The World of Words by I J Singh

prakash.s.bagga · #10 (**permalink**) 15-May-2012, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandemeet

Respected Parkash Singh ji,

Thank for your response.

Ikkankar word I used to identify our Guru’s given expression of Wahiguru (you may right it Wahiguroo) on 276, I agree fully with you that it is there as Ekankar not ikkankar in Sri Guru Granth Sahib;

ਸਦਾਸਦਾਇਕੁਏਕੰਕਾਰ॥
Saḏā saḏā ik ekankār 276

Now look how the Guru defines Ekkankaar as Ikk

ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਖਾਣੀ ਅਰੁ ਖੰਡ॥
ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਅਕਾਸ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡ॥
ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਹੋਏ ਅਵਤਾਰ॥
ਕਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਕੀਨੋ ਬਿਸਥਾਰ॥
ਕਈ ਬਾਰ ਪਸਰਿਓ ਪਾਸਾਰ॥
ਸਦਾ ਸਦਾ ਇਕੁ ਏਕੰਕਾਰ॥
ਕਈ ਕੋਟਿ ਕੀਨੇ ਬਹੁ ਭਾਤਿ॥
ਪ੍ਰਭ ਤੇ ਹੋਏ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਮਾਹਿ ਸਮਾਤਿ॥
ਤਾ ਕਾ ਅੰਤੁ ਨ ਜਾਨੈ ਕੋਇ॥
ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਸੋਇ॥੭॥
Ka▫ī kot kẖāṇī ar kẖand.
Ka▫ī kot akās barahmand.
Ka▫ī kot ho▫e avṯār.
Ka▫ī jugaṯ kīno bisthār.
Ka▫ī bār pasri▫o pāsār.
Saḏā saḏā ik ekankār.
Ka▫ī kot kīne baho bẖāṯ.
Parabẖ ṯe ho▫e parabẖ māhi samāṯ.
Ŧā kā anṯ na jānai ko▫e.
Āpe āp Nānak parabẖ so▫e. ||7||

There are many millions of creations and regions; there are many millions the skies and the solar systems. There have been many millions of avtaras. Almighty has expended His creation in many ways .Many times Prabh expended His expansion but Prabh ever remains the one. Many millions are created in various forms; they emanate from Prabh (“Ekkankaar” who is IKK) and into Him they merge. Nobody can describe Prabh’s limit; Nanak says that Prabh is all Himself

ਖਾਣੀ = ਸਾਰੇਜਗਤ-ਜੀਵਾਂਦੀਉਤਪੱਤੀਦੇਚਾਰਵਸੀਲੇ (ਖਾਣਾਂ) ਮੰਨੇਗਏਹਨ, "ਅੰਡਜ", ਅੰਡੇਤੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਣਜੀਵ; "ਜੇਰਜ", ਜਿਓਰਤੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਣਵਾਲੇ; "ਸੇਤਜ" ਮੁੜ੍ਹਕੇਤੋਂਅਤੇ "ਉਤਭੁਜ", ਪਾਣੀਦੀਰਾਹੀਂਧਰਤੀਵਿਚੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਣਵਾਲੇ।ਅਰੁ = ਅਤੇ।ਖੰਡ = ਸਾਰੀਧਰਤੀਦੇਨੌਹਿੱਸੇਜਾਂਨੌਖੰਡਮੰਨੇਗਏਹਨ।ਕਈਜੁਗਤਿ =ਕਈਜੁਗਤੀਆਂਨਾਲ।ਪਸਰਿਓ = ਖਿਲਾਰਿਆਹੈ।ਪਾਸਾਰ = {Skt. प्रसारः} ਖਿਲਾਰਾ।ਭਾਤਿ = ਕਿਸਮ।ਸਮਾਤਿ = ਲੀਨਹੋਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।ਅਵਤਾਰ = ਪੈਦਾਕੀਤੇਹੋਏਜੀਵ।੭।

