The Problem with Religion...

Over the last few years as I started to dwell more into Sikhism, and religion in general, I began to notice revisionist history and trends that transcend all cultures and religion.

My main issues are summarized in this paragraph :

Theistic belief has been the controlling social structure/order for the generations before Governmental Law/Democracy came into place. By a theistic religion, we are not held responsible for our actions, and we attribute unknown knowledge to that of God. There are always more well-defined suitable goals which exist not in this life, but the next. Theistic religions always try to disconnect the member from society, and make them revitalize internally and focus on a Godly connection, rather than an external connection to man and materialism. How in the modern world does this structure still live? A new system is needed in order to progress humanity (Rich) to humanity in other parts of the unfortunate world (poor) that hold different characteristics (race, religion, etc...).

The mainstream followers of any religion provide the fuel for the fundamental organizations that still exist today. When religion became organized, it is utilized like any other institution to keep the wealthy wealthy, and to keep the select few in power. If Granthis wouldnt get paid, free trips to America, and free housing, would they really be granthis? Seems like Gurdwaras and the Gurdwaras committee boards are always in the need for "donations" ? Seems like God can handle a lot of things, except money. Donate 1/2 of your first pay check to Gurdwara, $1 per day, per visit, "Matha Tahk".
Fundamentalist organizations that strive off division to create their own niche in which they will attain survivability and power. Everything is divide and conquer. Sikhism is based on teaching you about this identity and the sacredness of it. Humans, in general, need to see beyond identity, these are all created by forces in power to keep us mindless and commercialized. See beyond that of race, religion, wealth, class.

Religion supports blind submission to authority. "God" controls it, "Karma." "The Watcher". "God is everywhere, be a good person." In the main paragraph listed above, it implies that theistic religious belief systems are the ground roots to much of the trouble today. Theistic belief systems rely on not questioning God, because the authority is greater than the individual person, and is not comprehend-able by the human brain (even though science has now specified why humans have the desire to believe, or did have the desire). I feel this logic which is similar to many religions around the world left humanity in the state we are in today. Submissive zombies to the people in power (television, government, police force). The average person refuses to read the mandate given by the people in power (government) to realize his rights (when committing a felony, or getting pulled over by the cops) and will simply submit to any form of punishment.

Religious myth was always used to control societies. The person watching over your every move? Organizing an unorganized mob by telling them to keep "5 K's" because everyone was from a different background, and needed to learn how to work together? Karma? All are methods of keeping social order at the respective time.

Let go of the past, a new age is coming.
Religion is a thing of the past. Punjabi people need to progress.

P.S. - The paragraphs above may not make sense, and may not be coherently connected to each other. Just random thoughts I'd mumble about.

The first defense always given is "Your stating problems that are with Sikhs, and not with Sikhi". In this sense, you are always right, Sikhi is perfect and the Sikhs aren't, because of human nature. Why hold onto an ideology which throughout the years has failed miserably, time and time again?

When the Gurus first arrived, they brought about change that initiated intelligence and sped up development. They did not try to reform and adapt previously tried methods. They took what worked best for the people before them, and added in new structures which went against conventional belief, and mixed them out to form a progressive movement. Religion in today's time, claims that the peak of intelligence is that of a man who lived hundreds (thousands) of years ago. That any form of social interaction or disruption is "maya" and "kaljug" to confuse the individual into thinking those times were perfect, and now things are bad. This is all a form to disconnect the individual from his society. To get him to focus elsewhere rather than on Earth, on this society, on this world, in this life-time.

Truth be told, if the Siri Guru Granth Sahib was written today, or just a random book in the library, no one would follow it with their life "on the double-edged sword" anymore than someone would follow "The Tipping Point" or "Blink" for moral guidance and objectivity. The Bible would be no different than any other science fiction books based around morality and ensuring a safe society.

Question #2 - If God exists, prove it.

 
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It seems like that you are under fundamental aethist propaganda.FIrst make a list of problems today and then describe how many problems in this world are because of religion and how many because of other things.

aLso please tell me was

was first world war fought because of religion?

was second world fought because of religion?

FRom past 100 years aethists are attacking religions.I am also interested to know that apart from earning money and making their careers
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/general-discussion/17965-the-problem-with-religion.html
What aethists has done for humanti and poor people

I actually feel the opposite. It was religious propaganda that made me "believe" that "believing" was right. Social pressure.

By all means, I don't consider myself a naive kid, and I highly doubt that I was convinced into atheism by propaganda or the internet. It's more like this is the most logical, rational, and fact-based method out there. I pretty much locked myself in a room, and this truth liberated my mind.

I don't understand your question of the world wars being fought because of religion? Are you implying that disbelief in religion caused wars to arise? Religion has caused wars and many conflicts in the past, and will do again in the future (Crusades, dark ages, delhi riots were based on a sole identity of one religion vs. the next). Let's look at the modern method of government -- Law / Democracy. No two Democracies have ever went to war together. We generally believe, that if the entire world was broken into democracies the world would be better. Naive thought, christians believe if everyone was christian (i.e. the same), the world would be better. Everyone was Khalsa, the world would be pure.

