Sikhs & Multiculturalism in UK

You are right that 2 gurus rejected the veil.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/controversies/14386-sikhs-and-multiculturalism-in-uk.html

The post above does not satisfy my objections regarding a slippery slope that curtails expression of religion.

We are now looking at 4 or 5 countries in Europe who are clamping down on religious garb.

Let's go beyond the myopic.
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[QUOTE=kaur-1;47031]Sikhs & Multiculturalism in Uk
From Veil to Kirpan…..
By Jagjit Singh.................................................. ..........

Pyare jio, a couple of days ago Tony Blair made a very dramatic statement with regard to issue of muslim women wearing veils, in his monthly news conference. Due to large number of news stories on that day, many people may have missed this statement. He said it is “a mark of separation”. This is quite a dramatic use of words by a Labour leader, and gives complete backing to the path which has been set by the former Foreign Minister, Jack Straw. Tony Blair is a trained lawyer and has clear intention behind his use of words.


Explain what exactly...he had the courage to speak out against Sharia ?

Many Sikhs are disregarding what is happening in UK, as just a “muslim problem”. The daily onslaught on news stories against muslims, is seen by some as something they have instigated themselves, or part of a larger West vs Islam confrontation. Many Sikhs who have grown up in UK, have had bad experiences with muslims, and do lack sympathy for their current situation. We tend to disassociate ourselves from them and are uncomfortable with the word “asian”.

Asian does NOT exist. Perhaps reading the Quran clearly and look at the criminality figures. 4 % muslim population....13% Prision population !!!!! Perhaps a theological/cultural causes so many to be in prison. !! FACTS


The attacks of 9/11 changed the world. The attitudes in the West changed from being dominant with liberal attitudes, to one which dominated by conservative attitudes. Multiculturalism had flourished in UK, and many ethnic groups won rights which made them at ease with UK. In many areas, multi-culturalism has been celebrated to promote an area. The most prominent being the London bid for the Olympics, in which London was shown as the most diverse city, proud of its ethnic minorities.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386

The attacks were by Muslims...supported by Muslims...Dont think the the Jamacian Jardies were behing this, dont think the Sikhs blew up the undergroud, couldnt see the Buddists blowing up Glasgow airport ? ....Perhaps the jains were responsible for the real IRA attacks......URHHHH...Who did what ? Every Japanese,Vietnamese,Sikh...etc.....THIS WAS NOT ASIAN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!


However the subsequent attack of 7/7 and the general bad press of Islam have hardened attitudes against muslims. But its impact will be felt by other ethnic minorities, because UK has moved from a stance of “lets celebrate the distinctiveness of others” to one of “is their distinctiveness a threat to social integration?”

Rubbish. Absolute rubbish. Integration is not a problem. When there is an under current of hate and I am a Harbi or an Infidel as you are....WHO blows themself up ? WHO doesnt intergrate ...who ????


For either, Jack straw or Tony Blair to make such comments before would have been political suicide. But they are well aware that these comments are very populist. For example on Radio 5, a national radio station, Jack Straw received 95% support for his stance that muslim women should remove their veils in front of him.

No they realise that if you have a youth culture that supports Bin Laden, supports the Umah..supports the evil...How long will it take you to realise ...this is not a race issue....


Where does this leave Sikhs?

Our own choice...Its not Islam v West.....Its Islam v the world


Just as ALL the Gurus realised !!!!!!!!!!


The day after Tony Blairs comment, the Independent newspaper had a special insert where it compared the muslim hijab or veil to that of the Christian cross, Jewish top cap and Sikh Turban. What we have to wake up to is that this debate is taking place in the arena of Islam vs West, but in fact it is eroding the core principles of multiculturalism. It is now common to hear political commentators stating the multiculturalism has failed in UK. Has it really? I sincerely hope not…

YES IT HAS IF there are Sharia zones in London, Yes If I cant eat Yam and goat curry, yes If women have to walk around in black potato sacks

But it leaves the question…If a veil is a “mark of separation” and “makes people outside the community feel uncomfortable” as Tony Blair states, then does the Sikh Turban do the same?