(ਧਰਤੀਦੇਨੌ) ਖੰਡਾਂ (ਚਹੁੰਆਂ) ਖਾਣੀਆਂਦੀਰਾਹੀਂਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਜੀਵਉਤਪੰਨਹੋਏਹਨ, ਸਾਰੇਆਕਾਸ਼ਾਂਬ੍ਰਹਮੰਡਾਂਵਿਚਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਜੀਵਹਨ; ਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਪ੍ਰਾਣੀਪੈਦਾਹੋਰਹੇਹਨ; ਕਈਤਰੀਕਿਆਂਨਾਲਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੇਜਗਤਦੀਰਚਨਾਕੀਤੀਹੈ; (ਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੇ) ਕਈਵਾਰੀਜਗਤ-ਰਚਨਾਕੀਤੀਹੈ, (ਮੁੜਇਸਨੂੰਸਮੇਟਕੇ) ਸਦਾ-ਇਕਆਪਹੀਹੋਜਾਂਦਾਹੈ; ਪ੍ਰਭੂਨੇਕਈਕਿਸਮਾਂਦੇਕਰੋੜਾਂਹੀਜੀਵਪੈਦਾਕੀਤੇਹੋਏਹਨ, ਜੋਪ੍ਰਭੂਤੋਂਪੈਦਾਹੋਕੇਫਿਰਪ੍ਰਭੂਵਿਚਲੀਨਹੋਜਾਂਦੇਹਨ।ਉਸਪ੍ਰਭੂਦਾਅੰਤਕੋਈਬੰਦਾਨਹੀਂਜਾਣਦਾ; (ਕਿਉਂਕਿ) ਹੇਨਾਨਕ! ਉਹਪ੍ਰਭੂ (ਆਪਣੇਵਰਗਾ) ਆਪਹੀਆਪਹੈ।੭।

Above verses strongly connect the dots you are trying to put, but slightly differently; Gur Jyoti works through human beings and Prabh jyoti is pervading, but the origin is “Ikk”, what? Ekankaar/Prabh. Kindly also note it down, there is no ounkud after R of Ekankaar; I mean, it is not Ekankaar (u) but Ekkanakar. Using Ikk with Ekankaar without ounkud, the Guru has expressed the oneness of Prabh/ Wahiguru, What you are saying is also explained by the Guru ( also can be called Gur Jyoti) to make us understand how Akalpurakh exists, but it is a little different than what you say. That is another reason, you don’t see “Prabh Jyoti and Gur Jyoti in Sri Guru Granth Sahib many times.There is not many entities; the waves of the source cannot divide the source; you should not question oneness of “ Ekankaar” whom the Guru addressed as “Ikk”, it is made clear once for all that Prabh is one who has creating power, destroying power, cherishing power, pervading power and guiding power; I am taking what is defined in above verses; I feel you forget that water and its rising wave are or cannot be not different; to guide us, it is His wave “Gurjyoti,” and Prabh jyoti contains Gurjyoti as well, because the source is the same; you should bear this in your mind; let us see how Ekankaar ( Ikk) exists; see on 275

ਪਸਰਿਓਆਪਿਹੋਇਅਨਤਤਰੰਗ॥
Pasri▫o āp ho▫e anaṯ ṯarang
Ekankaar is expended in endless waves

MANDEMEET Ji,
I fully appreciate and agree with your last four lines of the above meassge.
The Source of GuR JOTi and Prabh JoTi is A SINGLE WORD ..GuRoo itself.Once you can understand this your above Quotes should become more clear.

Secondly Howmany times you find AKALPURAKH word in Gurbanee.This word is also in SINGULAR As AKALPURAHu
Therefore AKALPURAKHu is not reference for any separate entity than GuR ?Prabhu JoTi itself. I appreciate below you have clarified this.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Whenever you define these words, you must keep in mind that it only “Ekankaar” who is IKK not two or three; that is why Guru Nanak dismisses three enteritis of Hinduism in Japji on 7. Let me give another example to understand its subtlety. There is soil, from soil, pots are made and there is the soil that creates lives by providing necessary needs for the seeds; still, it remains the “soil” None is there but Ekkankaar. There is no duality. If Gur Jyoti is referred, it is Akalpurakh, when Prabh Jyoti is referred, it is Akalpurakh. Our Gurus and Bhagatas have led us to Ekkankar who is Ikk (one) Kindly read on 36 for example

ਹਰਿਇਕੋਦਾਤਾਵਰਤਦਾਦੂਜਾਅਵਰੁਨਕੋਇ॥
Har iko ḏāṯā varaṯḏā ḏūjā avar na ko▫e.
Har, the Giver, is pervading; there is none other but Har.

