Madness Of Belief In Caste: Jaat-paat

Yes, you are not wrong. While I do not espouse injustice or discrimination, not having an outsiders view, I can understand the actions and views of my forefathers and relatives. That is why I say what I do. For those who have experience of the third world, whether that be africa or asia, some will understand the irrationally strong nature of ethnic and racial distinctions. But as I said, it is a work in progress, and unlike the USA, passing a law will not overnight change a social framework set up two or three thousand years ago. But have no doubt, rapid progressive changes are taking place.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/essays-on-sikhism/14792-madness-of-belief-caste-jaat-paat.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

To your question, I think the word and term dalit is broad based. It refers to a lower caste person, and most people would not consider it merely a hindu term only. To my knowledge, eating langar with a dalit is no issue at all, although your question is interesting. I will ask what it was like 30-40 years ago and try to get you an answer. I suspect the answer would be that there was separation in the villages, although I am not aware that this is a currently practiced thing. Others who have been back recently to punjab and its villages may care to comment.

As for cop outs, I am sorry. My background is Jat and while I do not believe that my people are better than others on a person to person level, I do not refrain from admitting that I have a pride in what my people used to be and what they achieved. (Past tense applies here, they are generally useless today). And I also believe that, just as in any question of perspective or argument or debate, in the end it all depends on how you look at it. Every society and culture are different, and they are all changing all the time.

sincerely

 
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Badmash and Mary,

I don't know what the situation is in the States but here in the UK the "Sikh" caste thing has taken a ridiculous sway on the community. People have come to segregating themselves so that different castes have different Gurdwaras. This is unprecedented in Sikhism from my understanding of Sikh history. The one place where we would shed our differences is now under threat.

What you need to understand Badmash, as proud as you are of your jat background, Jatism is eroding the foundations of Sikhism. If people are happy about this then so be it. Also, you got it right when you said that what you are proud of, remains in history. I don't agree with your views about jats mainly beacuse I have met so many muslim jats in London and as I've posted before, they aren't anything like Sikh jats despite sharing the same genetics. You just seem to making excuses for casteism with your comments, nothing else. remember jats weren't really anything politically until SIkhism came along. So jats owe Sikhi alot not vice versa. And if your talking about jat freedom, you should be careful because they were pretty much "pimped" by the British for 100 odd years, fighting other people's questionable wars (i.e. opium wars in China) for rupees when, if they were so independent, they would have been using that energy to regain their own kingdom.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

Whatever you may have been told about your "history" the evidence on the ground is that the original Khalsa contained all castes of the Panjab. Contemporary records by Moghuls say as much about Banda Bahdhur's rebellion. This included so called Dalits.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

If people love their caste so much they should revert back to Hindusim or Islam or whatever pagan **** their ancestors believed in before Sikhism. That's how I feel anyway. Besides, in London at least I have met many cowardly jat sikhs who couldn't hold their own in a fight and seem to be living off their ancestors reputation. When jats get overwhelmed, they seem to have no hesitation to go and try and get support and help from other nonjat Sikh fighters, otherwise its the usual arrogant **** from them.

Screw caste in ALL its forms and the same to the backward people who promote it.

Say what you want, history does speak for itself. I usually do not getting into screw , f*** that or him, it is all childish. Inevitably, it is all bs no? Everyone thinks one is up one on the other, this is the way of hindustan and has always been so. As for 'my history' I have only one comment, and no naysaying of mud slinging can factually denounce it. There is strong historical evidence to support that if indeed the Juts had not be integral in the sikh struggle, maybe we all posting on this forum would be bowing our heads eastwards to Mecca. Then maybe we would be arguing about who is shia and sunni? As for 'Pimping', I mean apply some salve to your own behind. The Gurkhas, world famous are also big time gigolos by your standard. Are the scots big time pimps too? At least the sikhs and many 'castist' (jat and mazbi) regiments gained fame, respect and honor fighting, unlike the vast majority of the subdued and dung eating subcontinent. Why stop there? One could say all desis in the UK are agreeable to being 'pimped' by the white majority which sees them as second class citizens even today. I am being overly harsh and crass, but my point is that if you want to let your feeling go and pour it on, then any comment has a reply.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

This topic always brings to the fore this age old divide. But at least some may enjoy or come away from it with more knowledge of the issues which are put out there.

sincerely

Don't get me wrong badmash, I understand what your saying. Its just from where I'm standing now the caste thing seems to be like a ball and chain on Sikhi. It is causing internal factioning within a small community that already seems to have enormous enmity from outside that seems hell bent on destroying it or at least absorbing it in one way or another.

On top of this is the fact that in this day and age talking about caste to nonSikhs is plain embarassing. Everyone knows the Guru's position on this but we still have to make excuses for it.

When is the next step going to take place? The logical conclusion of the Sikh movement IS (to my mind) an integrated casteless society. Or how else are we different from Hindus? This whole caste thing was clearly identified by dasmesh pita as one of the core reasons why Indians were the dung eating buffons they were/are. Hence the blantant attack on it with the Amrit ceremony. Being whatever caste never seemed to help Panjabis prior to Sikhisms emergence. As I'm sure you know, Panjab was a dung eating pitstop for every muslim invader for centuries. Plus half of the jats converted to Islam anyway. Maybe what we do have is a process of genetic selection where those Jats that were independent minded and more liberal in their outlook converted to Sikhs whilst the conservative remained Hindu and the cowardly converted to Islam. So the talk of jat characteristics may be flawed but what we may have had is a certain type of jat that joined Sikhism. On top of that is the fact that the ideological motivation to overcome the ****** against all odds warefare that took place during the 1700s wasn't the product of Jat culture but due to Sikh ideology.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

No one is trying to deny the strong contribution jats have made in Sikh society but we need to focus on today and tommorow. Practicing a form of aparteid within Sikhism is no way to go forward.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

We are the youngest major religion around. We should have a new message for the world that is strongly needed in this day and age. Casteism in Sikhism to me seems like an ugly streak of hypocrisy in all of this.

But as ever we remain in chardhi kala that things in the long term will work out for the better.

Let waheguru guide the panth in the right direction if it feels so inclined. What we don't want is implode from our own nonsense. I quoted something I say in that Apocolypto movie before, I still think it is an important point so forgive me for quoting it again.

"No civilisation has been destroyed from without until they had destroyed themselves from within"

Anyway, enough of this sombre stuff. I'm sure we both in our own different ways want our thing to prosper.

I agree with you 100%.

Indeed, it is our inability to close ranks that has, does and will do us in in the future. And of course you are right, Sikhism goes to the essence of humanity, and is not appropriately practiced by those centered on things skin deep.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

Let us hope that newer generations can get on with disseminating the value and universality (?sic) of Sikhism, and may they be proud for the right reasons, and not the more base ones.

Sat Sri Akal!

dalsing ji and badmash ji ,

Thanks to you both so much!!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

I was about to write a scathing reply that if two Sikhs can't show at least civility, if not respect among yourselves, how can you hope to teach the world the beautiful things I am finding in Sikhism. (The world really needs these things.) You know, like social justice and equality love and respect for one another.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14792

Then you two decided that it's better to show some unity instead of fighting. I guess I am beginning to learn.

But I pray that caste never really makes sense to me.

Now can we all go eat ice cream?

Mary

That is absolutely not true. Open your eyes and look around.Do not judge by the name of the Gurdwara. Find out who are controlling it. Mostly those are the people who count them as upper class Sikhs (Brahaman Sikhs).You know what I mean!