Gurbani Vyakaran - Punjabi Grammar

prakash.s.bagga · #28 (**permalink**) 01-May-2012, 18:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gyani Jarnail Singh

In the above its clear that GUR..is representing the CREATOR...Gur jahaaz..Gur Parsaad...the Aunkadd signifies CAPITAL ...PROPER NOUN...and GURU would be any "teacher"...Guru Nanak..Guru Angad..Guru Granth....HE the CREATOR has to bestow His GURPARSAAD...and HE ALONE can GRANT MUKTEE......

Its quite SIMPLE actually..if we begin to eat the mangoes instead of counting how many trees are there..

I hope you may probably accept a fact that sometimes the SIMPLEST things are most difficult to understand and swallow.
Prakash.S.Bagga

BhagatSingh · #29 (**permalink**) 01-May-2012, 18:51 PM

Like enlightenment

Ambarsaria · #30 (**permalink**) 02-May-2012, 00:06 AM

In reference to Prakash.S.Bagga ji's approach to make mountains out of mole hills let us review again for nth time, not that it is going to make any difference to him to introduce Hinduvta concepts of multiple Creators, versus one creator espoused in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sikhism,

Quote:

ਗੁਰੁ --ਗੁਰ ਹੀ; ਗੁਰ ਜੀ -- creator is; respected creator of; of the creator

ਜਹਾਜੁ -- ਜਹਾਜ ਹੀ; ਜਹਾਜ ਹੈ -- as ship; ship is

ਖੇਵਟੁ -- ਖੇਵਟ ਹੈ -- is Oarsman

ਗੁਰੂ -- ਗੁਰ ਅਧਿਆਪਕ; ਗੁਰ ਸਾਡੇ ਗੁਰੂ ਜੀ ਦਾ ਗੁਰੂ -- teaching of the creator; creator is teacher of our teacher (Guru ji)

ਗੁਰ -- One Creator

ਬਿਨੁ -- without one

Note: ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ --- Singular as combination (without one creator)

ਤਰਿਆ ਨ ਕੋਇ ॥

ਗੁਰ

ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ

ਪ੍ਰਭੁ -- ਪ੍ਰਭ ਹੀ; ਪ੍ਰਭ ਜੀ -- one creator; respected creator

ਪਾਈਐ

ਗੁਰ

ਬਿਨੁ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਨ ਹੋਇ ॥ {ਪੰਨਾ 1401}

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

The word GuR is Plural

Sanskrit or not through this Prakash.S.Bagga ji tries to attack the core concept of Sikhism. That is of one creator.

The word ਗੁਰ is not plural as used in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. One infinite creator by definition is singularity or plurality unaffected.

Gur as one creator. He brings in indirectly the Hinduvta concepts of Ramu, Shamu, etc., as a collection of creator's constellation versus any metaphoric or other use of such names in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

word GuRu is Singular this you can find in all Gurbanee grammar books.

This is simply stated that unless you see this word then multiple creator's are mentioned or to be believed in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji whenever you see ਗੁਰ. It is false as see the difference described above between ਗੁਰ ਗੁਰੁ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

But surprisingly all these books are silent on the grammar of the word GuRoo(only in one book I could see this also being mentiond as Singular)and that book is by Joginder Singh Talwara ji

A child in a village, a kid in primary school knows GuRooਗੁਰੂ to be Singular. So I don't understand the great revelations he claims to be making.
Sat Sri Akal.

Luckysingh · #31 (**permalink**) 02-May-2012, 06:27 AM

Here we are discussing which language terms or phraseology is more appropriate and correct.
Let's not forget that Guru Nanak Dev Ji introduced us to a new language that others couldn't quite grasp in those times- the DIVINE language.
The DIVINE language is the special coded messages addressed to and from God.

His divine language was not like the other religions and gods BUT it was the messages for everyone that we could all take from the shabad.

prakash.s.bagga · #32 (**permalink**) 02-May-2012, 11:39 AM

We should keep a very fact in mind that the very word "GuRoo" which is the fundamental Base word of Gurbanee is from SANSKRIT.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/gurbani-grammar-vyakaran/38429-gurbani-vyakaran-punjabi-grammar.html

Prakash.s.Bagga

Ambarsaria · #33 (**permalink**) 02-May-2012, 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by prakash.s.bagga

We should keep a very fact in mind that the very word "GuRoo" which is the fundamental Base word of Gurbanee is from SANSKRIT.

Prakash.s.Bagga

Prakash.S.Bagga ji you are just grabbing on to straws. This is not about winning or losing but common sense and not super sense.

Let us please stop this basic stuff exploitation. Languages adapt, adopt and assimilate words all the time. The words get meaning in the language, say Punjabi, as the given word is adapted, adopted and assimilated. The word Guru or your so called phonetic version "Guroo" is clearly understood in its usage by 99.9999% of the Sikhs. I don't know about your education in Punjabi but as soon as we could speak along with basic math we recited each and everyday the following along with math tables,

Pehli Patshahi Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji
Duji Patshai Sri Guru Angad Dev ji
..... and for all the ten Guru jis

Is their confusion as to what is meant when we say "Guru Nanak Dev ji"? Not to me but perhaps one like you based on your continuous dwelling on Sanskrit.

Guru has been adapted, used and understood in Punjab and Punjabi way before our forefathers were born. Guru is most respectful teacher. Someone you look up to for wisdom, learning, and so on.