MANDEJEET SINGH Ji,

In above message the most important word for proper understanding is the word IKO.
Generally we consider its meaning as None Other or some may consider this as one only.
You may notice the meaning of the word IKO is very different and is very interesting.In fact the word IKO is the reference for apair as <IKu.IKu> just as the the word EKO is refered as <EKu.EKu>.
Here comes the role of knowing the gramar of Gurbanee words otherwise you may not be interprating the message as per GuRu view.

Prakash.S.Bagga

If you look at an Ashtpadee of Guru Amar Das on 832 start with

“ਜਗੁਕਊਆ ਮੁਖਿ ਚੁੰਚ ਗਿਆਨੁ॥“.
Jag ka▫ū▫ā mukẖ cẖuncẖ gi▫ān.
Grammar exceptions about Naam (u), are made in a big way.There are indeed pairs but there is more than pairs, look at 180

ਨਿਮਖ ਨਿਮਖ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਧਿਆਉ ॥
Nimakẖ nimakẖ har har har ḏẖi▫ā▫o.

I suggest you to look it carefully every word at Ashtpadee on 832; next time I will try to interpret it if you feel so. I agree with you that what you have been saying carries weight but that alone doesn’t define totality of our Guru teachings.

With Regards
mandemeet

This I have clrified you in a separate post.
Once again I fully appreciate your understanding.We may deviate sightly here and there that is fine but we should not be deviating from the core spritual messages of Gurbanee related to NAAMu.
Prakash.s.Bagga

mandemeet · #11 (**permalink**) 15-May-2012, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

So in Banee Sukhmani we clearly get EKANKAAR as IKu EKANKAAR. (not as IKK).
Most of the times you can find the word EKANKAARu as SINGULAR M/G thru out Gurbanee.
Prakash.S.Bagga

Respected Parkash Singh ji,

Ikk or Iku, the meaning is the same; actually your use of “U” ruins it; there is no way we can write ਇਕੁ in Roman. Have you heard Babu Singh; you see how u is pronounced in Babu; use of U is not right either. You must look at the meaning of ਇਕੁ as number that conveys oneness, like "Tuhada ikk (Iku) gun changa hai ke tusin shanseel ho (you have a quality of remaining tolerant). Sometimes this uonkud is used to just give stress. Here in the quote that stress is well explained with ounkud. I feel, you are restricting yourself on this by ignoring its meaning. Also by the way, Gurbani stresses on hearing Naam/Prabh/ praise of Har as well; when we hear ਇਕੁ , we don’t feel uonkud pronounced. It is never done.

Let us assume, I am wrong and you are right, interpret the quote that contains ਇਕੁ as per your observation of grammar of this word; if you come up with different meaning, I will look at that. Remember, I referred an ashtpadee at 832, here is one verse from that, which rules out your stand on specific forms of the word to be correct all the time

On 832

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਚੀਤਿ॥
ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਚੇਤਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਝੂਠੁ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
Saṯgur sev nām vasai man cẖīṯ.
Gur bẖete har nām cẖeṯāvai bin nāvai hor jẖūṯẖ parīṯ. ||1|| rahā▫o.

By serving Satiguru, Naam abides in the heart; if the Guru is met, he makes the seeker to utter Har Naam; without Har’s Name, other love is false. Pause

First verse says that through Satiguru Naam abides in the heart.

Second verse says that when the Guru is met, he makes the seeker to do what? To utter Har Naam

The Guru continues addressing Naam
The second part of this verse says that without Har’s name, all other love is false.
Now the Guru refers to Naam as the”Name” of Har he already advocated.
This Ashatpadee doesn’t restrict words to their forms, kindly read the entire ashatpadee, you will realize that.