All I'm saying is religion is an out-dated system that relies on the peak of intelligence occurring hundreds of years ago, and making you as disconnected from today's world as possible. It's all been revisionist history written by people to keep themselves in power.

Half these stories about Sikh history are pure imagination. Half these things that sikhs should practice, are not practiced by the people in power because they are only using the religious myth to stay in power and keep control.

Dont be so ignorant and judgemental on atheists...you need to do some homework.


Aside from the countless scientists and professors that are atheists that have come and gone... yea what have atheists contributed to society?

go ahead and watch this (i dare you...):
YouTube - Atheist


The interface which we communicate through now was invented by an atheist.

What has atheism done for humanity and poor people?
-Is this some kind of joke?

have you read the communist manifesto? communism is an entirely atheist movement for equality and justice. Every trade union/manufacturing union is a direct off-shoot of the communist/socialist movement.

The feminist movement was and continues to be an atheist movement. Again a movement for equal rights amongst HUMANITY.

Greepeace and countless other environmental organizations started off as atheist organizations.

atheists are just as morally developed as any other human being. You apparently have been affected by religious propaganda; which believes that atheists are blood sucking, selfish, "lost", inhuman scum.

so now you know what atheists have accomplished...and I can assure you they have been around for much longer than a 100 years!

open your eyes.
cheers

Well aside from everything you said (which to a large part I agree with).... I think you are bieng rather unfair with a short sited statement like that.

Nobody can prove anything to you. You have to do that yourself...grow up and make decisions for yourself. Do not rely on others to teach you everything or dictate teachings upon you (even the guru's of sikhi would agree with that)


My veiws:
religion should be studied as a historical and social science. Religion is a political institution as much as it is a spiritual one. Many devout believers forget this; thus believe it is unholy to look at religion with a critical eye. In return, the monopolization of power is the outcome. The Granth should be worshipped as much as any book of knowledge or morality.
but rituals are hard to let go of.

what I agree with most; is your thoughts on submission:
"submission" to God is largely the islamic influence in our faith. Why should we submit to an all knowing, all powerfull entity?

It sounds like the wishes and wetdream of a a dictator or politicians, if you ask me! .... complete submission is the route to disaster for all of humanity.

The problem with that statement is "IF" it was written today! it wasnt written today or yesterday...but during a political upheavel in Punjab almost 500-300 years ago. So it holds a particular historical weight which must be taken into consideration. The change it brought must be analyzed and respected as historical fact.

You need the ability to remeber the past in order to progress...

you cant just "let it go".....but you can tweak it....and this is what society will eventually do. Of course you will always have conservatives who wish to perserve the past....but they fall victim to societal strains and die-off over the natural course of time.

Yes religion is outdated and this point is completely valid. To think that people 300 years ago were morally purer to people today is insanity. (we are just as bad). I consistantly here "this is the period of Kaljug".... to which I reply:
"well if Kaljug is indicative of democracy, freedom of thought, freedom of speech, free social market and jelly doughnuts then I rather be in Kaljug than what preceded it!"

cheers

Dear s1kh

You just said that most of the world's problem is because of theistic beleif that's why i just asked you make a list of world's problem and then tell how many are because of religion and how many are because of other things.


Democracies did went war on one another.It itself is not a perfect system.In democracies
government only hear the voice of people which have the numbers.Leaders don't care about minorities.let me give you an example in india jaats,rajputs in some states are in the list of backward classes which is total B.S. because these communities were never oppressed on the other hand many communities are still struggling to get the status of tribals or schedule castes , reason they don't have votebank.

Religion could be an outdated system but a peaceful religion do keeeps a human mind control.There is no way you could fulfil the material desires of 6.5 billion people.If religion gives people happiness then what's wrong in it.

As far as world's problem are concerned the main culprit is human nature.It is human nature to fight and proves his superiority on other humans.The human nature of jealousy,
greed,unlimited wants etc are main culprits.people also fight for their culture ,language
,country etc .

Let me ask you a simple question at present demographics of world is highly imbalanced
on one hand south asia , china is highly over populated.The farmers of these countries
are facing severe shortage of land on the other hand canada,australia
russia are countreis with least populatoion and abundance of land .The question is will these countries allow farmers from asia to settle and do farming.the answer is no because the if people migrate in large number to these countries then the present white majority will loose its majority status so don't think that religion is mainly responsible for world's problem.

Dear sinister

I was 100% sure that you are going to reply in this thread.reason your tribal mentality
will force you.Please don't mind but we all have tribal mentality and we all associate
ourself with different tribes.Just like whenever anyone say bad about sikhism my tribal mentality forces me to counter him and when anybody say's bad about atheists your tribal mentality forces you to counter him

oh__ i don't have unlimited download internet connection and i don't even have speakers in my pc so please tell me what is in that you tube Vdo

Did he invented this interface for humanity or did he invented it for poor people.It was
his ambition to invent that's why he invented.do most of the scientists ever think that
would be the impact of their inventions on humans and poor people.Most of the world's weapon of mass destruction are invented by scientists.They just don't even think about what would be the impact of their inventions on society.its their job to invent that's why they jus invent

[quote]What has atheism done for humanity and poor people?
-Is this some kind of joke?

have you read the communist manifesto? communism is an entirely atheist movement for equality and justice. Every trade union/manufacturing union is a direct off-shoot of the communist/socialist movement.[/quot

Now is this some kind of joke.the movement that destroyed many countries and is responsible for millions of death in 20 th century you are calling it an acheivement
The communists countries became bankrupt, the countries that employed socialists
methods almost became pennisless and they immdiately reverted to capitalist policies.

