate the post. It is on page 9. I was searching for it on page 10 .My mistake.
Regards

Siikho80 ji

I have to admit that I don't understand. Pk70 didn't seem displeased. He seemed to be saying something very similar but in more detail and using somewhat different language. There are "sants" and there is The Holy Sant. The meaning of sant will not always be the same. Maybe I didn't understand him.

But pk ji and I are usually in fairly close agreement.

Josh martin · #96 (**permalink**) 13-Jul-2009, 00:40 AM

so whats the census so far, on the role on sants in khalsa panth?

Tejwant Singh · #97 (**permalink**) 13-Jul-2009, 09:04 AM

Sant is not a title in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji but an adjective which requires continues action of breeding goodness within and emitting it like a flower in all directions to all sans bias. The moment he/she stop breeding that, then they cease to be Sants.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970

In other words, Sants, Brahmgyanis and other similar words used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are for the people who are like natural fountains of water. The moment the water stops coming from the ground, they end up being nothing but holes.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970

So, all of us who are able to breed goodness within and are able to act saintly in that sense.

Tejwant Singh

prakash.s.bagga · #98 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2011, 16:24 PM

It is surprising to note the contents right at the start where it is being clarified the in Gurbaani Bhagat Prahlad ji and Bhagat Kabir ji both have been refered as Sants in Gurbaani.
I have personally verified this and I do not find any such quote in Gurbaani to conclude that they have been refered as Sants.

In Gurbaani the word "Sant" has been refered to GuRU-GuR Joti and therefore this is not a reference for any person.We should try to understand this.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970

Prakash.S.Bagga

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #99 (**permalink**) 08-Jul-2011, 17:22 PM

bhaag hoaa gur_sant milayah..IS GURU ARJUN jI SAHIB REFERRING TO hIS FATHER Guru Ramdass Ji...and is the CLEAREST POINTER as to what/who is a "SANT". Its definitely not a HUMAN BEING..as Guru Arjun Ji also declared..MANUKH KEE TEK BIRTHEE JAAN...

But then its difficult to force a horse (or even a donkey) to drink...one cna just take it to the WATER SOURCE....some people are so ATTACHED to the HUMAN DEH and NOT the SHABAD as the GURUS TAUGHT USand the GURU STILL TEACHES US IN Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji) that they become BLIND and follow their human sants as Brahmgyanis...Mann andah naam sujaan..these Masters of BHARAM (Not Braham) keep on attracting followers, claim to chhakaa "amrit" to hundreds of THOUSANDS each year..and yet look at a Live Broadcast of any Dharmik Diwan..mostly PATKA wearing Monas...take a look at the matha tekkers at Harmandar sahib Daily..hardly a sabat Soorat among the thousands pushing and shoving to matha tek...WHERE are all thos Amrtidharees that Babas like nanad Singh isher singh rarrewaalhs dhadriwllahs etc etc produced..each Punjab Village should be FULL of Sabat Soorats..yet 99% of men in a Punjab village will be MONAS !! YES the Sants build huge DERAS, marble and Gold Gurdwaras, Colleges named after their DEAD ANCESTORS - NO DERA has a College/School named after the GURU SAHIBAANS...all PERSONAL PROPERTY controlled by the sant-Bharamgyani ( see how they fight and shoot live bullets in the hazooree of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji like in nanksar for the Goluck and gadee ). Listen to the Harsh Language the dhadri snat used when he got angry at babbu mann..is that type of Sant fit the description given in GURBANI/Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as GUR-SANT ?? of course NOT..hes a typical angry young man mouthing nonsense and yet he is Sant !!..he is NOT even an "ANT" after we drop the "S"....more likely just "NT" non-entity.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=21970

Its a FACT beyond dispute that the One and ONLY SANT today is GUR-SANT GURU..SATGUR..Dhan Dhan Sahib Sri Guru granth sahib Ji ONLY.