Ek Omkar?

Narayanjot Kaur · #28 (**permalink**) 30-Dec-2007, 02:26 AM

Balbir ji

Varr 39, Pauree 1, Line 1

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥ (Bhai Gurdas)

satigur prasaadi ॥ (English phonetic transliteration)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/discourses-in-english/8304-ek-omkar.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8304

This is how he wrote it. We don't know how he pronounced it because there are no tape recordings or audio files. Though I think International Akaali ji was making a different point some comments earlier.

Narayanjot Kaur · #29 (**permalink**) 30-Dec-2007, 02:47 AM

Here however is another thought in the same Vaar that might make sense of things.

ਅੰਬਾਂ ਸਧਰ ਨ ਉਤਰੈ ਆਣਿ ਅੰਬਾਕੜੀਆਂ ਜੇ ਖਾਏ ।
anbaan sadhar n utarai aani anbaakarheeaan jay khaaay|

By eating mango blossoms the desire for eating mangoes is not fulfilled.

Bhai Gurdas, Vaar 39, Pauree 20, line 3

Narayanjot Kaur · #30 (**permalink**) 30-Dec-2007, 10:13 AM

Balbir ji

My hunch is that International Akaali ji was not referring to the two particular lines you have quoted. He may have been referring to the vaar as a whole -- with the invocation at the beginning giving the Gurmukhi spelling.

I have my own opinions about arguments about pronunciation based on the English phonetic transliteration. It is kind of futile -- because these transliterations are not based on Gurmukhi phonetic rules but English phonetic rules that are being used to create the transliteration. But for now I don't plan to get into that issue.

Narayanjot Kaur · #31 (**permalink**) 30-Dec-2007, 10:28 AM

Also,

The true Gurus have never given any instruction to read <> Ikonkaar. Nobody knows when and why Sikhs have started doing so. They probably started when the shabads were first written as manuscripts. And they probably recited the shabads more than they read them initially. Manuscripts were not numerous. The Adi Granth was not compiled until the 4th Guru. I feel the true Gurus have written so much. They could guide giving an instruction to write <>but reading it Ikonkaar.

I am not sure why this is a concern for you. Once the shabads were grouped together in the Adi Granth, reading all the shabads would be a natural thing to do. If your shabads are all together in one book, then reading it would be a normal human reaction. If you mean reading <> as Ikonkaar, instead of some other pronunciation -- why would they give instructions? This may sound somewhat naive -- but don't you think they all knew how to pronounce it? So there would not be any reason to go back over old ground.

Sikh missionaries are otherwise very strict in pronouncing Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee correctly though. Not only Sikh missionaries. Mispronunciation can make one word sound like another word-- leading to incorrect understanding. The Dandami were created to teach the Shabad -- including correct pronunication.

Balbir Singh[/quote]

drkhalsa · #32 (**permalink**) 30-Dec-2007, 12:26 PM

Dear Balbir Singh ji

Satsriakal!

Quote:

The beginning part of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is not explaining God, in my experience. Please ponder. Is it possible to express God through written words of a language whose true Nature is inexpressible Truth?

first part which is also popularly known as Mool Mantar - are you refering this

May be it says about the attributes of God if not god itself .
In my understanding we can talk about god using the attributes

please share what is your experience regarding this

Jatinder SIngh

Narayanjot Kaur · #33 (**permalink**) 31-Dec-2007, 01:15 AM

Balbir ji

Glad we agree on some things. Don't know how much value to attribute to anything posted by me. Just impressions. And have to admit that I more than a little confused right now.

Here are 2 vaaks from Vaar 39.

ੴ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਪ੍ਰਸਾਦਿ ॥

satigur prasaadi ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8304
One Oankar, the primal energy, realized through the grace of divine preceptor
Line 1

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਇਕਾਂਗ ਲਿਖਿ ਊੜਾ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਾਇਆ ।
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8304
aykankaaru ikaang|ikhi oorhaa aoankaaru|ikhaaiaa|
That homogenous supreme reality (God) ) first was written as numeral one mulmantr – the credal formula) and then He was inscribed as Ura syllable of Gurmukhi, further pronounced as Oankar.
Line 2

Happy New Year Balbir ji.

