Why Number One is for Two Guru's Vaak in Japji Sahib?

Aman Singh · #1 (**permalink**) 23-Jul-2005, 16:48 PM

Originally Posted by : Balbir Singh

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakal!
Dear Gurbani Lovers!

I have a curiosity.

In Japuji Sahib after Guru's Vaak "hai bhee sach naanak hosee bhee sach" number '1' occurs.

The same number '1' occurs again after Guru's Vaak "hukam rajaa-ee chalnaa naanak likhi-aa
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/5233-why-number-one-two-gurus-vaak.html

naal"

Please explain what the use of same number '1' indicates at both the places?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

I will be grateful.

Balbir Singh
*

Aman Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 23-Jul-2005, 16:50 PM

Originally Posted by : Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji Arshi

Veer balbir Singh Ji,

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru Ji KI Fateh.

The First numeral [1] is for the First Slok in Guru Granth Ji sahib. This Slok is frm AAd Sach...to nank Hosee bhee sach [1] Two Dandees or Full Stops and then the TITLE of the bani PRECEEDED by TWO DANDEES [[ JAP ]] followed by another two Dandees [[]..again Full Stop.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

Then The FIRST PAURREE of Jap begins..and at its end there is Numeral [1] to indicate end of First Paurree. Two DANDEES are placed before every numeral ending indicating FULL STOP. This numbering goes on uninterrupted until the end of 38th Purree. Then we have the Ending Slok and the Numeral [1] at its end as well.

Even though the First SLOK of Japji Sahib doesnt cary the title "SLOK" as does its ending slok, it is clear from the DANDEES that the Full Stop is at GURPARSAAD..and then Jap and then Slok..and then Paurrees. Guru Arjun Ji Sahib Gives this Same Panktees..AAD SAch..until nanak Hosee Bhee sach in SRI SUKHMANI SAHIB and clearly indicates that it is a SLOK..leaving no doubt that this is a SLOK and NOT part of the Moolmantar, as most of the Sants/traditionalists claim. IF we take that this is all ONE continuous Panktee from EK Oankar to Hosee bhee sach..then we encounter THREE Obstructions to the FLOW... THREE SETS of DOUBLE DANDEES placed IN BETWEEN the panktee and the Numeral [1]. NO Bani in Guru garnth Ji is "cut up" by double dandees in this way. According to Gurbani Grammar and Laws of Linguistics/poetry in which Gurbani is written these lines are a "SLOK"..they are not Paurree/dohra/etc. ALL Scholars refer to this as SLOK.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

For more comprehensive expalnation read the 10 Volume "Guru Granth ji Darpan" of Prof sahib Singh Ji...www.darpan.com . Prof sahib singh Ji is one of the pioneer schoalrs to comprehensively tackle the issue fo GURBANI GRAMMAR which is UNIQUE to Gurbani ONLY.

Regards..

Jarnail Singh Gyani Arshi

Aman Singh · #3 (**permalink**) 23-Jul-2005, 16:50 PM

Originally Posted by : Balbir Singh Ji

Satsriakal to all and Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
Thanks for your explanation.

You wrote "According to Gurbani Grammar and Laws of Linguistics/poetry in which Gurbani is written these lines are a "SLOK"..they are not Paurree/dohra/etc. ALL Scholars refer to this as SLOK."

In my understanding poetry is always in a metric scale, i.e., counts of Matras. This is also the reason why poetry is easy to sing in particular Ragas.

Is there a particular reason why the word 'SLOK' is not used in the beginning of Gurbani?

In Sukhmani Sahib "aad sach jugaad sach hai bhe sach naanak hosee bhe sach" have got a title 'SLOK'.

This Guru's Vaak occurs as 'SLOK' when it is independent and alone. Whereas in Japuji Sahib, this Vaak from Guru Nanak Ji is not alone.

You have also used the word 'Moolmantar'.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

Please let me know which of our Gurus have told us what 'Moolmantar' is?

Balbir Singh

Aman Singh · #4 (**permalink**) 23-Jul-2005, 16:51 PM

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji Arshi

Guruswareh Veer balbir Singh Ji,
Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji ki fateh.

The words Moolmantar, Beej mantar, Gurmantar are man made. NO Guru Ji told anyone that.

Slok is a Chhand..variety of Poetry.

It is not mandatory to write "SLOK" in front of every "slok"..just as in Japji Sahib..each PAURREE is NOT titled "PAURREE"....but all Sikhs refer to these as the 38 Paurrees of japji Sahib. The Last SLOK of Japji sahib is titled "Slok"
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

Gurbani is written according to the chhands etc and EACH one is instantly RECOGNISABLE..whether it is identified as such or not.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

There are about 152 SLOKS extra to the Vaars and they are all groupred together before MUndawni towards the end of Guru Granth ji sahib..under one collective title..SLOK varaan te Vadheek.

I hope this clarifies Ji.

