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shabads of kabeer ji

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  #1 (permalink)  
Old 17-Oct-2005, 23:46 PM
kds1980's Avatar kds1980 kds1980 is offline
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shabads of kabeer ji

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wjkk
wjkf


on page 326 of guru granth sahib kabir ji wrote
AYsy Gr hm bhuqu bswey ] (326-1, gauVI, kbIr jI)
aisay ghar ham bahut basaa-ay.
I lived in many such homes, O Lord,

jb hm rwm grB hoie Awey ]1] rhwau ] (326-1, gauVI, kbIr jI)
jab ham raam garabh ho-ay aa-ay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
before I came into the womb this time. ||1||Pause||

jogI jqI qpI bRhmcwrI ] (326-2, gauVI, kbIr jI)
jogee jatee tapee barahamchaaree.
I was a Yogi, a celibate, a penitent, and a Brahmchaaree, with strict self-discipline.

kbhU rwjw CqRpiq kbhU ByKwrI ]2] (326-2, gauVI, kbIr jI)
kabhoo raajaa chhatarpat kabhoo bhaykhaaree. ||2||
Sometimes I was a king, sitting on the throne, and sometimes I was a beggar. ||2||

swkq mrih sMq siB jIvih ] (326-2, gauVI, kbIr jI)
saakat mareh sant sabh jeeveh.
The faithless cynics shall die, while the Saints shall all survive.

while on 1366 kabir ji wrote
Page 1366

AYsy mrny jo mrY bhuir n mrnw hoie ]29] (1366-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
aisay marnay jo marai bahur na marnaa ho-ay. ||29||
Let those who die, die such a death, that they shall never have to die again. ||29||

kbIr mwns jnmu dulBu hY hoie n bwrY bwr ] (1366-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeer maanas janam dulambh hai ho-ay na baarai baar.
Kabeer, it is so difficult to obtain this human body; it does not just come over and over again.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/5760-shabads-of-kabeer-ji.html

ijau bn Pl pwky Buie igrih bhuir n lwgih fwr ]30] (1366-1, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760
ji-o ban fal paakay bhu-ay gireh bahur na laageh daar. ||30||
It is like the ripe fruit on the tree; when it falls to the ground, it cannot be re-attached to the branch. ||30||

kbIrw quhI kbIru qU qyro nwau kbIru ] (1366-2, slok, Bgq kbIr jI)
kabeeraa tuhee kabeer too tayro naa-o kabeer.
Kabeer, you are Kabeer; yo

in the first shabad kabir ji wrote that some times he was beggar sometimes he was king in the second shabad kabir ji is saying that this human body does not come again
i want to know from a scholar of gurbani why these shabads
contradicts.



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  #2 (permalink)  
Old 18-Oct-2005, 12:29 PM
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

I'm far from a scholar...

but, after reading just that shabad, this is what I intrepreted..

He does not speak of "re-incarnation" so to say, he speaks of different cycles of life everyone goes through. There is always a time in your life, where ego gets to you, and you feel like a king...a time where you lose everything, and begin to beg for material wealth or mercy.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

The human body only becomes once, so defeat the useless cycle of life which plagues most humans...and attain something bigger, and brighter. You fall of a tree like an apple, only once...there's no way to get back on your branch...make the most of it.


And when he says "womb this time" in the beginning, I take it as he refers to he has went everywhere in philosophical thinking, but finally he has reached God's realm...Nirvana.


I know, a really elementary intrepration...but according to that logic, thats how he explains himself as feeling like a king, and all the other things.

