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16-May-2012, 17:02 PM
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| |  | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
MANDEMEET Ji,
We can look the following Quotes carefully for understanding the entity/entitis in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as
ਥਿਤੀ ਗਉੜੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਮਹੀਅਲਿ ਪੂਰਿਆ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਸਿਰਜਨਹਾਰੁ ॥ ਅਨਿਕ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਹੋਇ ਪਸਰਿਆ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ pp296
The word EKKANKAAR is with a Matra of Aukad and is SINGULAR M/G whereas the word EKKANKAAR is without AUKAD and is PLURAL M/G.
ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਕਰੇ ਬਿਸਥਾਰੁ ॥ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਾ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ pp294
ਰਾਮਕਲੀ ਮਹਲਾ ੧ ॥ ਸਾਹਾ ਗਣਹਿ ਨ ਕਰਹਿ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਾਹੇ ਊਪਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ pp905
ਭੋਜਨੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਨਿਰੰਜਨ ਸਾਰੁ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਹੰਸੁ ਸਚੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਅਪਾਰ ॥ ਜਹ ਦੇਖਉ ਤਹ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥੫॥ pp227
ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ॥ ਸਰਬ ਗੁਣੀ ਸਾਚਾ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ ॥ pp905
ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਨੇੜੈ ਹਰਿ ਦੂਰਿ ਨ ਜਾਣਹੁ ਏਕੋ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਸਬਾਈ ॥ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਨਹੀ ਦੂਜਾ ਨਾਨਕ ਏਕੁ ਸਮਾਈ ॥੫॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 930}Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/38190-the-world-words-i-j-singh.htmlReference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190 Now you can see the most significant reference is the word with matra of AUKAD EKKANKAR(u). It is EKKANKAR(u) as PRABhu SINLE ULTIMATE ENTITY IN Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji............................................. EKKANKAR is the PLURAL entity of EKKANKARu. gurbanee connects us with the SINGULAY ULTIMATE entity . thru PLURAL entity of the same reference. Prakash.s.Bagga Do you agree or disagree with the writer above? Why not share your immediate thoughts with us! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views... Gurfateh!
Last edited by prakash.s.bagga; 16-May-2012 at 17:48 PM.
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16-May-2012, 19:13 PM
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
MANDEMEET Ji,
Here are few Gurbanee Quotes for the reference as TARANG(WAVES)
ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸੂਚੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ
pp354
ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਜਪਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਕਾਲੁ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190
pp367
ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਫਲ ਮੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ
pp848
॥ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਜਪਿਆ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਸਕਿਆ ॥ ਗੋਬਿਦੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਏ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਓ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਇਆ ॥੪॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 995}Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190
ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮੰਗਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥੭॥
pp1042
ਪਸਰਿਓ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ॥ ਲਖੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਰੰਗ
pp275
The above quotes sufficienly indicate the way one should understand Gurbanee.
Prakash.s.Bagga
Last edited by prakash.s.bagga; 16-May-2012 at 19:33 PM.
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17-May-2012, 19:26 PM
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga "Mandemeet ji Really it is very nice to go thru your post.Now I should be in a position to give answer to the best of my understanding. First of all I start with the GuR JoTi.
What is GuR JoTi this is nowhere defined in Gurbanee the way any one may think.One has to get its meaning from the knowkedge of the meanings of the word..