The communists king stalin itself was no less cruel than hitler infact he was responsible for more deaths than hitler.Country like russia which is rich in natural resources is still struggling with its economy.calling communism an acheivement is cruel joke.

i AM not a big fan of feminist movements. as far as fighting injustice and voilence against
women is concerned iys o.k. everybody should fight against it.but one of the other aim of these movement is to make women more selfish and live for themselves rather than their families.In other words copy men in all bad things and become as bad as men are.
These movements also repeatedly degraded and insulted the status of housewives by calling them slaves.

i Should give atheists credit for this

Yes i know it but still they were unable to create a soceity that could last for thousands of years.Religions like islam and christianity still dominate the world.

I have nothing against atheists i was just countering anti religious propagana of s1kh

Thank you very much

Hello Kds_1980: read the entire post carefully. If you put vanity aside for while you may just end up agreeing with it:

After that post, which I read in its entirety, I have concluded that you are just as blissfully shallow as S1KH.

The typical brain-dead bashing of atheists was fully anticipated before I even turned my gaze to the first response (which unfortunately happened to be yours).


The example of communism was to show you that the atheist (humanistic) mindset goes well beyond that of selfishness and desire. Socialism is an ideology that revolves around eliminating desire and want (something a Sikh…like you claim to be…. should praise).
Is not the Langar a communal meal?…. Communism and Sikhism, aside from their superficial beliefs, have a lot more in common than initially meets the eye!

Then you throw out the example of Stalin? Again….. typical…. a fully anticipated response. After 900 posts on this site your level of argument development never fails to numb my synapses.

Stalin wasn’t a communist or a socialist…he was dictator and Czar of Russia. He was as much communist as Osama Bin Laden is a Muslim yearning for peace, As much as a child molesting bishop is a missionary of Jesus. Or as much as the fact that PRAKASH SINGH BADAL is the true ambassador of SIKHI.

“Good Ideologies are always bullet-proof” …. only when they are applied to real world scenarios is when they are corrupted by men.
Be it Sikh scriptures of the Guru’s
Be it the Communist Manifesto by Marx

The idea of there existing a perfect commune is just as UTOPIAN as the idea of there existing a perfect Religious individual or religious state. The tasks are equally utopian.

All ideologies are subject to manipulation for personal gains…. And this is a fact you cannot deny.

The only reason America has a middle class today is because of unions! The only reason America has unions is because of socialism! Believe it or not America is a socialist welfare state. With the dawn of industrial revolution it was a necessary way of lifting the working class from exploitation, alienation and poverty.

FACT: Communistic Ideology has done more for the poor than any religious movement!



There have been many selfless acts by many individuals including the Sikh Guru’s. What I am saying is; why do you label some selfless acts as holy and ‘good for humanity’ while others you brush off as less relevant?

Here is your psuedo-attempt in trying to put down another atheistic organization that has lead to the progression of humanity (just like Sikhism). And whose members have performed extremely selfless acts to help their fellow human:

You are a MALE in the 21st century, living in a developed country! You were never forced into a marriage to pay off your parent’s debt, you were not forced into a Burqa by some fundamentalist, you never had your genitals sewn shut, you were not sold off as some sex slave, you were never told “your vote doesn’t count”, you were never prohibited to leave the house without an escort. Feminists fight for rights and the only way to do this is to mobilize societies so that underprivileged women could have some empowerment. Making there voices heard…in the political sphere.
These are the very things feminists fight for! And all you have to say is “im not a big fan of feminists” ? of course your not a big fan….you think a feminists primary concern is to bash housewives? Not the case at all…their primary concern is to fight injustice.

Yes some fraction of feminist ideology does frown upon housewives (but do you know why?):
The only way any discrimination would have stopped initially is if a patriarchal society provided woman with assets …. This unfortunately was not the case and many women were completely dependant on husbands. Women had no Vote, and thus no voice … they were viewed as unequal (and this continues). What feminists fear is if woman return to this dependency stage many of the equal rights will be reverted (and they are right in this conclusion).

Feminists have done a lot more good than harm. At least you can agree on this?
The movement was a tremendous success; only to be achieved by a SELFLESS atheistic organization with largely atheist members who wished for the benefit and progression of humanity.




yea with religious propaganda!

and S1KH is wrong in many of his interpretations...he too has a polarizing veiw on religion. Religion has played a pivotal roll in the development of humanity and he fails to recognize it.

also,

To make an argument that atheist’s are selfish and self-absorbed materialists, is a statement that I find as articulate as my dog barking at the moon. (and your smart enough to know that).

cheers