Narayanjot Kaur · #34 (**permalink**) 31-Dec-2007, 05:30 AM

Respected Balbir ji

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

Strange, Guru Arjan Dev Jee ignored the wishes of writing Oankaar after Ura. Sri Guru Gobind Singh Jee also overlooked the writings of Bhai Gurdas Jee and did not write Oankaar after the numeral one and Ura.

What is good enough for Guru Arjan Dev and Sri Guru Gobind Singh Rai is good enough for me. Bhai Gurdas remains in my opinion (only my opinion) the pre-eminent reference for better understanding of Bani per Gurmat. I always check the vaars of Bhai Gurdas when I need more.

Your independent spirit remains intact. My guess -- God's hukam.

Interesting, the tradition of Bhai Gurdas Jee is animated today in mind and rituals of Sikhs through dedicated preachers.
Who is taking care of the true Guru's values?

A loaded question I think. Just about every animated forum member here on SPN believes that he/she is taking care of the Guru's values. You are not alone.

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਇਕਾਂਗ ਲਿਖਿ ਊੜਾ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਾਇਆ ।
aykankaaru ikaang|ikhi oorhaa aoankaaru|ikhaaiaa|

Quote "That homogenous supreme reality (God) ) first was written as numeral one mulmantr – the credal formula) and then He was inscribed as Ura syllable of Gurmukhi, further pronounced as Oankar."
May I ask why Preachers are not reciting 'Ik Ura Oankaar' as written by Bhai Gurdas Jee?

The entire vaar - Vaar 39 - explains this. Which is what International Akaali was trying to explain.

According to your words - Not My Words. I am not that smart.

Words of Bhai Gurdas -- mulmantra begins with numeral one and then the Ura syllable further written and pronounced Oankaar because Bhai Gurdas Jee has written it.
Bhai Gurdas Jee writes in his Vaar 6-19-2 that mulmantra is 'sati naamu kartaa purakhu' Vaar 6-19-2.
Guru Naanak dev Jee, the revered Guru of Sikhs, says that 'mulmantra is Hari Naam Rasaayan' Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1040-19.
Please explain. Whom should Sikhs listen truly?

As a Sikh of the Shabad Guru, I listen to the Shabad of the Guru.

I don't know who others listen to. Can't speak for the others.

Quote "Happy New Year Balbir ji."
Happy New Christian Year to Aad0002 Jee too.

Why do you dismiss Christians?

What else can I say?

Balbir Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #35 (**permalink**) 31-Dec-2007, 07:41 AM

Respected Balbir ji

As much as I am enjoying this exchange, later tonight I have to listen to Bhai Sukha Singh Nihang ji sing on Sikhnet. He gives the audio translation and katha in English for the Daily Hukamnama.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Balbir Singh

Pray Truth for all and say Satsriakaal!
Dear all and Aad0002 Jee!

And tonight is one of the nights I do seva by transcribing the hukam for the English speaking audience. So I will be listening to Guru sing and Sukha sing (a little joke) at the same time, and won't be able to return to SPN until tomorrow. I am also bragging a little.

Quote "Bhai Gurdas remains in my opinion (only my opinion) the pre-eminent reference for better understanding of Bani per Gurmat. I always check the vaars of Bhai Gurdas when I need more."
I am sorry for all who prefer to receive advice from Bhai Gurdas Jee.

But Veer Balbir ji,
It is your choice to do what you say above. No one would deny you your right to make this decision.

This is another example why I find his writings totally different from the true Gurus.
Bhai Gurdas Jee is explaining who is a Sikh in this Vaak from his Vaar 6-8-5.
ਘਰ ਬਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਿਖਾ ਸੂਤ੍ਰ ਮਲ ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਡਾਣੈ ।
ghar baaree gur sikhu hoi sikhaa sootr mal mootr vidaanai|

OK, Veer ji. This is the line you refer to.

ਘਰ ਬਾਰੀ ਗੁਰ ਸਿਖੁ ਹੋਇ ਸਿਖਾ ਸੂਤ੍ਰ ਮਲ ਮੂਤ੍ਰ ਵਿਡਾਣੈ ।
ghar baaree gur sikhu hoi sikhaa sootr mal mootr vidaanai|
The sikh being a householder abnegates tonsure,the sacred thread ( Janeau), etc and forsakes them like abdominable faeces.
Line 5

I confess to ignorance. What is the connection between this line and the rest of the thread? Sometimes I need to have things spelled out for me.