Kindly let me know why the Guru says First Naam, then Har Naam and then without “Name”?
With regards
mandemeet

mandemeet · #12 (**permalink**) 15-May-2012, 09:03 AM

Respected Parkash Singh ji
I feel you have some valid points to be taken seriously, but you are also become stagnant in understanding Gurbani. When the words you point out to be reconsidered as vital in understanding Gurbani, you forget how those words are also used with exceptions. I agree with you and I also strongly disagree with you when with your strict rule, it becomes utterly hard to understand Gurbani.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

ਨਿਮਖਨਿਮਖਹਰਿਹਰਿਹਰਿਧਿਆਉ॥
Nimakẖ nimakẖ har har har ḏẖi▫ā▫o.
HaRi HARi HARi means HARi as <HARi.HARi> here the first word is addressed for Prabhu and the pair of the word HARi as NAAMu of Prabhu."

Alright, why below Har Har is also looked as Har nectar that Har becomes? (I refer to Japji to understand this verse)

ਹਰਿਹਰਿਹਰਿਰਸੁਆਪਿਹੈਆਪੇਹਰਿਰਸੁਹੋਇ॥
Har har har ras āp hai āpe har ras ho▫e.

ਆਪੇਹਰਿਰਸੁਹੋਇ, look at this.

Let me give another example how the Guru takes exception from restricting words

On 41
ਹਉਸਤਿਗੁਰਵਿਟਹੁਵਾਰਿਆਜਿਨਿਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭੁਦੀਆਦਿਖਾਇ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
Ha▫o saṯgur vitahu vāri▫ā jin har parabẖ ḏī▫ā ḏikẖā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Har Prabh (with ounkud)

On 95
ਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰਸੁਆਮੀਮਿਲਿਸਤਿਗੁਰਹਰਿਰਸੁਕੀਚੈਜੀਉ॥੧॥
Har parabẖ agam agocẖar su▫āmī mil saṯgur har ras kīcẖai jī▫o. ||1||
Har Prabh (without ounkud)

In both above verses, Har Prabh and Har Prabh(u) are used for the same entity. Why?

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

From Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji we can learn that Gurbanee is being refered as SABAD TARANG that is the waves of Divine words"

Kindly give me example from Sri Guru Granth Sahib after leaving an example of Bhatt Ballya’s verse (on 1404) because that doesn’t state what you say.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

The Source of GuR JOTi and Prabh JoTi is A SINGLE WORD ..GuRoo itself.Once you can understand this your above Quotes should become more clear.

Kindly prove it through Gurbani quotes, a single quote will do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Secondly How many times you find AKALPURAKH word in Gurbanee.

I have used Akalpurakh for Prabh, you say Akalpurakh is not used often in Gurbani, but you forget that the words on which you are building your understanding do not exist exactly in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; for example Prabh jyoti and Gur jyoti are not used to define Ekkankar/Akalpurakh/Prabh at all. Yes, Gur jyoti is referred in context of Human Gurus transferring their jyoti as a Guru to another (1409). You should give examples from Gurbani as I give because you say what you say is all from Gurbani. What I am saying that you are splitting hair; it doesn’t matter how many times “Akalpurakh” is used for Prabh, does it?. Sir,You don’t pick on words and lower their significance in context of other words; you should focus on what is being discussed.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

This word is also in SINGULAR As AKALPURAHu

NO sir, it is also used without ounkud, look on 212

ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਅਗਾਧਿਬੋਧ॥
Akāl purakẖ agāḏẖ boḏẖ

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Therefore AKALPURAKHu is not reference for any separate entity than GuR ?Prabhu JoTi itself;"

With respect, I disagree. Akalpurakh is used in context of Prabh. Prabh Jyoti is not found defined as you claim in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, if it does, kindly give me a quote, I will love to see that.

With regards,
mandemeet

prakash.s.bagga · #13 (**permalink**) 15-May-2012, 23:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandemeet

Respected Parkash Singh ji
I feel you have some valid points to be taken seriously, but you are also become stagnant in understanding Gurbani. When the words you point out to be reconsidered as vital in understanding Gurbani, you forget how those words are also used with exceptions. I agree with you and I also strongly disagree with you when with your strict rule, it becomes utterly hard to understand Gurbani.