The viel is nothing to do with Gods will.....It is the control of women by a barbaric cult that demands to use our freedom laws to hurt the weak !!!
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386

This leads to more questions….Is religious expression a right? By wearing religious symbols are we less British? Do religious symbols pose a threat to social integration?

Social integration ? Forcing Sharia courts and forcing the viel...THIS IS ONE UK I will fight never to see. Any Sikh would realise that NO GURU has nor would accept these demands.

In the case of veils, Sikhism rejects the wearing of veils. Sahib Siri Guru Amar das ji specifically asked women from muslim backgrounds who attended his congregations to remove their veils, before entering the darbaar. Ideologically, I reject the veil as a means of suitable dress code for a male or female. However, I do feel sympathetic to any young woman who wishes to wear one, but is now seen as an instigator of social disharmony in UK by that choice. These young muslim women are not downtrodden as portrayed in the media. In fact, they are often highly intelligent and confident young women who just wish to physically display their pride in their faith. This is no different to young Sikh men who wear Dumallas (large turbans) and young sikh women who wears Keskis (turbans). My Dummalla (turban) and my beard are religious symbols that make me complete distinct within British society, and this something we are intentionally proud of wearing. I have never seen my dumalla as a threat to social integration, and in fact, I have never had any problems integrating into any part of society.

French Policy & UK Policy?

However what does ring alarm bells, is how easily people are taking the veils issue and comparing it with that of the Christian cross, Jewish cap and Sikh Turban. Many European countries are concerned with the population growth within Muslims, and see that as a threat to social harmony within their country. At times, they are targeting Islam directly, and others indirectly as a response. France has put in place policies which will make muslims a social under-class by denying them education if the refuse to remove the hijab. However they have clubbed Sikhs into this regardless of the contribution of Sikhs in WW1 & WW2. As a result Sikh children are not attending school if they refuse to remove turbans and patkas. This is purely a side effect of a policy against muslims.

In UK, Sikhs are far more secure. Although multiculturalism as a policy is under threat, its impact is probably irreversible. However we do need to look at where is Labour going with this issue of veils? Is there a distinct policy behind the comments of Jack Straw, or is this political pandering to populism rather than political ideals. If it is just populism, then that is far more dangerous than a clear government policy, because then path is out of control, with an un-known destination.

From Veil to Kirpan…

Many people in UK have become used to Sikh Turbans. We do not suffer from the same ignorance as those Sikhs who live in USA, where ever turban wearing person is seen as Bin laden.

However one does wonder if the Veil is so controversial, how long will it take for the media to pick up on the Kirpan? Now that it is open season on religious symbols, Sikhs in UK may well find themselves up against a populist stance by politicians against the Kirpan. Certainly we will find politicians and press far less sympathetic to the religious right to the Kirpan.

Maybe more Sikhs and sikh leaders need to be more vocal on this onslaught against multiculturalism, and see its impact as far bigger than mere Islamophobia.


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Ok Now we have yet another 90 degree change of direction..Lionsingh ji, would you write a brief summary of your opinion. Keeping in mind that I am not the author of the article. What in your mind are the major points made in the article. What is a brief summary of your own reaction in relation to the starter article. Brief. Concise. Thanks

Lets start over again by not assuming that I hold opinions and make assumptions to me that I never made. You are reacting as if I wrote the starter article. That only contributes to confusion. I requested you respond to the starter article. Response deleted.

To answer the question, the article tries to draw a parallel with the restrictions on the veil to that of the kirpan. It makes a pathetic attempt to implore us to protect the right of the veil/burka to scare-monger us in thinking the same will happen to the turban/kirpan.

The article tries to equate successful multi-culturalisim being dependent on the change in attitudes to the veil and burqa and an opposition to that.

The article attempts to connect the veil to sikhism with very poor Anecdotal Evidence..if it can be called as such. The Author states "This is no different to young Sikh men who wear Dumallas (large turbans) and young sikh women who wears Keskis (turbans)"

This is completely wrong. The Gurus were completely against the veil !!!