I just don't see this passage directly correlating to re-incarnation.
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Old 18-Oct-2005, 15:59 PM
kds1980's Avatar kds1980 kds1980 is offline
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

wjkk
wjkf

sikh ji the first shabad is about reincarnation the first lines are
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760
gauVI kbIr jI ] (325-19)
ga-orhee kabeer jee.
Gauree, Kabeer Jee:

AsQwvr jMgm kIt pqMgw ] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
asthaavar jangam keet patangaa.
The mobile and immobile creatures, insects and moths

Aink jnm kIey bhu rMgw ]1] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
anik janam kee-ay baho rangaa. ||1||
- in numerous lifetimes, I have passed through those many forms. ||1||

i read the punjabi translation of that shabad of pro sahib singh in his translation .he also says that shabad is about reincarnation.gyani sant singh ji maskeen also says that in his katha.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

here is another shabad in guru granth in which it is written that we have sins of countless past lives

Basant, Fourth Mehl, Hindol:

qum@ vf purK vf Agm gusweI hm kIry ikrm qumnCy ] (1178-10, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
tumH vad purakh vad agam gusaa-ee ham keeray kiram tumnachhay.
You are the Great Supreme Being, the Vast and Inaccessible Lord of the World; I am a mere insect, a worm created by You.

hir dIn dieAwl krhu pRB ikrpw gur siqgur crx hm bnCy ]1] (1178-10, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
har deen da-i-aal karahu parabh kirpaa gur satgur charan ham banchhay. ||1||
O Lord, Merciful to the meek, please grant Your Grace; O God, I long for the feet of the Guru, the True Guru. ||1||

goibMd jIau sqsMgiq myil kir ikpCy ] (1178-11, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
gobind jee-o satsangat mayl kar kirpachhay.
O Dear Lord of the Universe, please be merciful and unite me with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

jnm jnm ky iklivK mlu BirAw imil sMgiq kir pRB hnCy ]1] rhwau ] (1178-12, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
janam janam kay kilvikh mal bhari-aa mil sangat kar parabh hanchhay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
I was overflowing with the filthy sins of countless past lives. But joining the Sangat, God made me pure again. ||1||Pause||

qum@rw jnu jwiq Aivjwqw hir jipE piqq pvICy ] (1178-12, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
tumHraa jan jaat avijaataa har japi-o patit paveechhay.
Your humble servant, whether of high class or low class, O Lord - by meditating on You, the sinner becomes pure.

hir kIE sgl Bvn qy aUpir hir soBw hir pRB idnCy ]2] (1178-13, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
har kee-o sagal bhavan tay oopar har sobhaa har parabh dinchhay. ||2||
The Lord exalts and elevates him above the whole world, and the Lord God blesses him with the Lord's Glory. ||2||

jwiq Ajwiq koeI pRB iDAwvY siB pUry mwns iqnCy ] (1178-14, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
jaat ajaat ko-ee parabh Dhi-aavai sabh pooray maanas tinchhay.
Anyone who meditates on God, whether of high class or low class, will have all of his hopes and desires fulfilled.

sy DMin vfy vf pUry hir jn ijn@ hir DwirE hir aurCy ]3] (1178-14, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
say Dhan vaday vad pooray har jan jinH har Dhaari-o har urchhay. ||3||
Those humble servants of the Lord who enshrine the Lord within their hearts, are blessed, and are made great and totally perfect. ||3||

hm FINFy FIm bhuqu Aiq BwrI hir Dwir ikpw pRB imlCy ] (1178-15, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
ham dheeNdhay dheem bahut at bhaaree har Dhaar kirpaa parabh milchhay.
I am so low, I am an utterly heavy lump of clay. Please shower Your Mercy on me, Lord, and unite me with Yourself.

jn nwnk guru pwieAw hir qUTy hm kIey piqq pvICy ]4]2]4] (1178-16, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
jan naanak gur paa-i-aa har toothay ham kee-ay patit paveechhay. ||4||2||4||
The Lord, in His Mercy, has led servant Nanak to find the Guru; I was a sinner, and now I have become immaculate and pure.

so there is no question of not beleiving in reincarnation as it is mentioned several times in gurbani
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Old 18-Oct-2005, 18:43 PM
S|kH's Avatar S|kH S|kH is offline
 
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

It still doesn't make sense...

Re-incarnation can not be proven, and specifically what you were before can never be known (thats the whole point isnt it?)

