Life is Easier Without Karma - a Discussion

Ishna · #46 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 19:16 PM

The first half of the 37th paurhi of Japji Sahib (Ang 7) says:

ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰੁ ॥
Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor.
No one else dwells there,

ਤਿਥੈ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰ ॥
Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr.
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ ॥
Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr.
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

ਤਿਥੈ ਸੀਤੋ ਸੀਤਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi.
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਕਥਨੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi.
Their beauty cannot be described.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/38889-life-is-easier-without-karma-discussion.html

ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਨ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.
within whose minds the Lord abides.

ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ ॥
Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38889
Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

Does it mean 'in the realm of karma' as a cause/effect mechanism, or karma as in 'in the real of actions'?

The word 'karma' seems to have more than one meaning?

Randip Singh · #47 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 19:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Embers

I also hold Karma as true.

If it's true then by definition you must believe in the caste system which Sikhism rejects.

Do you believe in the caste system as well?

Embers · #48 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 20:03 PM

Firstly, may I say it is a privilege to be able to learn more about Buddhism from you Confused Ji. I feel we are only scratching the surface of your insight.

I would like to delve deeper into the epistemology which you touched on above, as I think this where we are going with the inquiry into anatta and atman. Unfortunately I have to complete an assignment this month and I will have to spend less time on the forum in the comings weeks so I will need to hold back from pressing you for answers going forward. Perhaps we can take this topic up in the future, sorry.

Thanks for the answers on ‘intention’, concept and reality and the correction to the misunderstanding on your earlier point on karma. Intention without karma is the part which fascinates me the most so I am interested in the functional consciousness of the Arahat too and what lies at the heart of the actions of an Arahat so that they do not generate karma.

I owe a response to your main questions, because I think it will help leave this topic closed for the moment (although the answers may raise questions).

Quote:

Originally Posted by Confused

1) And this means that you are convinced about the truth of Atman?

2) We cannot detect but we can understand. Why do you think that the development of the Path requires coming to be aware of a single unit of consciousness?

3) The fourth of the Four Noble Truths is the Noble Eightfold Path. This is a Path of understanding and not of coming to see individual consciousness which is impossible anyway, due to the very nature of the consciousness process. Besides, what you are saying has the implication that the development of wisdom begins only after seeing individual consciousness rise and fall, and this does not make sense, does it?

4) Also with all levels of understanding is the mental factor of saddha or confidence / faith, are you saying that this cannot arise for one who does not see individual consciousness rise and fall away?

5) This is not right is it, given that you approach the teachings in order to understand and then suddenly appeal to empirical evidence to judge whether or not the Buddha was right?

6) And since you refer to the need for evidence, why don’t you show me the evidence for permanence and atman?

1) I seem convinced that consciousness does not change. I consider consciousness to be synonymous with the Atman in this respect and hence I am inclined to confirm that I am convinced of the Atman. (God is a slightly different topic).

2) Agreed. We can understand, we can see with an inner eye, so to speak. I do not believe Buddhism needs to start with consciousness, be it single unit or as the Buddha explains as subject to anicca. My earlier observation came from my brief study of Theravada and is one reason I felt I felt was an area of concern for me and raised it with you.

3) I agree it doesn’t make sense to believe that wisdom begins with Consciousness. One can study the four noble truths and the eightfold noble path and it will lead to its own end (nirvana) and wisdom.

4) I am sure faith plays a role in Buddhism and other religions. It only matters to the view of the teaching as to how the being/aspirant sees consciousness.

5) I am not a Buddhist so I am not seeking to prove Buddha right or wrong. I have the utmost respect for his Dhamma. The reason I refer to empirical evidence is that it is ‘me’ who needs to understand. I do not need another to understand me or persuade me, hence I was seeking for empirical evidence in my being.

6) For clarity, I am not here to convince others of my views. Rather I would like to learn more about Sikhism, which is why I am posting here, using my views as a sounding board to receive criticism, correction and help to my answers. That said, I have no desire to convince anyone of the Atman (if convincing someone were even possible).

The reasoning for why I am not a Buddhist might be called ignorance by Buddhists, that is fine too. When I turned to Buddhism to understand it, it was for a different reason than to end suffering for myself. What attracted me to Theravada was that it does not require Varna. I learnt that there are over 166 Million

Dalit

Dalits (untouchables) and I wanted to understand Buddhism further in respect to their position. Varna is something I feel I need to understand better as it overlaps into social and political spheres it seems.

Best wishes. peacesignkaur

Embers · #49 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 20:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Randip Singh

If it's true then by definition you must believe in the caste system which Sikhism rejects.

Do you believe in the caste system as well?

Dear Randip Singh Ji
Thanks for picking up on that. The answer is NO. I do not believe in Varna or caste.

So why do I hold Karma as true?

It is true as long as there is ego. Ego is not evil, but ego leads to harm. Ego is the creation of Akaal Purat, and hence to see it as evil would be to judge God's creation as evil or good. It is not my wish to judge God's creation (or God).

So whilst there is ego and a sense of doership there will be karma. But karma is cause and effect. If I drink cola I will get fat (my body is prone to weight gain). So I have a karmic choice: drink cola or not drink cola. Whilst I hold there is an ego there will be result and I will feel that result e.g. fatness and with it suffering is likely. Suffering on the tread mill and suffering in my mind.

So karma is relatively true, it lasts as long as the ego.

If I dissolve the ego in His naam then there is no karma, there is only change. There are only things happening to the body-mind-intellect. There is no doer at the highest level, no accumulator of karma and hence no karma.