GuR......This is a Plural Mascu Gender or SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER”. | Respected Parkash Singh ji, I appreciate your efforts to address these words. Let us remove confusion first; if a word is singular Masculine gender, how it can be singular feminine gender too. Your this statement clearly is a double statement totally away from specific category of a word; that will also make its application broad not restricted. Let me make my expression simpler; a word, which is described by a grammarian as Plural Masculine gender, can also be used as Singular feminine; that is what you mean? If so, then most important factor in understanding the word is its “CONTEXT” not forms after all. I would appreciate if you give examples of Gur as Singular Musculine and Gur as Singular feminine. Kindly do not ignore this request. Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga So GuR is an entity to be refered as JOTi.The word JoTi is SINGULAR FEMININE
Gender and it is the reference for a WAVE” | I can agree with that. Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga So one can understand the meaning of GuR JOTi as A SINGLE WAVE being refered as GuR.” | A single wave of Gurjoti is called a single wave; I can agree with that too, but what is the origin of that single wave? You must define that too. Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga ”This GuR JoTi ialso appears in several Quotes in Gurbanee as GuRoo_GuR (Here the word GuRoo is GuR with matra of Dulakad under letter R)” | You mean where ever Guroo Gur words in a pair are used together in Gurbani, they refer to Gurjoti, am I write in understanding you?, If so, what is the difference between Gur (u) Gur(u) as a piar and Guroo Gur as a piar? Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga ”Therefore GuR is A SINGLE WAVE of the WORD GuRoo.” | When you say “a single way” of the word Guroo; you should also define what is “Guroo” is it referred to a Wave or many waves? If it is "many waves", what is its origin? Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga ”Let me know how you get this point of mine or if there is any variation we can clarify .Then I go ahead”. | Kindly answer my questions and then also proceed. With Regards mandemeet  |
17-May-2012, 19:36 PM
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga MANDEMEET Ji,
Understanding the use of words IK and EK as per grammar.
The words IK and EK both are Numerical Adjectives .These words are used to represent the entity in Number/Numbers.
The general grammar of these words is as under.
The word IK.........
As Iku................Singular and Masculine Gender
As IK...................PLURALand MASCULINE GENDER or
SINGULAR as FEMININE GENDER.
IKO.....................SINGULAR(pair of two Singular word)
Simialarly wehave same grammar for the word EK as
EKu.........................SINGULARand MASCULINE GENDER
EK............................PLURAL For MASCULINE GENDER and
SINGULAR for FEMININE GENDER
EKO.........................SINGULAR (pair of two Singular word)
Apart from these we also come across IKAA and EKAA both these words are SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER.
Making observations of the above pattern of words in application one can see that
SingularM/G word is used for M/G reference and SINGULAR F/G words are used for F/F reference.
Second entity is refered by SINGULAR M/G and PLURAL M/G words.
The above are general observations but exceptions are always there in any application We can take exceptions separately)
The above pattern is applicable with alost all Noun words based on the matra of Aukad /Dulakad or without Matra under last letter.
I shall post few quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as per above pattern to understand the meaing therefrom.
In the meantime I can tell you my general understanding othe meaning of the words IK and EK
The work IK is used to refer an entity as "only and specific ONE ("Out of Many specifics)
We shall share this with Quotes. | Without giving quotes, which can define eku iku ikk and other words, grammatical difference in their use doesn’t become clear. You should have selected some quotes to define their difference right here. What you have done is grammar structure of the words without application. It is like defining a noun without an example. This is the flaw in your explanation I have observed. Whenever, time comes to explain them with Gurbani quotes, you simply say you will give quotes. Why to put it off ? Shouldn’t we discuss one point before we proceed to the next point? I feel that will make easier to understand this new approach. I have defined the meaning of Ik(u); I have proved how one number is conveyed through Iku. You can prove my explanation incorrect with quote, I shall take it honorably.
Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga MANDEMEET Ji,
We can see How the entity is Different for SIngular and Plural words like Prabhu and Prabh.
The word Prabhu is SINGULAR M/G and PRABH is PLURAL M/G Considering that these SINGULAR and Plural words are for A Wave then we can see that the Word PRABhu Singular M/G is the reference for A SINGLE WORD of the WAVE and The Word PRABH PLURAL M/G is the reference for the complete WAVE | A wave but single wave; then a wave but complete Obviously the first wave is incomplete and the second is complete. The quotes about Har Prabhu and Har Prabh, I gave you earlier, do not fit in this explanation; that is the problem. If you can apply this explanation in those quotes, it will be better to understand it. Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga So we have two entities in Gurbanee for any WAVE of the Divine Word as
1...Singular m/G ..............for the Single word of the WAVE and
2...PLURAL m/G...............For the complete WAve of the word | What is the difference between a wave and a complete wave? Why? Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga If we consider the use of words as per Gender even then
!...Singular m/G ..............For the single word of the WAVE and
2...SINGULAR f/G.............For the complete WAVE | This appears “not applicable in the quotes I gave containing Har Prabhu and Har Prabh because the meaning is the same. If it is not, prove otherwise with quote, please. Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga You can apply this patttern of Grammar for any NOUN word in Gurbanee.