Alright, why below Har Har is also looked as Har nectar that Har becomes? (I refer to Japji to understand this verse)

ਹਰਿਹਰਿਹਰਿਰਸੁਆਪਿਹੈਆਪੇਹਰਿਰਸੁਹੋਇ॥
Har har har ras āp hai āpe har ras ho▫e.

ਆਪੇਹਰਿਰਸੁਹੋਇ, look at this.

Let me give another example how the Guru takes exception from restricting words

On 41
ਹਉਸਤਿਗੁਰਵਿਟਹੁਵਾਰਿਆਜਿਨਿਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭੁਦੀਆਦਿਖਾਇ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
Ha▫o saṯgur vitahu vāri▫ā jin har parabẖ ḏī▫ā ḏikẖā▫e. ||1|| rahā▫o.
Har Prabh (with ounkud)

On 95
ਹਰਿਪ੍ਰਭਅਗਮਅਗੋਚਰਸੁਆਮੀਮਿਲਿਸਤਿਗੁਰਹਰਿਰਸੁਕੀਚੈਜੀਉ॥੧॥
Har parabẖ agam agocẖar su▫āmī mil saṯgur har ras kīcẖai jī▫o. ||1||
Har Prabh (without ounkud)

In both above verses, Har Prabh and Har Prabh(u) are used for the same entity. Why?

MANDEMEET Ji,

It would be better if we know what we is the entity we talk about.?

If you can let me know about your understanding about the grammar of Gurbanee words with and without matra of Aukad under last letter then it would be easy for me to clarify you any point.

You can post your understanding about the complete grammar of the word HARi.

As I understand HARiPRABh and HARiPRABh(u) are two different entities.

On hearing your grammatical understanding of the word HARi I can share to the above point.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Kindly give me example from Sri Guru Granth Sahib after leaving an example of Bhatt Ballya’s verse (on 1404) because that doesn’t state what you say.

Why this should be left aside.? Any reason

Prakash.S.Bagga

Kindly prove it through Gurbani quotes, a single quote will do.

There are several quotes in Gurbanee telling about the waves of Gurbanee words.This I can post one by one for your reference.

I have used Akalpurakh for Prabh, you say Akalpurakh is not used often in Gurbani, but you forget that the words on which you are building your understanding do not exist exactly in Sri Guru Granth Sahib; for example Prabh jyoti and Gur jyoti are not used to define Ekkankar/Akalpurakh/Prabh at all. Yes, Gur jyoti is referred in context of Human Gurus transferring their jyoti as a Guru to another (1409). You should give examples from Gurbani as I give because you say what you say is all from Gurbani. What I am saying that you are splitting hair; it doesn’t matter how many times “Akalpurakh” is used for Prabh, does it?. Sir,You don’t pick on words and lower their significance in context of other words; you should focus on what is being discussed.

NO sir, it is also used without ounkud, look on 212

ਅਕਾਲਪੁਰਖਅਗਾਧਿਬੋਧ॥
Akāl purakẖ agāḏẖ boḏẖ

With respect, I disagree. Akalpurakh is used in context of Prabh. Prabh Jyoti is not found defined as you claim in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, if it does, kindly give me a quote, I will love to see that.

With regards,
mandemeet

The references GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi are self defined only you are required to know the meaning of the word JoTi.Then you can define yourself.

I may bring to your kind attention that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is SINGLE ULTIMATE or SUPREME entity and that entity is PRABHu.This entity is well defined.
You should look for this entity.This is very important. In fact we should develop the understanding of Gurbanee w.r.t this Ultmate Entity PRABHu only.

Secondly I certainly agree that Akalpurakh is the reference for Prabh so the Akalpurakhu is the reference for Prabhu .This is because Prabhu and Prabh are two entities for Prabh JoTi

Thanks for your nice interaction.Hope to continue with your goodself.

