Akhand Paath in languages other than the original

Ishna · #28 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2012, 04:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanwaljit Singh

Akhand Paath was started when the Swaroops of Guru Granth Sahib were limited and they went from town to town, so there will be Akhand Paaths so that people could listen to Gurbani in shortest time (non stop renditions).

Now consider Rehat. Like you have to read Japuji Sahib in the morning. Would you be OK with reading just the translation and not the Gurbani? Similarly I wonder if we can consider the whole volume of Guru Granth Sahib translations as Guru? No we cannot. We would not bow to that. The notion of Paath is incomplete without Gurbani. Translation will enhance your understanding.

I do my japji Sahib half in Gurbani (and don't understand most of what I'm saying) and half in English. I am learning the word sounds so it makes it easier I hope later on to learn the meanings behind the words. But when I'm done, its the English that I carry with me and contemplate, because the rest I don't understand. Actually that's not entirely true. Gurbani phrases often get stuck in my head because they rhyme.

You are correct, we would not bow to any other bir except the original.

Quote:

I understand for you the tougher part is the pigeon hole problem, making sure all translations fit the original word.

I don't quite understand what you mean by pigeonholing, the problem is lack of resources to learn what each word means. you can have a sentence in Gurbani and the same in English but it means nothing unless you can see what the Gurbani words actually mean which lead to the English translation. Am I clear?

Quote:

Ishna ji, see here you are ahead of me, I am still researching the use of 'ki' and 'da' in Gurbani and don't have a concrete hypothesis on it. Maybe you can start a new topic with your understandings.

I highly doubt that brother! I didn't even realise 'ki' was more complicated than that!

Quote:

What is Gurbani to us? Just some nice thoughts written in Gurmukhi language? No. I am not caring about the Gurmukhi. I am not concerned about what language it is written in. Gurbani is our Living Guru. Each word, matra, sound etc. is a creation of our Gurus. When I read from Gurmukhi Gutka, I see everyday, the hard work our Gurus had put in, their beautiful art, it is in a way reliving the history 300 years ago all over again. I don't want to let go of that feeling.

Great paragraph, don't let go of that feeling.

But remember, the mission is to understand and put into practice what the Guru jis have written. It wasn't written for the sake of writing but for the sake of teaching. You can't learn if you don't understand. That's like trying to teach math without knowing which numeric symbol represents which number. Sure, you can verbally count from one to ten, can recognise and say the numbers out loud, but you don't know that one is a single, two is a pair, etc.

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #29 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2012, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

Perhaps I'm not reading it right, but your post talks about akhand paath ritual being useless and ends saying a rendition in any other language is even more useless than that. I would ask, how is it even more useless?

(edit)- perhaps Gyaniji is saying which is more broken, the shattered cup or the shattered mug.

Yes Ji..the idea is in the mug/cup part. An AP in Gurmukhi as its done now is a shattered CUP..and in English it would be shattered MUG..BOTH useless.

OSingh · #30 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2012, 15:51 PM

Gurbani is also written to a poetic metre. This is why Gurbani rhymes so beautifully and we can both utter Gurbani (path) and do kirtan. When you do translation you lose the poetic and rhyming quality which is very important. It is the way Gurbani has been written that one can listen for long time.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/38801-akhand-paath-languages-other-than-original.html

Translations and meanings done in English are fine but paath and kirtan of Gurbani should always be done in Gurmukhi.

The rass and an anand of reading Gurbani in Gurmukhi can never be equalled by translation. Reading Gurbani in Gurmukhi one even gets anand from the bani we do not understand such is the poetic quality of Gurbani.

If one really wants to get full benefit of Gurbani they will surely make an effort to learn Gurmukhi. We learn lots of other stuff and waste hours doing useless activities but we cannot take the time out to learn Gurmukhi?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38801

I agree Akhand Paath is just becoming a revenue stream for Gurdwaras to finance even more Akhaand Paaths and weddings. Those booking the Akhaand Paath do not listen to the bani rather they spend most of the time in the langar hall chatting with relatives. Everybody then attends the final ardaas thinking they have done Akhaand Paath but in reality have not even listened to or done vichar of even 1 pankti of Gurbani. For 3 days the the darbar sahib is mostly empty whilst the Granthi does path in poor manner which no one can understand.