“The veil of falsehood shall be torn down from within you, and Truth shall come to dwell in the mind.” Guru Gobind Ji

The veil is a cultural concept that has been imposed on women who rarely have a choice. It is as if thought they are at fault for their beauty !!!

"A Sikh casting his eyes upon the beautiful womenfolk of families other than his own regards them as his mothers, sisters and daughters." Bhai Gurdas

The article professes, like the apologists, that then veil/burqa is a free choice by women !!! This is utterly false !!!

Indeed, the overwhelming majority of Muslims throughout the world do not believe the burqa/veil is a mandated Islamic prescription. Not only is there a remarkable absence of textual evidence in the Qur’an and prophetic traditions for this heightened brand of religious modesty, but many Muslim scholars go so far as to discourage wearing the burqa/veil because of its alienating effect vis-à-vis non-Muslims. Few are aware that the conservative Damascene jurist, Ibn Taymiyyah (1263–1328), discouraged Muslims living in majority non-Muslims lands to dress in a manner that was distinct from their compatriots.

It is no doubt true that in parts of the post-colonial Muslim world, there has emerged an increasingly puritanical interpretation of Islam, the most grotesque of which can found in Afghanistan where women are often forced to wear the face veil under the threat of state molestation. This, of course, represents an illicit form of religious coercion, one that has quite rightly elicited moral condemnation from all quarters of the world.

I do not see the pathetic attempt by the Author to connect the veil and the right of Sikhs to wear the turban.

These are distinct issues. There is no-one demanding that Sikhs lose their turbans !!!!

As the Author claims

However one does wonder if the Veil is so controversial, how long will it take for the media to pick up on the Kirpan? Now that it is open season on religious symbols, Sikhs in UK may well find themselves up against a populist stance by politicians against the Kirpan. Certainly we will find politicians and press far less sympathetic to the religious right to the Kirpan.

Absolute emotive speculation !!!! ....implying we should support the barbaric cultural tradition of women being "imprisioned" in a veil to that of our rights as Sikhs to carry the kirpan. It is a dishonest approach !!!! Sikhs have accepted that we should be allowed to carry "ceremonial" kirpans in western countries. We do not see/hear of Sikhs using their kirpans in crime nor violence in the press do we ? The vast majority of British people accept the right of Sikhs to carry the kirpan. They do not accept the subjegation of women by cultural veils.

The article is very very poor journalism ..if it can be called that. It is a pathetic attempt to cause undue panic/concern in that an attack on the veil is an attack on Sikhism !!! That is WRONG.

Bhikhu Parekh counters what he sees as the tendencies to equate multiculturalism with racial minorities "demanding special rights" and to see it as promoting a "thinly veiled racism". Instead, he argues that multiculturalism is in fact "not about minorities" but "is about the proper terms of relationship between different cultural communities", which means that the standards by which the communities resolve their differences, e.g., "the principles of justice" must not come from only one of the cultures but must come "through an open and equal dialogue between them."

The veil is an affront to man/womankind.



I 100% support the right of each to worship...but also the right of our society to protect the weak.

Lionsingh,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386
I think you are missing the point. We know the distinction between veil and turban but the avergae joe on the street does not. The media puts the 2 things in 1 category, law puts the 2 things in 1 category and most people think of the 2 things as alike. Therefore, laws affecting one, will affect the other by default. Whatever the background philosophy, that is the truth of the modern world and persuading people otherwise will take an eternity.

I suppose it is our job to make clear distinctions. We are tolerant but the two issues cannot be compared.

We cannot defend something and unnatural like the veil because we dont believe we can justify the turban or kirpan. That is being disingenuous.

I do believe in freedom...but also in a society we have certain values that are central. Equality is one such thing. This country is great in that we have many cultures who have successfully integrated here and many aspects of the home culture has been incorporated into the UK.

However I am against say child circumcition, forced marriages, polygamy ..... etc.