Quote "A loaded question I think. Just about every animated forum member here on SPN believes that he/she is taking care of the Guru's values. You are not alone."
O Really! Some seem taking more care of other writers than the true Gurus, in my observation.

Quote "The entire vaar - Vaar 39 - explains this.

Let me reword my answer. Which is what International Akaali was trying to explore with you when he suggested you read the entire Vaar, instead of a few lines.

ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਇਕਾਂਗ ਲਿਖਿ ਊੜਾ ਓਅੰਕਾਰੁ ਲਿਖਾਇਆ ।
ਸਤਿਨਾਮੁ ਕਰਤਾ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਨਿਰਭਉ ਹੋਇ ਨਿਰਵੈਰੁ ਸਦਾਇਆ ।
I hope you know Gurmukhee. Please explain. One should pronounce which word 'ik aoonkaar' from Bhai Gurdas Jee's above lines as referred by International Akaali Jee. I will be grateful.

You are overly focused on these two lines. When International ji wrote them he was making a different but related point. Later he referred you to the entire vaar, not just one or two lines, so one would grasp the whole of Bhai Vardas' message.

May I ask? Bhai Gurdas Jee did not live during Guru Gobind Singh Jee's time. Why in his Vaar 39-4-1 he has mentioned Guru Gobind Singh Jee, that also as Guru Gobind but not Guru Gobind Singh?
ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਪੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ਚੇਲਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਹੋਆ ।
gur govindu khudaai peer guru chaylaa chaylaa guru hoaa|

Veer Balbir ji,

This what Bhai Gurdas is saying in the vaar.

ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਪੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ਚੇਲਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਹੋਆ ।
gur govindu khudaai peer guru chaylaa chaylaa guru hoaa|
Guru Hargobind is the Lord in the form of Guru. Earlier a disciple he is now a. Guru i.e. earlier Gurus and Guru Hargobind are the same.

He is talking about Guru Hargobind -- and calling him gur govindu. Govindu means in this line - "Seed of the Universe" not Guru Gobind Singh Rai

Quote "As a Sikh of the Shabad Guru, I listen to the Shabad of the Guru. I don't know who others listen to. Can't speak for the others."
Please explain. When did you listen, Gurdev suggesting Sikhs to read <> Ik Oankaar?

The transliteration is based on English sound or phonetic rules. So trying to discuss what someone hears from a written version of the same thing is a waste of time. What one sees and what one hears are not the same thing.

Quote "Why do you dismiss Christians? What else can I say?"
I greet all happiness on the eve of the Christian year with love. I will try to improve my English next to greet all on other occasions, promise.

Christians will rejoice! They always rejoice.

Balbir Singh

Narayanjot Kaur · #36 (**permalink**) 31-Dec-2007, 09:19 AM

Balbir ji,

Back because the hukmnama was a repeat of several other dates. So my seva was very short.
_____________________________________

The importance of reading more than just one line of a shabad is very clear when we consider one of the lines from Bhai Gurdas that is at issue in your previous post #41 and which I attempt to answer in post #42.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8304

This line
Vaar 39 Pauri 4

ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਪੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ਚੇਲਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਹੋਆ ।
gur govindu khudaai peer guru chaylaa chaylaa guru hoaa|
Guru Hargobind is the Lord in the form of Guru. Earlier a disciple he is now a. Guru i.e. earlier Gurus and Guru Hargobind are the same.
Line 1

Why does Bhai Gurdas in Vaar 39 Pauree 4 line 1 use the term "gur govindu" , but the translator translates "gur govindu" to refer to Guru Hargobind? Why in the Gumukhi do we not see the name of Guru Hargobind in Line 1 at all? What we see is "gur govindu." And why did I say that "gur govindu" refers to seed of the universe (or Guru, Seed of the Universe), and not to Guru Gobind Singh Rai? Because we are supposed to make the connection that Guru Hargobind is also the seed of the universe.

The translator is taking liberties with the line as translators do. It is not a mistake, but a decision made for the understanding of English speakers. To understand what is going on we have to go back to the previous pauree, Pauree 3 of Vaar 39.