Prakash.s.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga · #14 (**permalink**) 15-May-2012, 23:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mandemeet

Respected Parkash Singh ji,

Ikk or Iku, the meaning is the same; actually your use of “U” ruins it; there is no way we can write ਇਕੁ in Roman. Have you heard Babu Singh; you see how u is pronounced in Babu; use of U is not right either. You must look at the meaning of ਇਕੁ as number that conveys oneness, like "Tuhada ikk (Iku) gun changa hai ke tusin shanseel ho (you have a quality of remaining tolerant). Sometimes this uonkud is used to just give stress. Here in the quote that stress is well explained with ounkud. I feel, you are restricting yourself on this by ignoring its meaning. Also by the way, Gurbani stresses on hearing Naam/Prabh/ praise of Har as well; when we hear ਇਕੁ , we don’t feel uonkud pronounced. It is never done.

MANDEJEET Ji,
This is the way we have been trained since our child hood that is why we avoid probably to think this differently and understand accordingly..

Prakash.S.Bagga

Let us assume, I am wrong and you are right, interpret the quote that contains ਇਕੁ as per your observation of grammar of this word; if you come up with different meaning, I will look at that. Remember, I referred an ashtpadee at 832, here is one verse from that, which rules out your stand on specific forms of the word to be correct all the time

On 832

ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਸੇਵਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨਿ ਚੀਤਿ॥
ਗੁਰੁ ਭੇਟੇ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਚੇਤਾਵੈ ਬਿਨੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰ ਝੂਠੁ ਪਰੀਤਿ ॥੧॥ਰਹਾਉ॥
Saṯgur sev nām vasai man cẖīṯ.
Gur bẖete har nām cẖeṯāvai bin nāvai hor jẖūṯẖ parīṯ. ||1|| rahā▫o.

By serving Satiguru, Naam abides in the heart; if the Guru is met, he makes the seeker to utter Har Naam; without Har’s Name, other love is false. Pause

First verse says that through Satiguru Naam abides in the heart.

Second verse says that when the Guru is met, he makes the seeker to do what? To utter Har Naam

The Guru continues addressing Naam
The second part of this verse says that without Har’s name, all other love is false.
Now the Guru refers to Naam as the”Name” of Har he already advocated.
This Ashatpadee doesn’t restrict words to their forms, kindly read the entire ashatpadee, you will realize that.

Kindly let me know why the Guru says First Naam, then Har Naam and then without “Name”?
With regards
mandemeet

What about the word EKu/EK in Gurbanee..You compare the quotes in Gurbanee with words IKu./Ik and EKu/EK I am sure you are going to realise something different.
Prakash.S.Bagga

mandemeet · #15 (**permalink**) 16-May-2012, 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

The references GuR JoTi and Prabh JoTi are self defined only you are required to know the meaning of the word JoTi.Then you can define yourself.

Respected Parkash Singh jio
Why only I am required? Isn’t it you who have brought this? Bringing in this new approach and running away is not right. Kindly do not run away from your responsibility; you say what you say is out of Gurbani; kindly define it as per Gurbani. I have searched and haven’t found these words to define what you are talking about. If I am ignorant, you must help me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

“I may bring to your kind attention that in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji there is SINGLE ULTIMATE or SUPREME entity and that entity is PRABHu.This entity is well defined.”

I never said opposite to this statement of yours on this site in any way rather I stressed on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

You should look for this entity.This is very important. In fact we should develop the understanding of Gurbanee w.r.t this Ultmate Entity PRABHu only.

That is what I have been saying; it is you who are giving different names of Prabh’s waves and create duality.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Secondly I certainly agree that Akalpurakh is the reference for Prabh so the Akalpurakhu is the reference for Prabhu .This is because Prabhu and Prabh are two entities for Prabh JoTi”

I am glad you have agreed, but you were saying,” how many times “Akalpurakh” is used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib” and I questioned the validity of your question. You should have realized that but you haven’t.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Thanks for your nice interaction.Hope to continue with your goodself.

Sir, how can I do that when you respond to my posts in your own statements lacking any proof from Gurbani? Your purpose of bringing this new approach is to share with others and define what others miss. You are not doing that. Instead, you tell,” It is not Ikk, it is Iku” and never take a responsibility to define the difference of Iku and Ikk as per Gurbani. Look at your response below:

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

”What about the word EKu/EK in Gurbanee..You compare the quotes in Gurbanee with words IKu./Ik and EKu/EK I am sure you are going to realise something different.”