My basic point is that the article is wrong to connect the two issues and that it is cowardice not to stand up against something I am against..Veils.. and then to keep quite because I dont think I could persuade reasonable people the importance of the kirpan.

To re-iterate.. I am against the veil/burqa ..It is an insult to man/womankind. How many Kaurs would accept wearing such backward cultural attire in subjugation to insecure menfolk ????

My sister would be the first to veil my mouth for suggesting such an evil thing.

The kirpan has been accepted as an integral part of Sikhism and thus exceptions have been made in the common law to allow Sikhs to carry it. We have argued successfully for our rights to wear and carry our religious symbols.

WE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY ARGUED SUCH CASES AND WON !!!!! You state "law puts the 2 things in 1 category"....You are WRONG !!!!!!! .... as some recent cases in the UK,USA and Canada have shown...Happy to provide more legal rulings. You state "Therefore, laws affecting one, will affect the other by default"... which is complete nonsense !!! Look at legal case history !!!!!!!!!!!!

There are two main areas where the Sikhs come into potential conflict with the law of the land;in the UK

The first is the wearing of a turban, whilst riding a motor cycle. Under the Motor Cycles (Protective Helmets) Regulations 1980 there is a specific exemption for Sikhs wearing turbans,
Secondly, is the Kirpan (Dagger). Some police officers may believe Sikhs carry the dagger as an offensive weapon. Under the Criminal Justice Act 1988, which deals with carrying articles with points or blades, there is an exemption, if the person is carrying the item for religious reasons. There is however, no specific exemption under the Prevention of Crimes Act 1953. The person carrying the offensive weapon would have to show that they had a reasonable excuse. The inference being that the carrying of the Kirpan for religious reasons would fall into this category.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386
In practice, Sikhs who carry the Kirpan will often only carry a very small knife, which could be described as ornamental rather than the original version, which, therefore, complies with their religion.

Is It Legal To Carry A Kirpan In Britain?
Yes it is! Under the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (section 139) and Criminal Justice 1996 (section 3 and 4) allows anyone to carry a blade exceeding the length of 3 inches for religious, cultural or work related reasons. The Criminal Justice Act and the 2003 Religious Discrimination Act safeguards the Sikhs to carry the Kirpan.

www.publications.parliament.uk



In the 2006, the Supreme Court of Canada's decision in Multani v. Commission scolaire Marguerite‑Bourgeoys, the court held that the banning of the kirpan in a school environment is against Canada's Charter of Rights and Freedoms. The issue started when a 12 year old student dropped a 20 cm (8 inches) long kirpan in school. School staff and parents were very concerned, and the student was required to attend school under police supervision until the court decision was reached.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386

Kirpan Recognized In a landmark decision by a Ohio Court: "To be a Sikh is to wear a Kirpan - it is that simple." - Judge J. Painter of the Court of Appeals, Hamilton County, Ohio...

The Court allowed Dr. Harjinder Singh to wear a Kirpan in these words: "Here, it is beyond debate that Dr. Singh is a devout Sikh. A central tenet of his religion requires him to wear the Kirpan at all times. It is unrebutted that Dr. Singh wears the Kirpan out of a sincere religious belief." The Court further states, "The crucial issue then is whether the evidence was sufficient to establish beyond a reasonable doubt that the Kirpan was designed or specially adopted as a weapon. We conclude it was not."
Judge J. Painter, who "wholeheartedly" concurred with this decision, wrote thus: "I write separately to confess that I am amazed that a case like this would ever be prosecuted once, much less twice, at tremendous cost to the State, the Defendant, and the legal system." He continues, "The Sikh religion has been part of world history since the 1400s. An integral part of that religion is the 'five K's' worn by its members. To be a Sikh is to wear a Kirpan - it is that simple. It is a religious symbol, and in no way a weapon. As long as the Kirpan remains a symbol and is neither designed or adopted for use as a weapon, laws such as R.C.2923.12 are wholly inapplicable."
Judge Painter concludes in this way, "I cannot understand the purpose for this prosecution which, if successful, would have had the effect of banishing the members of one religious sect from the State of Ohio for its mandatory wear."