Gurfateh

Aman Singh · #5 (**permalink**) 23-Jul-2005, 16:52 PM

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh Ji

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233
Satsriakal to all and respected Gyani Jarnail Singh Ji!
Thanks for your post and illuminations.

You wrote that it is not mandatory to write "SLOK" in front of every "slok"..just as in Japji Sahib..each PAURREE is NOT titled "PAURREE"....but all Sikhs refer to these as the 38 Paurrees of japji Sahib. The Last SLOK of Japji sahib is titled "Slok".
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

My curiosity is not to know why Sikhs refer to first part of Japuji as 'SLOK' or the following stanzas as 'PAUREE'.

There may be many customary practices which some Sikhs may have adopted without any instructions from our Gurus.

I am not surprised to read your point "The words Moolmantar, Beej mantar, Gurmantar are man made. NO Guru Ji told anyone that."

I thought that Gurdev has conveyed a message by using number '1' twice in some of Verses like in Japuji Sahib.

It would be great to have Satsangs with you all on this and other messages from Gurbani in SPN Forum, also in the future.

Love.

Balbir Singh

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 24-Jul-2005, 15:38 PM

Guruswareh veer Balbir Singh jio,
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa waheguru Ji KI fateh.

As far as I can ascertain... SLOKS, PAURREES, KABITTS, DOHRAS, ASHTPADEES, VAAR, CHHANT, etc etc are the various types of KAVITA..POETRY.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

As we can see in Sri Sukhmani Sahib..there are SLOKS and there are Ashtpadees... WHAT reason would there be to "call one piece a SLOK..and the other an "ashtpadee"...than the reason that these are SLOKS and the others are ashtpadees..Chaupadeh, Do padeh, etc..all Different types of CHHANDS used by Gurdev Ji to wrote Gurbani in POETRY FORM. IF GURDEV had used an ESSAY FORM..( WARTAK FORM ) it would be all one continous piece of ESSAY.

IN English Literature I used to teach..Lyrics, , hymns, Psalms,LIMERICKS, ODES, etc etc and they are instantly recognisable to a linguist. No one woudlk call an ODE..a "LIMERICK"...just l;ike no one will call a "SLOK" a "PAURREE" because they are DIFFERENT.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

The entire Jap Ji is a LONG GEET...sung by GURDEV to the sweet sound of Mardana's REBAB....this is PUNJABI LITERATURE's FIRST RELIGIOUS POEm/GEET...says Prof Surinder Singh kohli.

It is very heartwarming to have soul mates like your good self on SPN to discuss Gurdev...

Jarnail Singh Gyani

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #7 (**permalink**) 25-Jul-2005, 04:14 AM

Veer balbir Singh Ji,
Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji KI fateh.

Gurdev Is always smiling at all his beloveds.
But this numeral [1] is the numbering sysytem put in place by GURU SAHIB Jee to stop any and all plagirising, additions adulterations, etc. Gurdev has at numerous places written SUB TOTALS...TOTALS..juts like an Accountant would do to signify his document has been checked. This UNBREAKABLE numbering system is one of the main reasons WHY Gurbani in Guru Granth Ji has survived 500 years without any Additions, changes, adultertions in the 1429 AAngs before Mundawnai Seal of Guru Ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

Look at Sri Sukhmani Sahib. The Numeral [1] appears at the end of panktee Sri Gudev Eh nameh... Then the Numeral [1] again appears at the end of panktee..Nanank Un Sang Mohi Udharo [1]...BUT then STOPS and numeral [2] begisn adn so on..

WHY ?? Because the First numerl [1] signifies ONE SLOK. IF there had been a SECOND SLOK immediately following this..and more..then the numbers would go to [2]..[3]...[4]...[5]..etc.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

SAME SYSTEM in JAPJI SAHIB.

Gurdev Ji is smiling....because His SYSTEM of Numbering has saved the Guru Granth ji from being changed and adulterated as has been most of our LITERATURE, janam Sakhis, Varaan, Ithishas etc.

AT any other place also IF there is ONLY ONE SLOK, CHHANT, PAURREE..then there will be only [1]...but if there are more then the numbers run in sequence..and a Sub total/Total Jorr keceh sign from Guru Ji is there.

Basking in the Warm Glow of Gurdev Ji's Smile....

Jarnail Singh Arshi

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #8 (**permalink**) 26-Jul-2005, 13:34 PM

Satkar Yog Balbir Singh jio,
Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh.

I dont see what is the "problem". This vaar has 22 Paurrees and sloks. The SLOKs are numbered correctly [1] and the following slok [2].

Then Paurree followed by the next two sloks numbered accordingly. This system is followed scruplously through out the Vaar and the Next one too...and through out the entire Guru Granth ji sahib.