And, even at that...Guru Nanak never spoke all that much on after-death situations.

I still believe theres something more poetic about the re-incarnaton lines than we are grasping.

The maximum you can have is for someone to state the possibility of re-incarnation and the mechanism on how it works. But, as soon as he starts describing the trip through it, I tend to believe its a poetic reference to something else?

If his main point was to stress re-incarnation, than why even go through specific life-forms, and exactly...why the life-forms he chose to write? Why not other ones? A King, a begger were all chosen for a reason...

And if you believe Kabeer to be wise enough to actually be able to prove re-incarnation, and have gone through those life-forms and remembered it...then surely he'd be wise enough to not leave a contradictory statement like that.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760


Looking at the rest of the quotes, the only one that seems to me to actually be fact of re-incarnation belief is "AsQwvr jMgm kIt pqMgw ] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
asthaavar jangam keet patangaa.
The mobile and immobile creatures, insects and moths
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

Aink jnm kIey bhu rMgw ]1] (325-19, gauVI, kbIr jI)
anik janam kee-ay baho rangaa. ||1||
- in numerous lifetimes, I have passed through those many forms. ||1||"

the rest of the other shabad also makes it.....sort of questionable?
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Old 18-Oct-2005, 18:49 PM
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

Quote:
Originally Posted by kds1980
wjkk

here is another shabad in guru granth in which it is written that we have sins of countless past lives

Basant, Fourth Mehl, Hindol:

qum@ vf purK vf Agm gusweI hm kIry ikrm qumnCy ] (1178-10, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
tumH vad purakh vad agam gusaa-ee ham keeray kiram tumnachhay.
You are the Great Supreme Being, the Vast and Inaccessible Lord of the World; I am a mere insect, a worm created by You.

hir dIn dieAwl krhu pRB ikrpw gur siqgur crx hm bnCy ]1] (1178-10, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
har deen da-i-aal karahu parabh kirpaa gur satgur charan ham banchhay. ||1||
O Lord, Merciful to the meek, please grant Your Grace; O God, I long for the feet of the Guru, the True Guru. ||1||

goibMd jIau sqsMgiq myil kir ikpCy ] (1178-11, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
gobind jee-o satsangat mayl kar kirpachhay.
O Dear Lord of the Universe, please be merciful and unite me with the Sat Sangat, the True Congregation.

jnm jnm ky iklivK mlu BirAw imil sMgiq kir pRB hnCy ]1] rhwau ] (1178-12, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
janam janam kay kilvikh mal bhari-aa mil sangat kar parabh hanchhay. ||1|| rahaa-o.
I was overflowing with the filthy sins of countless past lives. But joining the Sangat, God made me pure again. ||1||Pause||

qum@rw jnu jwiq Aivjwqw hir jipE piqq pvICy ] (1178-12, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
tumHraa jan jaat avijaataa har japi-o patit paveechhay.
Your humble servant, whether of high class or low class, O Lord - by meditating on You, the sinner becomes pure.

hir kIE sgl Bvn qy aUpir hir soBw hir pRB idnCy ]2] (1178-13, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
har kee-o sagal bhavan tay oopar har sobhaa har parabh dinchhay. ||2||
The Lord exalts and elevates him above the whole world, and the Lord God blesses him with the Lord's Glory. ||2||

jwiq Ajwiq koeI pRB iDAwvY siB pUry mwns iqnCy ] (1178-14, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
jaat ajaat ko-ee parabh Dhi-aavai sabh pooray maanas tinchhay.
Anyone who meditates on God, whether of high class or low class, will have all of his hopes and desires fulfilled.

sy DMin vfy vf pUry hir jn ijn@ hir DwirE hir aurCy ]3] (1178-14, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
say Dhan vaday vad pooray har jan jinH har Dhaari-o har urchhay. ||3||
Those humble servants of the Lord who enshrine the Lord within their hearts, are blessed, and are made great and totally perfect. ||3||

hm FINFy FIm bhuqu Aiq BwrI hir Dwir ikpw pRB imlCy ] (1178-15, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
ham dheeNdhay dheem bahut at bhaaree har Dhaar kirpaa parabh milchhay.
I am so low, I am an utterly heavy lump of clay. Please shower Your Mercy on me, Lord, and unite me with Yourself.