The legal cases speak for themself !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The KIRPAN has been accepted in our democracies...to suggest that it will be banned is SCARE-MONGERING at its worst, especially trying to connect it to the veil !!!!

It is not scare mongering as can be seen in countries such as France. In order to ban the veil, turbans have also been caught in the crossfire. What is to stop this happening in other countries? This is where we are headed. You think the veil is about suppression and many of us agree but that is our opinion. There are women out there that want to wear it, like to wear it, wear it from choice.

It is about defending the right to choose and not imposing our views on others. To most people both the veil and turban are symbolism. There are different philosophies behind the symbolism but that doesn't matter to people who don't believe in either.

Schools are banning crosses, head scarves, karas etc as they don't want to be discriminating against one group only. It's already happening, where's the scare mongering in that?

Articles of faith are important to all of us. I accept that.

But this panic mongering is clearly wrong. In some cultures like in France where religion is separated from the state ... then it is an issue of secularism v faith.

As Sikhs we have stood up against tyranny. We have always stood up for womens rights. We have protected weaker groups..when we were weak.

As you say "It is about defending the right to choose and not imposing our views on others"


Isnt that what the Gurus did...demand equality and freedom for women !!!! ?

Guru Amar Das Ji... and gave them equality with men. He strictly prohibited the practice of Sati (the dying of the wife on her husband's funeral pyre), "Parrda" (veil to He preached against Sati and advocated the re-marrying of widows. He asked the women to discard 'Purrda' (veil to cover the face)

Thus he raised the status of women and protected the rights of female infant who were killed without question as they were deemed to have no status. These teachings met stiff resistance from the Orthodox Hindus and Muslim fundamentalists. He fixed three Gurpurbs for Sikh celebrations: Dewali, Vaisakhi and Maghi. Visiting of Hindu pilgrimage centres and paying tributes to the Muslim places were prohibited.

You cannot in a clear conscience support the veil/burqa !!!!


ਰਹੁ ਰਹੁ ਰੀ ਬਹੁਰੀਆ ਘੂੰਘਟੁ ਜਿਨਿ ਕਾਢੈ ॥ ਅੰਤ ਕੀ ਬਾਰ ਲਹੈਗੀ ਨ ਆਢੈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
Rahu rahu rī bahurī*ā gẖūngẖat jin kādẖai. Anṯ kī bār lahaigī na ādẖai. ॥1॥ rahā*o

.Stay, stay, O daughter-in-law - do not cover your face with a veil. In the end, this shall not bring you even half a shell.
(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p484)

ਲਾਜ ਮਰੰਤੀ ਮਰਿ ਗਈ ਘੂਘਟੁ ਖੋਲਿ ਚਲੀ ॥ ਸਾਸੁ ਦਿਵਾਨੀ ਬਾਵਰੀ ਸਿਰ ਤੇ ਸੰਕ ਟਲੀ ॥
ਪ੍ਰੇਮਿ ਬੁਲਾਈ ਰਲੀ ਸਿਉ ਮਨ ਮਹਿ ਸਬਦੁ ਅਨੰਦੁ ॥ ਲਾਲਿ ਰਤੀ ਲਾਲੀ ਭਈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਭਈ ਨਿਚਿੰਦੁ ॥੧੨॥

Lāj maranṯī mar ga*ī gẖūgẖat kẖol cẖalī. Sās ḏivānī bāvrī sir ṯė sank talī.
Parėm bulā*ī ralī si*o man meh sabaḏ anand. Lāl raṯī lālī bẖa*ī gurmukẖ bẖa*ī nicẖinḏ. ॥12॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=14386

My shyness and hesitation have died and gone, and I walk with my face unveiled.
The confusion and doubt from my crazy, insane mother-in-law has been removed from over my head.
My Beloved has summoned me with joyful caresses; my mind is filled with the bliss of the Shabad.
Imbued with the Love of my Beloved, I have become Gurmukh, and carefree...(Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p931)