In view of above consideration we can see the reference meanings of the words
HARi PRABHu and HARi PRABH
Now a very important observation is that the word HARi is a very very special for its grammar consideration.And that consideration is that this is the onlly(As I know) word which is SINGULAR as well as PLURAL for masculine or feminine genders.
Whereas all other Noun words for Singular have a matra of Aukad and Plural without Matra of Aukad under its last word)
You prefer to write this word as HAR whereas I write as HAR(i) to indicate the matra of Sihahi with its last letter.How far your way of writing this word is justified I cannot understand. | We cannot write it in Roman as you write; “u” letter doesn’t stand for ounkud, you just have made it that way. I shall go with that. When we speak, again this form doesn’t sound separately as you know its pronunciation is Har not Hari Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga If you follow the same style of avoiding the matra of Aukad how one should be able to understand the entity.Since you are eliminating the matra of Aukad from Noun words that is why you cant make out the difference in the references of two entities as per matra.. | You can figure out all this when you read Gurbani in original lipi, Gurmukhi and interpret it in English but Roman just cannot do justice to such forms. So don’t stick to it and keep explaining as you write these words, I shall accept that. Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga You can notice the application of the words with Matra of AUKAD and Without AUKAD as
1....GuRu SATi GuRu and GuR SATiGuR
2...GuRu Narayanu and GuR Narayan
3...GuRu Gobindu and GuR Gobind
4...GuRu NANAKu and GuR NANAKThe above pattern clearly indicates that the words are properly used as per Gender of the reference as well as entity.
Now if you eliminate and dont take into consideration oft he matra of Aukad in relation of entity you are going to say that both entities are same.But if the purpose of matra of Aukad is understood then understanding is different.This is what makes the difference. | In concept of Ekankar, there is no various entities as you refer; these vowels may address Ekankar’s virtues (powers or waves or whatever you feel to address these virtues) but not call them entities. This will be the biggest distortion coming at your hands. As per your own words, there is a wave, and there is a complete wave; you must define their origin. There are many things made of matter but we accept the matter as the origin of the things. Entities are incorrectly misunderstood by you as I see you looking at various words. I shall prove that. Whenever singular verb follows with such words, they define it as single With regards mandemeet |
17-May-2012, 19:48 PM
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga MANDEMEET Ji,
Here are few Gurbanee Quotes for the reference as TARANG(WAVES)
ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ਭਗਤਿ ਹਰਿ ਰੰਗਾ ॥ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਸੂਚੇ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਣ ਸੰਗਾ ॥ ਮਿਥਿਆ ਜਨਮੁ ਸਾਕਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ ਰਾਮ ਭਗਤਿ ਜਨੁ ਰਹੈ ਨਿਰਾਰਾ” | Respected Parkash Singh ji,
In above quote, there is no mention of Ekankaar waves; anant trang are referred to the feelings of Bhagat (Subject) in the love of Har (Hari), an object. Wherever you see this word “trang”, don’t conclude it is for waves of Har (Hari) Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥ pp354
ਜਪਿ ਜਪਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਲਾਹੀ ਮਾਰਿਆ ਕਾਲੁ ਜਮਕੰਕਰ ਭੁਇਅੰਗਾ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ pp367
ਸੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸਦ ਹੀ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਪਾਈਅਹਿ ਫਲ ਮੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ ॥ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਰਣਾਗਤੀ ਜਪਿ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੇ ਰਾਮ pp848
ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗੀ ਨਾਮੁ ਜਿਨ ਜਪਿਆ ਮੈ ਗਣਤ ਨ ਕਰਿ ਸਕਿਆ ॥
ਗੋਬਿਦੁ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਕਰੇ ਥਾਇ ਪਾਏ ਜੋ ਹਰਿ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਨਿ ਭਾਇਆ ॥
ਗੁਰਿ ਧਾਰਿ ਕ੍ਰਿਪਾ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਦ੍ਰਿੜਾਇਓ ਜਨ ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮੁ ਲਇਆ ॥੪॥੨॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 995}
ਭਗਤਿ ਹੇਤਿ ਗੁਰ ਸਬਦਿ ਤਰੰਗਾ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਜਸੁ ਨਾਮੁ ਪਦਾਰਥੁ ਮੰਗਾ ॥
ਹਰਿ ਭਾਵੈ ਗੁਰ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਏ ਹਰਿ ਤਾਰੇ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥੭॥ pp1042
ਪਸਰਿਓ ਆਪਿ ਹੋਇ ਅਨਤ ਤਰੰਗ ॥
ਲਖੇ ਨ ਜਾਹਿ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਕੇ ਰੰਗ pp275
The above quotes sufficienly indicate the way one should understand Gurbanee. | This is not the issue we disagree on. I already expressed how Har (Hari) is expended in waves defined by Guru Arjun Dev Ji. You could have given quotes defining Gur Joti/Prabh joti or Ikk Iku, eko ekas which could have defined the different meanings in their different grammatical appearances.