I have looked at it and I asked you to define the separate meaning of Iku, Ik, because I don’t find it and you are not giving it, why not? What you are saying if that affects the meaning, you should do that as you have explained in your post earlier that in the use of “Har Har Har” through one Har, the Guru means “ the name of Har is “Har Har”. I agreed. I have noticed that you question Gurbani interpreters for their negligence in recognizing Grammar while interpreting Gurbani; unfortunately, you do not bring up your interpretation that can be compared with their negligence. If I just say, “ it is there, you find it, it is there, you find it” will you call it a good interaction”?
I commented on your post first time by noticing that while explaining something you pull back; while interacting with me, you are doing the same thing. Look at my posts and see how I bring some points to your attention with Gurbani quotes and then look at your reactions; they are “simple your own statements lacking support from Gurbani or there is questioning about not much used word “Akalpurakh” or “it is Iku not Ikk Let me do one more effort how Iku (as you like to write) conveys the meaning of one

On 437
ਆਦਿਪੁਰਖਿਇਕੁਚਲਤੁਦਿਖਾਇਆਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹਸੋਈ॥
Āḏ purakẖ ik cẖalaṯ ḏikẖā▫i▫ā jah ḏekẖā ṯah so▫ī.

ਆਦਿਪੁਰਖਿ Akalpurakh NE, let me use the word you like to use Prabh Ne

ਇਕ ੁ = one, why it means one, the next word will prove it

ਚਲਤੁ = play (singular as t has ounkud at the end)

ਦਿਖਾਇਆ = is shown (verb for singular subject; if it were for many, it would have been “dikhaye”

ਜਹਦੇਖਾਤਹ = where I see

ਤਹਸੋਈ He (who? Aad Purakh)

ਇਕ ੁ Iku has conveyed meaning of one

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

It would be better if we know what we is the entity we talk about.?

We talk about Ekkankar

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

If you can let me know about your understanding about the grammar of Gurbanee words with and without matra of Aukad under last letter then it would be easy for me to clarify you any point.
You can post your understanding about the complete grammar of the word HARi. On hearing your grammatical understanding of the word HARi I can share to the above point

I look at Har (you write Hari), as Ekankaar; first of all, you kindly answer the questions. Ounkud makes the word singular but sometimes, its use appears to be exception. Without Ounkud, the word is plural; again there is exception

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

As I understand HARiPRABh and HARiPRABh(u) are two different entities

As I see them in context of the entire shabda, they are no different entities; kindly prove it by interpreting the verses

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

Kindly give me example from Sri Guru Granth Sahib after leaving an example of Bhatt Ballya’s verse (on 1404) because that doesn’t state what you say.
Why this should be left aside.? Any reason””

Kindly read carefully; I explained it already; that verse is said in context of fourth and fifth Guru (human Guru not in the way you express Gurjyoti
Here it is

ਰਾਮਦਾਸਿਗੁਰੂਜਗਤਾਰਨਕਉਗੁਰਜੋਤਿਅਰਜੁਨਮਾਹਿਧਰੀ॥੪॥
Rāmḏās gurū jag ṯāran ka▫o gur joṯ arjun māhi ḏẖarī. ||4||
What your specific useful observation I see in Gurbani, I applaud that, but other things you are saying are hard to find in Gurbani as I have tried and you are not helping either this ignorant person.

With warm regards
mandemeet

prakash.s.bagga · #16 (**permalink**) 16-May-2012, 13:37 PM

MANDEMEET Ji,
Really it is very nice to go thru your post.Now I should be in a position to give answer to the best of my understanding. First of all I start with the GuR JoTi.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurmat-vichaar/38190-the-world-words-i-j-singh.html

What is GuR JoTi this is nowhere defined in Gurbanee the way any one may think.One has to get its meaning from the knowkedge of the meanings of the word..
GuR......This is a Plural Mascu Gender or SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER.
So GuR is an entity to be refered as JOTi.The word JoTi is SINGULAR FEMININE
Gender and it is the reference for a WAVE

So one can understand the meaning of GuR JOTi as A SINGLE WAVE being
refered as GuR.
This GuR JoTi ialso appears in several Quotes in Gurbanee as GuRoo_GuR
(Here the word GuRoo is GuR with matra of Dulakad under letter R)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190

Therefore GuR is A SINGLE WAVE of the WORD GuRoo.
Let me know how you get this point of mine or if there is any variation
we can clarify .Then I go ahead.