However the Granthi must also be disheartened when none of the par war (family) who organised Akhaand Paath are actually listening to it. This results in the Granthi becoming lazy in doing the paath. However when there is lots of Sangat for the bhog then the Granthis do paath of final banis Mahalla Naava, Mundavani loudly and clearly.

For a good Akhaand Paath you you require good sewadaars who do sewa with pyaar and shardha. You require Granthis who can read Gurbani in fluent and clear manner and do not becoming lazy in doing path. The Granthi should read Gurbani in same manner regardless of how many in attendance. Also at least 1 member of parwar if not all should always be listening to paath of Gurbani in Darbar Sahib.

The Gurdawara committee's need to set out guidelines before an Akhand Paath and tell the parwar clearly what is required of them. However this is unlikely as this will result in less Akhand Paaths and therefore less revenue.

Satguru Mehar Karan!

Randip Singh · #31 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2012, 18:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kanwaljit Singh

English and other Latin languages were around at the time Gurbani was written. Our Gurus were well travelled and probably aware of them. Still they chose Gurmukhi was they found it was the best script to unify all the Baani under one Framework. Remember, Gurbani from other 'languages' were not chosen to support many languages. The primary reason was that they were spiritually relevant.

See this award winning documentary on Gurmukhi http://www.sikhnet.com/video/35

The reason why the Guru's wrote in Gurmukhi was that it was the language of the common man in Punjab:

http://www.sikhs.org/gurmukhi.htm

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=K...khi%3F&f=false

It was the language that Guru Nanak spoke. No common man understood religious texts because they were either in Sanskrit or in the case of Muslim ones Arabic.

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=q...khi%3F&f=false

If they had been brought up in England they would have written in English (around that time it would have been Shakespearean English).

Writing the Guru Granth Sahib ji in English or Spanish at that period of time would have made no sense whatsoever. The Guru's wanted to convey the word of God in language that the common man understood in Punjab.

In order for people to remember it more easily, they also wrote it to verse and made it rhyme.

In terms of translation, Hew Mcleods done a pretty good job as well as Pritam Singh Chahil:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=M...mcleod&f=false

itsmaneet · #32 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2012, 20:00 PM

The only problem with translation is it differs the 'pronunciation' & we now how important is the correct pronunciation. So, Gurbani preferably should be read in its original language itself.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38801

It's my view & am saying on my experience may differ from other ....

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #33 (**permalink**) 20-Jul-2012, 21:39 PM

There is one scholar..a Professor Gopal Singh dardee who was in the Indian Govt..he wrote a Four Vol Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji in ENGLISH which RHYMES !! I have a Copy...

This guy fell victim to a SCAM..some White Guy came to see him and told him he is chosen for the Nobel Prize and he has to pay a large sum to book a place as well as have his compositions and name in the NP book. He even had Greeting cards printed announcing a party at a five star hotel in Delhi to celebrate this..next morning he was flabbergasted to note that no such NP was awarded to him..and he was cheated in a scam..

Ishna · #34 (**permalink**) 21-Jul-2012, 08:22 AM

Wow, I find it hard to comprehend an English translation which rhymes AND maintains any semblance of meaning or coherancy. Gyaniji, can I bother you to copy out a small shabad here please so we can see?

Gyani Jarnail Singh · #35 (**permalink**) 21-Jul-2012, 21:20 PM

I will scan a page or two...its a really ancient copy and has to be carefully opened...

Ishna · #36 (**permalink**) 21-Jul-2012, 21:49 PM

You could try opening it carefully and taking a photograph instead of subjecting it to a flatbed scanner, perhaps. What I'd give to have a look in your library Gyaniji...