It starts as follows:

ਦਸਤਗੀਰ ਹੁਇ ਪੰਜ ਪੀਰ ਹਰਿ ਗੁਰੁ ਹਰਿ ਗੋਬਿੰਦੁ ਅਤੋਲਾ ।
dasatageer hui panj peer hari guru hari gobindu atolaa|
The first five Gurus held the hands of the people and the sixth Guru Hargobind is incomparable God-Guru.
Line 1

Now Bhai Gurdas says "hari gobindu" -- but we know that " hari gobindu" has to be Guru Hargobind, because he is the only one who was the 6th Guru. And hari gobindu = Hargobind.

Bhai Gurdas is next establishing that Hargobind is on an equal footing with the previous 5 gurus. How? Because Hargobind is all these things:

ਦੀਨ ਦੁਨੀ ਦਾ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹਾਂ ਪਾਤਿਸਾਹੁ ਅਡੋਲਾ ।
deen dunee daa paatisaahu paatisaahaan paatisaahu adolaa|
He is the king of spirituality as well as temporality and is in fact irremovable emperor of all the kings.
Line 2

ਪੰਜ ਪਿਆਲੇ ਅਜਰੁ ਜਰਿ ਹੋਇ ਮਸਤਾਨ ਸੁਜਾਣ ਵਿਚੋਲਾ ।
panj piaalay ajaru jari hoi masataan sujaan vicholaa|
Assimilating the unbearable knowledge of the earlier five cups (Gurus) in the inner core of his mind he re,mains merry and wise mediator for humanity.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=8304
Line 3

ਤੁਰੀਆ ਚੜ੍ਹਿ ਜਿਣਿ ਪਰਮਤਤੁ ਛਿਅ ਵਰਤਾਰੇ ਕੋਲੋ ਕੋਲਾ ।
tureeaa charhhi jini paramatatu chhia varataaray kolo kolaa|
In spite of the six philosophies spread around, he reaching the turiyä (highest stage of meditation) has attained the supreme reality.

Line 4
ਛਿਅ ਦਰਸਣੁ ਛਿਅ ਪੀੜ੍ਹੀਆਂ ਇਕਸੁ ਦਰਸਣੁ ਅੰਦਰਿ ਗੋਲਾ ।
chhia darasanu chhia peerhheeaan ikasu darasanu andari golaa|
He has strung all the six philosophies and their sects in the strung of one philosophy.

The pauree ends with this line.

ਅੰਤਰਜਾਮੀ ਬਾਲਾ ਭੋਲਾ ॥੩॥
antarajaamee baalaa bholaa ॥3॥
This Guru is omniscient yet he possesses a childlike innocence.

Then we go onto the first line of Pauri 4. The line where you take Bhai Gurdas to task. And again Line 1 is repeated below.

Vaar 39 Pauri 4

ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦੁ ਖੁਦਾਇ ਪੀਰ ਗੁਰੁ ਚੇਲਾ ਚੇਲਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਹੋਆ ।
gur govindu khudaai peer guru chaylaa chaylaa guru hoaa|
Guru Hargobind is the Lord in the form of Guru. Earlier a disciple he is now a. Guru i.e. earlier Gurus and Guru Hargobind are the same.
Line 1

Although the translator refers to Guru Hargobind, the line actually says "gur govindu" I am sorry for repeating myself. Hargobind must be a Guru who is the seed of the universe. And who else could it be? It can only be Guru Hargobind. Why? because Pauree 3 and Pauree 4 are all about Guru Hargobind.

And why is Guru Hargobind "gur govindu", the seed of the universe. Because he is also these things:

ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਆਕਾਰੁ ਕਰਿ ਏਕੰਕਾਰੁ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਪਲੋਆ ।
nirankaar aakaaru kari aykankaaru akaaru paloaa|
First, the formless Lord assumed the form of the Ekarikar and later he created all the forms (i.e. universe).
Line 2

ਓਅੰਕਾਰਿ ਅਕਾਰਿ ਲਖ ਲਖ ਦਰੀਆਉ ਕਰੇਂਦੇ ਢੋਆ ।
aoankaari akaari|akh|akh dareeaau karaynday ddhoaa|
In the form of Oatikär (Guru) lacs of streams of life take shelter.
Line 3

So Bhai Gurdas is not referring to Guru Gobind Singh Rai. Rather the translator is substituting the name of Guru Hargobind for the words “gur govindu.” We can relax.