Gurbani Vyakaran - Punjabi Grammar

Luckysingh · #37 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 13:12 PM

It is because of this classification of a way of life in to a religion that sometimes we get lost and absorbed in unneccesary issues. A sikh has no reason to be comparing his way of life to other religions. Guru Nanak didn't say that I want people to be better than hindus or muslims.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani-grammar-vyakaran/38429-gurbani-vyakaran-punjabi-grammar.html
It's when we started comparing religions and rituals such as eat pork or beef or non etc..etc... that we automatically try to define a better religion.
Guru Nanak wanted something that was above and away from all this comparing and contrasting.

As sikhs, we should have no problems interacting with other faiths and races.
We shouldn't compare and contrast other religions against ourselves or each other.- if we do, we are moving away from the 'why were sikhs formed' answer.

It is probably one of the reasons why I can happily watch and learn from 'Grace tv' channel for eg.. hours at a time when others wonder why I'm doing that.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
I may be watching the abrahamic religions and their tv channels especially on Weekend mornings, but I am not for one second ever comparing them to sikhs. I can't see any reason to compare.
I am simply enjoying learning from others, I'm not getting brainwashed just because I may find some issues fascinating.
I live the way I live and I try to live every day with a better sikh way of life than the previous day.
Acknowledging and accepting other world religions is a way of life that I believe, I should lead.

Luckysingh · #38 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 13:30 PM

When we share something which is very important for developing the understanding of Gurbanee we should really be serious about this rather indulge in negative remarks.
On one side we say we are here to learn from each other by sharing the views .We should also know how to share the views.

There is no question of going back or forward when we are sharing the BASIC words of Gurbanee.With every word there is always some past attached to this.We are required to understand Gurbanee the way it is.We can not say that since languages keep on changing and accordingly we can manipulate .
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429

Therefore for developing correct understanding of Gurbanee we will have to become familiar with the style (particularly grammar) to have correct understanding of the messages of Gurbanee otherwise we would always be moving in circles as the situation is existing.
Any one can see and verify the fact that the grammar of the word "GuRoo" is totally ommitted by all our scholars of the past and even present.Why so? The day we start giving a proper thinking to this word this is going to give you a new understanding of Gurbanee which we all may be missing till date.

I am presenting nothing from my own .I am presenting what is actually there in Gurbanee.If it is not so then I should be taken to task for that.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash ji
You do have a valid point although, I don't as yet see the differentiation in the grammar of GuRoo. As to me the message and essence that I perceive from either terms used is still the same.
No, we can't keep manipulating for future. Yes, every word does have past and history attached, we can't deny this, in this sense we have to learn from past facts.
But, it is important that we don't get too attached in the time warp, as the living is for now, and we are to live the sikh way of life.
Having knowldege of past helps one move forward better, as long as we carry on.
Similar to taking 2 steps forward and 1 back, is better than '1'forward and '1' back.
We have to learn to draw the line and differentiate between 'now' and 'then'.

Waheguru

prakash.s.bagga · #39 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 15:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Luckysingh

When we share something which is very important for developing the understanding of Gurbanee we should really be serious about this rather indulge in negative remarks.
On one side we say we are here to learn from each other by sharing the views .We should also know how to share the views.

There is no question of going back or forward when we are sharing the BASIC words of Gurbanee.With every word there is always some past attached to this.We are required to understand Gurbanee the way it is.We can not say that since languages keep on changing and accordingly we can manipulate .

Therefore for developing correct understanding of Gurbanee we will have to become familiar with the style (particularly grammar) to have correct understanding of the messages of Gurbanee otherwise we would always be moving in circles as the situation is existing.
Any one can see and verify the fact that the grammar of the word "GuRoo" is totally ommitted by all our scholars of the past and even present.Why so? The day we start giving a proper thinking to this word this is going to give you a new understanding of Gurbanee which we all may be missing till date.

I am presenting nothing from my own .I am presenting what is actually there in Gurbanee.If it is not so then I should be taken to task for that.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash ji
You do have a valid point although, I don't as yet see the differentiation in the grammar of GuRoo. As to me the message and essence that I perceive from either terms used is still the same.
No, we can't keep manipulating for future. Yes, every word does have past and history attached, we can't deny this, in this sense we have to learn from past facts.
But, it is important that we don't get too attached in the time warp, as the living is for now, and we are to live the sikh way of life.
Having knowldege of past helps one move forward better, as long as we carry on.
Similar to taking 2 steps forward and 1 back, is better than '1'forward and '1' back.
We have to learn to draw the line and differentiate between 'now' and 'then'.

Waheguru

I fully agree with your views.You have the feeling of the essence of the messages independent of grammar consideration have I ever put any question on this.? This is absolutely concerned with your own state of viewing the messages.I would always respect your views.
But when there is a specific topic being shared we should know how this has to be shared otherwise it is of no use to share this at all.My views only reflect this aspect of sharing.
It is expected only those should share who atleast are convinced that there is some grammatical pattern in the language of Gurbanee and knowing this may be helpful in enhancing the correct understanding of Gurbanee.
Only then we can go ahead 1 step otherwise it is always 1 srep ahead and 5 steps back.
Nothing can be understoodor accepted without will.
Prakash.S.Bagga

davinderdhanjal · #40 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 17:17 PM

