gur kw sbdu n mytY koie ] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
No one can erase the Word of the Guru's Shabad.
gurunwnku nwnku hir soie ]4]7]9] (864-19, goNf, mÚ 5)
Nanak is the Guru; Nanak is the Lord Himself. ||4||7||9||

These are the Vaaks from Guru Arjan dev ji maharaj. I am not able to proceed further as the meaning assigned to the 'tuk' does not fit in well with the conceptual framework Of sikhi that I had the chance to build on this forum. Frankly speaking., I have not yet had one full reading of the Granth sahib ji whom I hold in high esteem.

It was in a post of SPN that I was reading that unlike other religions Sikhism does not preach that their Gurus are God. But here the things do not appear to me in sync. with the above.


Is Guru Nanak dev ji stated to be Creator?
or
The translation is not correct
or
My appreciation Of the translation is faulty.

I would also be grateful if someone can tell as to in which year the line was authored or it was during the compilation of the Granth sahib. Did the earlier 3 gurus not observe this.?

kindly correct me.

__________________

~~~**Jap mun Satnaam sda Satnaam...sda satnaam sda satnaam.....~~~

Dear Sikh80 Ji,


Bani Sach Hai............ doesn't matter in which year the lines are composed.



A TRUE SAINT: WHOSE SOUL IS MERGED WITH THE ALMIGHTY(GOD). SO IS THERE A DIFFERENCE??? NO. BUT A SAINT NEVER NEVER SING HIS/HER OWN PRAISES.....................


NO TRUE SAINT calls himself/herself GOD.


BUT A TRUE SAINT KNOWS ABOUT THE OTHER TRUE SAINT, SO ACKNOWLEDGING HIM .................


Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaaj is telling about Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Nanak Dev Ji.


OUR GURUS ARE SO HUMBLE Sikh80 Ji, THEY HAVE EVEN SUGGESTED THAT NO BODY SHOULD CALL THEM GOD. BUT ONCE ONE KNOWS THE TRUTH, ONCE HEAD BOWS WITH UTMOST RESPECT OVER AND OVER AGAIN.............. AND HEART AND MIND ABSORBS THE TRUTH- TU HI TU.............................

Untill one has doubts about his/her Guru's ability, duality stays lingering in one form or the other..........


SEVAK Sikh POOJAN SABH AAYE............................. read this shabad, in this Shabad Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Sahib is telling that one has to believe the word(order) of his/her Guru as TRUE.

and treatment of doubt is also prescribed by Dhan Dhan Guru Sahib- naam simran/rab nu chete karo/remember Him and only Him............................................... ..................

Waheguru Rakha

__________________
surinder

Thanks for your reply. However, it answers the question only in a round about manner. You have treated all the guru sahibaan as different. They are 'one jot' as they had the same spirit hence treating the gurus as separate entities/gurus in the present context may not be ok.

Secondly, it is stated in Gurbani itself that the Creator Himself cannot take the route of Incarnation. I presume that the translation is incorrect. If we take the translation at face value the entire edifice of sikhi will have to undergo a change. Guru Nanak ji cannot be God/creator as he has stated many things in the eulogisation of the Almighty.One cannot go on praising oneself.It becomes superfluous and redundant and meaningless. Incidently it is in Gurbani that it is stated that the Creator creates Himself. If we take Guru Nanak as the Creator the above does not stand to truth as Guru nanak did not create HIMself.

I think it would be better if some third person guides us. So far as I am concerned I take it as a case of wrong translation /interpretation.
The following line from japu ji sahib shows that Guru nanak ji cannot be the creator.


siq suhwxu sdw min cwau ] (4-16, jpu, mÚ 1)
He is Beautiful, True and Eternally Joyful.
and

jw krqw isrTI kau swjy Awpy jwxY soeI ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
The Creator who created this creation-only He Himself knows.


Let some senior member may help and guide us.
I would reiterate that it is only a case of misinterpretation.

__________________

~~~**Jap mun Satnaam sda Satnaam...sda satnaam sda satnaam.....~~~

SARGUN AND NIRGUN-----------

both are GOD nothing else.

WE ARE ALL 'EK JOT' sikh80 ji.

IT IS THE 'DOUBT' that you have in your mind that is bothering you, as i said before: untill there is doubt, dualty will be there in some form.

humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

__________________
surinder

It is neither duality nor a worry,It is to get a confirmation that baba nanak ji was not creator HIMself. Kindly let someone else also opine and let it be a place where we can remove doubts and obtain clarification.Kindly do not block a discussion..
Even in the following line there is a clue that Guru sahib were not the creator.
ikv kir AwKw ikv swlwhI ikau vrnI ikv jwxw ] (4-19, jpu, mÚ 1)
How can we speak of Him? How can we praise Him? How can we describe Him? How can we know Him?

It would be very useful if someone else may take up the thread.

__________________

~~~**Jap mun Satnaam sda Satnaam...sda satnaam sda satnaam.....~~~

Baba Nanak is not a creator when we are talking in terms of HUMAN BODY/HUMAN LIFE/NON SPRITUAL CONCEPTS.

BUT DHAN DHAN SIRI GURU ARJAN DEV JI IS TALKING ABOUT A SAINT, A SAADH, A REALIZED SOUL not a mere human body.................

i humbly tried to make you think about the truth, you don't want to contemplate on truth, very well.

Waheguru Rakha

__________________
surinder

guru prmysru eyko jwxu ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
gur parmaysar ayko jaan.
Know that the Guru and the Transcendent Lord are One.
jo iqsu BwvY so prvwxu ]1] rhwau ] (864-9, goNf, mÚ 5)
jo tis bhaavai so parvaan. ||1|| rahaa-o.
Whatever pleases Him is acceptable and approved. ||1||Pause||

__________________
surinder

Respected Surinder ji,

You are making statements so frequently and in contradiction that their reliability is lost.I understand your view point now.Let it be attended to by someone else as well . What is the relevance of the above post?.I do not know. Kindly let someone else take up.

So far as I am concerned I am answered and believe that it is a case of mis-interpretation or wrong interpretation.


Regards.

__________________

~~~**Jap mun Satnaam sda Satnaam...sda satnaam sda satnaam.....~~~

any body can understand the relevance:

it states GURU AND GOD -same no difference.

gur parmaysar ayko jaan.

Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Panna # 864

gur parmaysar paarbarahm gur dubdaa la-ay taraa-ay.
Dhan Dhan Siri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Panna # 49


humbly asking for everybody's forgiveness

__________________
surinder

<<<<< deleted >>>>>


Kindly repost your message, Surinder Ji.

namjap
SPN Forum Leader

__________________
surinder