Here is what Prof sahib Singh Ji in His Guru Granth Ji darpan has to say about this:

vwr dI bxqr :—
ieh ‘vwr’ gurU Amrdws jI dI rcnw hY, ies ivc 22 paVIAW hn, hryk paVI ivc pMj pMj qkW hn [ hryk pauVI dy nwl do do Slok hn; pauVI nM: 4 dy nwl pihlw Slok kbIr jI dw hY, bwkI dy swry Slok gurU Amrdws jI dy hn [
kbIr jI dw ie`k Slok hoxw BI d`sdw hY ik ‘vwr’ qy ‘Slok’ ie`ko vkq nhIN ilKy gey ikauNik ‘vwr’ dy SlokW dI bxqr ivc iek-surqw nhIN rih geI [ jy iehnW dy ilKx dw vkq ie`k hI hMudw qW pauVI nM: 4 dy nwl isr& ie`ko slok nwh ilKdy [ ies pauVI dy SlokW ƒ pVH ky vyKo; gurU Amrdws jI ny ieh Slok aucwirAw BI kbIr jI dy Slok dy prQwie hI hY (vyKo, slok kbIr jI nM: 58) [ so, ieh dovyN Slok gurU Arjn swihb ny ies pauVI dy Bwv nwl imldy vyK ky drj kIqy hn pr ieh nhIN sI ho skdw ik jy gurU Amrdws jI swry Slok BI nwl hI aucwrdy qW ies pauVI nM: 4 ƒ ^wlI C`f dyNdy, so, swry hI Slok bIV iqAwr krn vyly gurU Arjn swihb ny drj kIqy [

not :—sRI krqwrpur vwlI ‘bIV’ ivc ies ‘vwr’ dI ‘bwxI’ dI ilKq nwloN ‘slok m: 3’ Awidk swry isr-lyK brIk, ilKq dy hn [ ies qoN AMdwzw ieh l`g skdw hY ik isr-lyKW vwsqy pihlW QW ^wlI rKI geI hY, iPr cMgI qrHW soD ky (ik slok TIk ausy hI gur-ivAkqI dy hn) ‘isr-lyK’ bwrIk klm nwl drj kIqy hn [ qwhIeyN ‘vwr’ dy mu`kx qy hwSIey qoN bwhr l&z ‘suDu’ iliKAw hY, Bwv ieh ik, Slok TIk isr-lyK vwly gur-ivAkqI dy hI hn; ieh g`l soD ky vyK leI hY [

The Sloks by Guru Amardass ji, Bhagt Kabir Ji are added in by Guru Arjun Ji sahib and certified SHUDH later on when totaling up them all at Vaar's end.

The Next Vaar Gujree Ki is also following the EXACT SAME numbering system.
Here is what Prof Sahib Singh ji has to say about this on Page 517 of His Guru Granth darpan.

vwr dI bxqr
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233
ieh ‘vwr’ gurU Arjn swihb dI rcI hoeI hY, ies ivc 21 ‘pauVIAW’ hn, hryk pauVI dy nwl do do Slok hn, swry SlokW dI igxqI 42 hY, qy ieh swry Slok BI gurU Arjn swihb dy hI hn [
hryk ‘pauVI’ ivc A`T A`T qukW hn, isr& pauVI nM: 20 ivc pMj qukW hn [ pihlI qy vIhvIN pauVI C`f ky bwkI swrIAW pauVIAW dy nwl vrqy hoey Slok do do qukW dy hn (dUjI pauVI dw pihlw Slok BI cwr qukW dw hY), iehnW 37 SlokW ivc lihMdI bolI dy l&z izAwdw imldy hn [ SlokW dI sWvI vMf, ieko ijhI ‘do-qukI’ bnwvt, ieko ijhw mzmUn, swry hI Slok qy pauVIAW ieko hI gur-ivAkqI dIAW—iehnW g`lW qoN suqy hI ieh Anumwn lwieAw jw skdw hY ik ieh ‘vwr’ qy ies dy nwl vrqy hoey ‘Slok’ ieko hI vkq dy aucwry hoey hn [ ‘Awsw dI vwr’ ivc ieh g`l nhIN hY, iek qW EQy SlokW dy mzmUn v`Ko-v`Kry hn, dUjy, pauVIAW nwl vrqy SlokW dI vMf sWvI nhIN hY, qIjy, keI pauVIAW nwl gurU nwnk swihb dw Awpxw aucwirAw hoieAw koeI Slok BI nhIN hY
I hope this helps clear any doubts. The NUMBERING SYSTEM is UNIQUE and certified Shudh by guru Ji himself.

Please dont make me "sharminda"....who is this nimanna gursikh to make any one "intelligent" or not. That is Guru Ji's Purview and Department Ji.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=5233

Thanks

Jarnail Singh Gyani.

drkhalsa · #9 (**permalink**) 27-Jul-2005, 04:55 AM

Dear Balbir ji

Sat Shri Akal

very very interesting viewpoint you have given but later part of ot , i could not understand well

Quote:

All what we realize as thought is just a step prior to the creation. One may go on thinking. The world will go on evaluating.

can you please explain a bit further

Akal Sahai

Jatinder Singh
The flow of energy gets reversed to realize Nirguna Parmeshwar. The thought process comes to rest.