jn nwnk guru pwieAw hir qUTy hm kIey piqq pvICy ]4]2]4] (1178-16, bsMqu ihMfol, m 4)
jan naanak gur paa-i-aa har toothay ham kee-ay patit paveechhay. ||4||2||4||
The Lord, in His Mercy, has led servant Nanak to find the Guru; I was a sinner, and now I have become immaculate and pure.

so there is no question of not beleiving in reincarnation as it is mentioned several times in gurbani

I dont know...to me sins of countless past lives is a metaphor.
I mean, the whole theory on joining the Khalsa Panth was like being "re-born" has been around for a while, and used metaphorically by Sikhs for a long time.

They were "re-born" into the Panj Pyare...yet, everyone knows they werent actually re-born physically, but mentally.

I'm sure you have heard a human saying the same thing about an experience in their life...
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Old 18-Oct-2005, 22:43 PM
kds1980's Avatar kds1980 kds1980 is offline
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

wjkk
wjkf

dear sikh ji several times it is mentioned in guru granth sahib that all your sufferings are due to your past lives sins it has nothing to do with taking
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760
amrit.if we don't have don't have any past human lives then why the destiny of every human is diffrent.if a person is born mentally retarded then what
is his fault.he can't do simran .will he go back to 84 lakh jooni cycle.
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Old 18-Oct-2005, 23:14 PM
kds1980's Avatar kds1980 kds1980 is offline
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

wjkk
wjkf

here is another shabad from guru granth
sloku ] (253-12)
salok.
Shalok:

kuMt cwir dh idis BRmy krm ikriq kI ryK ] (253-12, gauVI, m 5)
kunt chaar dah dis bharamay karam kirat kee raykh.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760
He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.

sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, m 5)
sookh dookh mukat jon naanak likhi-o laykh. ||1||
Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny. ||1||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

it is written in this shabad that we get everything according to our pre ordained destiny if we don't have any previous human life then why the destiny of every person is diffrent
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Old 18-Oct-2005, 23:21 PM
kds1980's Avatar kds1980 kds1980 is offline
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Re: shabads of kabeer ji

wjkk
wjkf

here is another shabad from guru granth
sloku ] (253-12)
salok.
Shalok:

kuMt cwir dh idis BRmy krm ikriq kI ryK ] (253-12, gauVI, m 5)
kunt chaar dah dis bharamay karam kirat kee raykh.
He wanders around in the four quarters and in the ten directions, according to the dictates of his karma.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

sUK dUK mukiq join nwnk iliKE lyK ]1] (253-12, gauVI, m 5)
sookh dookh mukat jon naanak likhi-o laykh. ||1||
Pleasure and pain, liberation and reincarnation, O Nanak, come according to one's pre-ordained destiny. ||1||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

it is written in this shabad that we get everything according to our pre ordained destiny if we don't have any previous human life then why the destiny of every person is diffrent
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Old 19-Oct-2005, 07:43 AM
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Lightbulb Re: shabads of kabeer ji

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Dear Friends

There is a difference Between ReProduction and Production.

Reproduction means producing something from which has already been produced.

Production means a fresh production starting from the scratch.

Thought the above definitions are not exhaustive .......

And We Human beings Reproduce .

When you are born , you are not born , you are reproduced .

You are reproduced out of your parents ......
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

So , your parents Past life becomes yours .......

If , a particular parent does some mistake , then it is bound that a new offspring reproduced may be mentally retarded ......

When , you take birth ...... then you own life is responsible for your future destiny ......
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5760

In a single life we are born and reborn many times ...........

If scientifically be seen , each and every second old cells die and new cells are born .........
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