Prakash.s.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga · #17 (**permalink**) 16-May-2012, 15:09 PM

MANDEMEET Ji,
Understanding the use of words IK and EK as per grammar.
.................................................. ...................................

The words IK and EK both are Numerical Adjectives .These words are used to represent the entity in Number/Numbers.
The general grammar of these words is as under.

The word IK.........
As Iku................Singular and Masculine Gender

As IK...................PLURALand MASCULINE GENDER or
SINGULAR as FEMININE GENDER.

IKO.....................SINGULAR(pair of two Singular word)

Simialarly wehave same grammar for the word EK as

EKu.........................SINGULARand MASCULINE GENDER
EK............................PLURAL For MASCULINE GENDER and
SINGULAR for FEMININE GENDER
EKO.........................SINGULAR (pair of two Singular word)

Apart from these we also come across IKAA and EKAA both these words are SINGULAR FEMININE GENDER.

Making observations of the above pattern of words in application one can see that
SingularM/G word is used for M/G reference and SINGULAR F/G words are used for F/F reference.

Second entity is refered by SINGULAR M/G and PLURAL M/G words.

The above are general observations but exceptions are always there in any application We can take exceptions separately)

The above pattern is applicable with alost all Noun words based on the matra of Aukad /Dulakad or without Matra under last letter.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190

I shall post few quotes from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as per above pattern to understand the meaing therefrom.
In the meantime I can tell you my general understanding othe meaning of the words IK and EK
The work IK is used to refer an entity as "only and specific ONE ("Out of Many specifics)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190

The word EK is used to refer the entity as "Any ONE " (Out of Many ones)

We shall share this with Quotes.

Prakash.S.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga · #18 (**permalink**) 16-May-2012, 16:36 PM

MANDEMEET Ji,
We can see How the entity is Different for SIngular and Plural words like Prabhu and Prabh.

The word Prabhu is SINGULAR M/G and PRABH is PLURAL M/G
Considering that these SINGULAR and Plural words are for A Wave then we can see that
the Word PRABhu Singular M/G is the reference for A SINGLE WORD of the WAVE and
The Word PRABH PLURAL M/G is the reference for the complete WAVE

So we have two entities in Gurbanee for any WAVE of the Divine Word as

1...Singular m/G ..............for the Single word of the WAVE and
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190

2...PLURAL m/G...............For the complete WAve of the word

OR

If we consider the use of words as per Gender even then

!...Singular m/G ..............For the single word of the WAVE and

2...SINGULAR f/G.............For the complete WAVE

You can apply this patttern of Grammar for any NOUN word in Gurbanee.

In view of above consideration we can see the reference meanings of the words
HARi PRABHu and HARi PRABH

Now a very important observation is that the word HARi is a very very special for its grammar consideration.And that consideration is that this is the onlly(As I know) word which is SINGULAR as well as PLURAL for masculine or feminine genders.
Whereas all other Noun words for Singular have a matra of Aukad and Plural without Matra of Aukad under its last word)

You prefer to write this word as HAR whereas I write as HAR(i) to indicate the matra of Sihahi with its last letter.How far your way of writing this word is justified I can not understand.

If you follow the same style of avoiding the matra of Aukad how one should be able to understand the entity.Since you are eliminating the matra of Aukad from Noun words that is why you cant make out the difference in the references of two entities as per matra..
You can notice the application of the words with Matra of AUKAD and Without AUKAD as

1....GuRu SATi GuRu and GuR SATiGuR

2...GuRu Narayanu and GuR Narayan

3...GuRu Gobindu and GuR Gobind

4...GuRu NANAKu and GuR NANAK

The above pattern clearly indicates that the words are properly used as per Gender of the reference as well as entity.

Now if you eliminate and dont take into consideration oft he matra of Aukad in relation of entity you are going to say that both entities are same.But if the purpose of matra of Aukad is understood then understanding is different.This is what makes the difference.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38190

Looking forward to your response.

Prakash.s.Bagga