Why are you bringing all these tangential Sanskrit stuff to reverse adaptations, adoptions and assimilation to ascribe meanings that a given new language really could not care less for in spite of the origin two thousand plus years ago. Look in the English dictionaries how they have adopted the word Guru in less religious ways as simply to mean a leader, an expert and so on. You believe you are going to tell the world to read Upanishads and stop using words as they have been adopted. Such would be utter and useless endeavor and not as noble as one may pretend or claim. There is no value to this other than to confuse or appear an expert and more knowledgeable.

Sat Sri Akal.

prakash.s.bagga · #34 (**permalink**) 02-May-2012, 13:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambarsaria

Prakash.S.Bagga ji you are just grabbing on to straws. This is not about winning or losing but common sense and not super sense.

Let us please stop this basic stuff exploitation. Languages adapt, adopt and assimilate words all the time. The words get meaning in the language, say Punjabi, as the given word is adapted, adopted and assimilated. The word Guru or your so called phonetic version "Guroo" is clearly understood in its usage by 99.9999% of the Sikhs. I don't know about your education in Punjabi but as soon as we could speak along with basic math we recited each and everyday the following along with math tables,

Pehli Patshahi Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji
Duji Patshai Sri Guru Angad Dev ji
..... and for all the ten Guru jis

Is their confusion as to what is meant when we say "Guru Nanak Dev ji"? Not to me but perhaps one like you based on your continuous dwelling on Sanskrit.

Guru has been adapted, used and understood in Punjab and Punjabi way before our forefathers were born. Guru is most respectful teacher. Someone you look up to for wisdom, learning, and so on.

Why are you bringing all these tangential Sanskrit stuff to reverse adaptations, adoptions and assimilation to ascribe meanings that a given new language really could not care less for in spite of the origin two thousand plus years ago. Look in the English dictionaries how they have adopted the word Guru in less religious ways as simply to mean a leader, an expert and so on. You believe you are going to tell the world to read Upanishads and stop using words as they have been adopted. Such would be utter and useless endeavor and not as noble as one may pretend or claim. There is no value to this other than to confuse or appear an expert and more knowledgeable.

Sat Sri Akal.

It seems that you are confused between language and religion. this seems to have stemmed out of your chanting of various religious verses in your childhood along with mathematical tables. As a result you neither understand religion nor mathematical logics. So it seems our feeling about each other of presenting ourselves as more knowledgeable is mutual.

Why else would you deviate from the basic questrion I presented and draw it to the arena of liguistic origins. If we go by the logic of "Adaptation" very soon we are going to have thousands of "gurus" because afterall adaptation of language is essentially adaptation of the Human behaviour. And due to this adaptaion only we have so many BABAS and So called Saints and this is ever increasing.

Therefore it is important to understand that Guranee is telling again again to contemplate on the word "GuRoo" only .

Prakash.S.Bagga

Luckysingh · #35 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 12:13 PM

Punjabi is a language that does descend from the medieval languages used in India.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
Some words may be directly linked to sanskrit, some to persian and some to shauresani etc..etc..
There were adaptations of these medieval languages which resulted in punjabi.
But, just like the Sikhism, that came as a religion that was neither hindu or muslim, in effect it was adapted for those times.
Some still regard sikhism as an offspring religion, which it clearly is not.-as it has it's own unique identity and beliefs. Only by learning about it , does one realize this.

Prakashji, you are correct in the sense of saying that adaptation of language results in adaptation of human behaviour. Yes, this is how offspring sects are formed.
This is also the reason why sikhism is considered by some others as an offspring itself.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429

But, we can't keep going back to see what came 1st, that was not the idea. The idea was to move forward with sikhism and identify it with all things that stood for truth, without tracing backwards.
Guru Nanak ji said 'na koi hindu na musalman'
He didn't say we are all hindu and musalman and we should get on ahead.
He introduced the truth, that is above man made religions.
Followers of this concept are sikhs. Sikhs are unique in this aspect, we don't simply stand for some truthful concepts of islam and hindus put together or a few things from each faith mixed together. BUT, we are followers of the complete and whole truthful concept of one creator.

So,we should steer clear ahead of trying to retrace steps by going back, as going back brings the same mixed confusions of the people then.
Sikhism, even from it's inception was never meant to be a religion.Guru nanak dev ji never set out to form a new religion. It's what the people have made it.
Sikhi and it's teachings was a 'spiritual way of life- for the true lord, living by the truth'
This spiritual way of life exceeded all the religions of that time, it wasn't started to compete or otherwise with them.

The journey is now and ahead.

Waheguru

prakash.s.bagga · #36 (**permalink**) 03-May-2012, 13:04 PM

When we share something which is very important for developing the understanding of Gurbanee we should really be serious about this rather indulge in negative remarks.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429
On one side we say we are here to learn from each other by sharing the views .We should also know how to share the views.

There is no question of going back or forward when we are sharing the BASIC words of Gurbanee.With every word there is always some past attached to this.We are required to understand Gurbanee the way it is.We can not say that since languages keep on changing and accordingly we can manipulate .

Therefore for developing correct understanding of Gurbanee we will have to become familiar with the style (particularly grammar) to have correct understanding of the messages of Gurbanee otherwise we would always be moving in circles as the situation is existing.
Any one can see and verify the fact that the grammar of the word "GuRoo" is totally ommitted by all our scholars of the past and even present.Why so? The day we start giving a proper thinking to this word this is going to give you a new understanding of Gurbanee which we all may be missing till date.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38429

I am presenting nothing from my own .I am presenting what is actually there in Gurbanee.If it is not so then I should be taken to task for that.

Prakash.s.Bagga