If Gurjoti is not defined in verses and we have to understand that through the words used to indicate that Gurjoti, we can do that, but carefully you look what you are heading too. You have given many quotes of Gurbani defining Ekankaar’s presence in waves and you start creating entities of Ekankaar instead of accepting all these waves as the virtues of Ekankar whom you accept as one supreme Entity; here is your quote Quote: |
Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga “I may bring to your kind attention that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is SINGLE ULTIMATE or SUPREME entity and that entity is PRABHu.This entity is well defined.” | You call it Prabh (u) Or Ekankaar Or Waheguru; it doesn’t matter (as our Gurus and Bhagatas have used many words for that supreme entity “PRABHU") but entity is ONE. What is that word in Punjabi that defines this “ONE” number? Be kind enough to answer this question. Last not the least, I highly grateful to you for opening up and defining how you look at Gurbani. With regards mandemeet |
17-May-2012, 21:22 PM
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
MANDEMEET Ji,
Well I have tried to tell you frankly how I understand Gurbanee words as per grammar.of the words. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190
I do admit there are always exceptions to the general rule being applicable at large.You should appreciate the fact that exceptions never become the Rule.
When I present you a general aspect you bring into exceptions that this can be like this.
My dear MANDEMEET ji I can tell you very frankl;y that Numerical Number in the Symbol is not to tell Something as ONE.It has more deeper relation with GuR JoTi .to understand the significance of Numerical Number.
Since this is not clarified in Gurbanee openly but there seems to be a possibility of understanding this from certain combinations of the words .
Try to understand what should be the meaning of the combinations for GuRoo-GuR and GuRu-GuR. where GuRoo and GuRu are SINGULAR words whereas GuR is PLURAL for GuRoo and GuRu words.
Now you dont ask me that I should elaborate this .I want this excercise at your end so you can develop your own understanding. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190
Gurbanee understanding is a very slow process and ultimate is the grace of GuRu.
I can simply present my observations I may be too wrong in interprating the same
I do accept this.
With best wishes
Prakash.s.Bagga | | The following member appreciates prakash.s.bagga Ji for the above message. | |
17-May-2012, 21:38 PM
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| |  | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
Quote: |
....I can tell you very frankl;y that Numerical Number in the Symbol is not to tell Something as ONE.It has more deeper relation.......
| I totally agree with you, Prakash Ji. |
17-May-2012, 22:18 PM
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroboy  I totally agree with you, Prakash Ji. |
Thanks,Astroboy Ji
Prakash.S.Bagga |
18-May-2012, 00:35 AM
| | ਨਾਮ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੀ ਜੋਤਿ ਲਗਾਈ (Previously namjap) | | | Enrolled: Jul 14th, 2007
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| | | | | Re: The World of Words by I J Singh
Prakash Ji,
Giani Sant Singh Maskeen speaks words of wisdom. I enjoyed it and hope you and others will like it. Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190 | 
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