The development of Punjabi/Gurmukhi is very interesting and some people think it is the oldest language in the world. It is quite believable as most religions started in the North of India and due to invasions this area became stronger in language and spirit of self preservation.
It has its basis in Dravidian Munda group, Vadic languages, before Aryan, Sanskrit, later Persian and Turk inputs.
Most North Indian languages follow similar development to Punjabi - however during a period 3500BC to 600BC the history of development is patchy.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
It clear that Punjabi is very versatile and can reproduce words and sounds in most languages and contains letters like t, T, f, F, x, V which are not present in any other language. So there is a content of Darvidian and Sanskrit words and some modified ones (a list can be provided).
The foot matras were introduced into Punjabi/Gurmukhi to include Sanskrit words that cannot be correctly written in other scripts. Later when the Islamic influence came in Punjab it spurned another refinement. Sikh Gurus right up to Guru Gobind Singh had refined the language to what we see today with all the matras.
It can be seen in the writings of our Gurus some used matras and some did not. Indeed in Hindi, I believe, one can write words with or without matras but it requires interpretation. Later additions of letters like ‘Z, ^, z’ etc. were introduced to reproduce exact sounds used in Persian language. So we are thankful to Guru Gobind Singh to present us with the perfected language in form of the Granth Sahib. There is some difficulty in adding a pdf copy of a chart. I shall try again later.

davinderdhanjal · #41 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 17:57 PM

prakash.s.bagga Ji writes "Therefore it is important to understand that Guranee is telling again again to contemplate on the word "GuRoo" only"
I am not sure I agree with that statement - the word that one should contemplate on is what is given to one by a guru who leads one to the path to the Lord.
You may be interested to know that use of name for God/Lord in Granth Sahib in abundance is Hari/Har. Please show where your statement is in the Granth Sahib in case the context is missed.
The meanings of the word have been discussed a number of times by different contributors I list my version again
‘gur = igAwn dwqw, guru vwlw’
‘guru = mq dw clwx vwlw’
‘gurU = guru dw gurU’
These may not be all the meanings so please add your contribution of grammar to this to bring light to the subject.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429

Luckysingh Ji commented that we should not compare religions. I agree that we should not say that this religion is better than the other however let us take the example of Guru Nanak who not only ‘compared’ but showed us where the abuse was being created by Brahmins on the general public because they thought they were the chosen people. As you know eventually that is what threw out this hypocritical culture and also the heavy handed and unfair rule of the Muguls. He taught us to rely on ourselves and be true and fair and showed how it can be done by the contribution of ten Nanaks.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
Luckysingh Ji, all I have said is in Granth Sahib please try pages 471/472 and may be more elsewhere.

prakash.s.bagga · #42 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 21:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davinderdhanjal

prakash.s.bagga Ji writes "Therefore it is important to understand that Guranee is telling again again to contemplate on the word "GuRoo" only"
I am not sure I agree with that statement - the word that one should contemplate on is what is given to one by a guru who leads one to the path to the Lord.
You may be interested to know that use of name for God/Lord in Granth Sahib in abundance is Hari/Har. Please show where your statement is in the Granth Sahib in case the context is missed.
The meanings of the word have been discussed a number of times by different contributors I list my version again
‘gur = igAwn dwqw, guru vwlw’
‘guru = mq dw clwx vwlw’
‘gurU = guru dw gurU’
These may not be all the meanings so please add your contribution of grammar to this to bring light to the subject.

Luckysingh Ji commented that we should not compare religions. I agree that we should not say that this religion is better than the other however let us take the example of Guru Nanak who not only ‘compared’ but showed us where the abuse was being created by Brahmins on the general public because they thought they were the chosen people. As you know eventually that is what threw out this hypocritical culture and also the heavy handed and unfair rule of the Muguls. He taught us to rely on ourselves and be true and fair and showed how it can be done by the contribution of ten Nanaks.
Luckysingh Ji, all I have said is in Granth Sahib please try pages 471/472 and may be more elsewhere.

I understood from your message about recognising the three words as gur,guru and gurU.Not more that this.
Now I wish to tell me about the meanings of these words according to your understanding so that I share the same with your goodself.
Prakash.S.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga · #43 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 23:11 PM

DEVENDERDHANJAL Ji,
My undersanding of grammar of three words as mentionted by your goodself is as

WORD..............GENDER...................CLASS NUMBER
i i i
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
gur................ Masculine ................PLURAL..Many Numbers more than two

gur.................FEMININE ................SINGULAR..One Number

guru...............Masculine..................SING ULAR..One Number

gurU...............COMMON .................SINGULAR...One Number

I wish to understand your views on this grammar .

Prakash.S.Bagga

prakash.s.bagga · #44 (**permalink**) 04-May-2012, 00:33 AM

DAVENDER DHANJAL Ji,

There is a small mistake in the above message .Pl note that thegrammar of the word gurU is as
Gender Class ..Number
gurU............Common..........SINGULAR..TWO NUMBER

That is why I prefer to write the word gurU as guroo to avoid confusion with small and capital u.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
I am soory for this mistake.
Prakash.s.Bagga

davinderdhanjal · #45 (**permalink**) 05-May-2012, 00:45 AM

prakash.s.bagga Ji,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
WORD..............GENDER...................CLASS NUMBER
i i i
gur................ Masculine ................PLURAL..Many Numbers more than two
gur – gur dwqw is singular, gur vwlw – is also singular
gur.................FEMININE ................SINGULAR..One Number
guru...............Masculine..................SING ULAR..One Number
gurU...............COMMON .................SINGULAR...One Number
‘gurU – guru dw gurU’ is singular

I shall, when I find and example, pass on to you. It is important to ensure that the message in the bani is not misconstrued. There are examples, even to my naïve mind, where the English and Gurmukhi interpretations do not agree with the Gurbani writing. If you find that may be we should bring it to the attention of our contributors. That way we will all be able to understand why we need to labour the grammar so much.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429