None the less, Karma is used by the Guru's in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji (in English at least), so I see a dilemma for Sikhism:

Page 2, Line 5
ਕਰਮੀ ਆਵੈ ਕਪੜਾ ਨਦਰੀ ਮੋਖੁ ਦੁਆਰੁ ॥
करमी आवै कपड़ा नदरी मोखु दुआरु ॥
Karmī āvai kapṛā naḏrī mokẖ ḏu▫ār.
By the karma of past actions, the robe of this physical body is obtained. By His Grace, the Gate of Liberation is found.
Guru Nanak Dev

Page 8, Line 3
ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
करम खंड की बाणी जोरु ॥
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.
Guru Nanak Dev

Page 128, Line 16
ਹਉਮੈ ਕਰੈ ਨਿਹਕਰਮੀ ਨ ਹੋਵੈ ॥
हउमै करै निहकरमी न होवै ॥
Ha▫umai karai nihkarmī na hovai.
Those who act in ego do not go beyond karma.
Guru Amar Das

I hope that answers your question? peacesignkaur

Embers · #50 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 20:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

The first half of the 37th paurhi of Japji Sahib (Ang 7) says:

ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰੁ ॥
Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor.
No one else dwells there,

ਤਿਥੈ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰ ॥
Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr.
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ ॥
Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr.
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

ਤਿਥੈ ਸੀਤੋ ਸੀਤਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi.
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਕਥਨੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi.
Their beauty cannot be described.

ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਨ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.
within whose minds the Lord abides.

ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ ॥
Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥
Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

Does it mean 'in the realm of karma' as a cause/effect mechanism, or karma as in 'in the real of actions'?

The word 'karma' seems to have more than one meaning?

Dear Ishna Ji
Yes, I believe you are right! My personal view is that Karma is a mere term for the cause and effect mechanism. It is a way to explain why an apple drops from the tree rather than floats in the air (or why things happen from actions).

My view is that there is only karma for those who believe they are the doer of the actions and the reaper of their results. Those who are not bound by karma are "the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes." The verse explains why.

Best wishes!

Archived_member14 · #51 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 20:26 PM

Embers ji,

Thanks for your response.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=38889
I'd like to suggest if you don't mind, that we begin again when you come back, with the reality / concept distinction. And go very slowly with this.

Embers · #52 (**permalink**) 08-Aug-2012, 20:35 PM

Thank you for your patience, Confused Ji. I have made a note of your email, should you wish to delete it from public view (stop spambots).

harry haller · #53 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 01:10 AM

Quote:

One thing I like very much about your posts is that you see that there should be no significant change as such, because all this is already no duality; the Lord is and continues to Be regardless if we chip away at ideas and philosophy. It is somewhat like going around in a circle of ideas, is it not?

oh yes!

Quote:

So what is the reason for all this beautiful Bani?

it makes the circles smaller

Luckysingh · #54 (**permalink**) 09-Aug-2012, 08:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ishna

The first half of the 37th paurhi of Japji Sahib (Ang 7) says:

ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

ਤਿਥੈ ਹੋਰੁ ਨ ਕੋਈ ਹੋਰੁ ॥
Ŧithai hor na ko▫ī hor.
No one else dwells there,

ਤਿਥੈ ਜੋਧ ਮਹਾਬਲ ਸੂਰ ॥
Ŧithai joḏẖ mahābal sūr.
except the warriors of great power, the spiritual heroes.

ਤਿਨ ਮਹਿ ਰਾਮੁ ਰਹਿਆ ਭਰਪੂਰ ॥
Ŧin mėh rām rahi▫ā bẖarpūr.
They are totally fulfilled, imbued with the Lord's Essence.

ਤਿਥੈ ਸੀਤੋ ਸੀਤਾ ਮਹਿਮਾ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Ŧithai sīṯo sīṯā mahimā māhi.
Myriads of Sitas are there, cool and calm in their majestic glory.

ਤਾ ਕੇ ਰੂਪ ਨ ਕਥਨੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Ŧā ke rūp na kathne jāhi.
Their beauty cannot be described.

ਨਾ ਓਹਿ ਮਰਹਿ ਨ ਠਾਗੇ ਜਾਹਿ ॥
Nā ohi marėh na ṯẖāge jāhi.
Neither death nor deception comes to those,

ਜਿਨ ਕੈ ਰਾਮੁ ਵਸੈ ਮਨ ਮਾਹਿ ॥
Jin kai rām vasai man māhi.
within whose minds the Lord abides.

ਤਿਥੈ ਭਗਤ ਵਸਹਿ ਕੇ ਲੋਅ ॥
Ŧithai bẖagaṯ vasėh ke lo▫a.
The devotees of many worlds dwell there.

ਕਰਹਿ ਅਨੰਦੁ ਸਚਾ ਮਨਿ ਸੋਇ ॥
Karahi anand sacẖā man so▫e.
They celebrate; their minds are imbued with the True Lord.

Does it mean 'in the realm of karma' as a cause/effect mechanism, or karma as in 'in the real of actions'?

The word 'karma' seems to have more than one meaning?

Ishnaji,
I'll try my best to make it a little easier, although Embersji has done so quite well above...

The Word is in reference to the realm of karma.

ਕਰਮ ਖੰਡ ਕੀ ਬਾਣੀ ਜੋਰੁ ॥
Karam kẖand kī baṇī jor.
In the realm of karma, the Word is Power.

ie.. it has it's own words that define it, we can't demand good or bad karma as such. But only through actions and experience.
Our words don't have the power, but the word within karma has this power.

NOTE- it is NOT power is the word.
The bani or word within or the Guru's word defining the karma is what has the power.

In my opinion this can also be taken to mean that the Ultimate power that can shape or mould karam is the word of the Guru's shabad !