Why do I believe in Jesus? An ex-sikhs journey in faith

Neutral Singh · #19 (**permalink**) 03-Sep-2004, 15:41 PM

Quote:

Few of you have zeroed-in on Jesus’ statement “My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?" with a view to make light of Jesus’ suffering and death on the cross. Simply put, if Jesus was dying on the cross willingly, then why cry out to God? In fact, Singh99 even alluded to the “bravery/humility” of Sikh Gurus’, who in comparison, had accepted their martyrdom without any complains. (Mind you, they might have died for the freedom of Hinduism, BUT “not” for the sins of the world. It is also possible that they died for Hinduism because, in a way, they regarded themselves as “former”, AHEM… Hindus???)

Dear Rajs
A sacrifice is a sacrifice and who gave you the authority to belittle anybody's sacrifice ? What Jesus did for humanity is commendable and What Sikh Gurus did for humanity is also indisputable... Can you get this across your bigoted mind set or what? If you think you are a follower of Jesus then He must be disgusted to have a religious basher like you as one of His followers. Do you think that by establishing the superiority of sacrifice of Jesus, Jesus would be very happy with you. I never thought that a Christian could so narrow minded but now that you have come as a representative of Jesus, I am pained to change my opinions. Do you think that a sin, a person commits can be redeemed by sacrifice of others ? Thats indigestable for me no matter what? Can you make a rational correlation ? and what about people, who even today commit sin ? Who would redeem them ? or you mean to say that His sacrifice redeemed all the sins ever committed by mankind or ever to be committed?

Christians and Jews were involved in two world wars and that resulted in heinous crimes against humanity committed by so called Christians... 100 million people died... Are those crimes already pardoned with the sacrifice of Jesus ? I can not get it in my head... Please let me know how ? And what is this AHEM ? Do you think you are making a point ? Noone is a Hindu or Muslim or Christian just because he is born to that family. Anyways, how does that make the supreme sacrifice of Sikh Guru be demeaned or belittled ? You cannot be such a thankless person... Are you ? Mind it I am not asking for 'Sympathy' from your side...

Sikhs admire the sacrifice of Jesus and respect Him for what He did for humanity and so they do admire the sacrifice of Sikh Gurus... They all sacrificed for the sake of humanity and there is nothing ambigious in Guru Nanak saying "There is no Hindu, or Muslim"... means when everything is born from the same creative energy i.e. Almighty then who are you or me to decide upon the superiority of any anyone ? Only narrow minded people can think that way or people whose mind is filled with extreme prejudice... you certainly represent the second category. Please cleanse you mind of hatred. And fill it with love for humanity. Jesus would be really happy...

If you think you are here to convince everybody here to converty to Christinity then you are out of your mind. It is very easy to make a judgement. A man is known for what he does at the time of recokning. By mere saying some boostful words, God is not achieved...

And if, in this forum, we start finding absurdities in Bible and Jesus, then you would conveinantly lement on us that this forum is filled with hatred and prejudice. Won't you, Mr. Rajs ?

Quote:

Some of the questions raised are:

1. Why would God cry out to God and ask why God has forsaken God? (Singh99)
2. If Jesus was fulfilling a prophecy, which you claim he was, then why does he doubt God at the last moment? (Singh99)
3. Jesus was sentenced to death, he did not choose to die. Is that correct? (Sevadaar Singh)

Before I undertake the task of providing some answers to the above questions, I would like to provide you with a word, which will help you in understanding my explanation. The word is “context”, which is defined in the Oxford dictionary as:

a) The circumstances that form the setting for an event, statement, or idea.
b) The parts that immediately precede and follow a word or passage and clarify its meaning.

Now, let’s clarify your erroneous understanding about Jesus’ words uttered on the Cross.

To begin with, Jesus death was not an accident, not bad luck, not a sentence, but rather, a sacrifice, willingly fulfilled by Jesus with a predefined purpose. Before the crucifixion, the scriptures and Jesus himself confirmed this fact, that, he will die on the Cross for the sins of many. Please follow along,

1. Isaiah 53
“He was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities;” (v5)
“… The Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” (v6)
“… For he bore the sin of many…” (v12)

2. Matthew 16:21 (see also; Mark 10:33, Luke 18:31)
“From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hand of the elders, chief priests and teachers of the law, and he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.”

3. Matthew 21:33-46 (The Parable of the Tenants.)

4. The “Last Supper” before crucifixion. (Matthew 26:27)
”This is the blood of my covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.”

5. John 6:51
I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the word.”

6. John 10
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep” (v11)
“… I lay down my life- only to take it up again. No one takes it away from me, but I lay it down of my accord.” (v17)

7. At Jesus’ arrest, he identified himself and allowed himself to be taken in willingly. (John 18)

8. Jesus never even asked as to what were the charges laid against him when questioned by Pilate and accepted his verdict without making a single statement in his defence.

Thats totally fine, dear Rajs. Although, rationally speaking, we have no reason to believe, whatever is written above simply because its not authentic. Is there any reason we should believe it ?

Quote:

What about Jesus’ cry:

Whilst on the Cross Jesus cried out, in Aramaic, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani" – translated in plain English – “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)

This cry of Jesus was not a statement implying that God had forsaken him. (By the way, now is probably the good time to once again look at the definition of “context” given above?)

In what context did Jesus cry out? Jesus was, in fact, quoting scriptures. Jesus quoted Psalm 22:1 in order to draw attention to it and the fact that He was there on the cross fulfilling what was written in the scriptures.

If you take the time to read the entire Psalm 22, you will see that Jesus’ utterance was not of abandonment but of hope in God who always keeps his promise regardless of the situation and circumstances. Consider verse 27 - “All the ends of the earth will remember and turn to the Lord, and all the family of the nations will bow down before him.”

Also, in order to put Jesus’ cry into perspective, and for a proper understanding, one has to look at Jesus’ other words uttered on the Cross. He said,

“Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." (Luke 23:34)
"Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit." (Luke 23:46)

Sikhs do appreciate the extreme sacrifice He make for humanity.

But, His sacrifice could have been presented to the world without all these ludicrous stupidities written by His emotional followers... they glorified His sacrifice only to make Him look like a God in flesh. In a survey conducted recently only 55% of Christians do believe in Bible and its happenings. Why 45% have started suspecting authenticity of bible in this moderan age ?
You were claiming somewhere that a prediction about coming of Jeus was made thousands of years in advance. Can you point me towards source of those predictions ? What scripture ? Who authored it ? What was year it was authored ? Who was ruler when that prediction was made ?

Quote:

These words are not of someone who had been abandoned or forsaken but of the Savior, who died willingly with a predefined purpose.

Please prove that these words were said by Jesus. Such stupities have belittled the sacrifice of Jesus, I am afraid.

Quote:

Lastly, Jesus did not die on the cross as God, but as a “Son of man” – representing the fallen/sinful mankind. God is Spirit, Holy, and Eternal. God cannot die; that’s why God embodied Jesus in human body. “God made him who had no sin to be a sin offering for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” (2 Corinthians 5:21)

All you have 'pasted' above is emotional exaggerations having no evidence to stand upon.

What you have been pasting above is just a trivial records of history. I see no philosophy or spirituality in these writings... I am shocked to read such booastful statements made by Jesus. I would rather suspect the source who wrote these writings. You are also booasting that Jesus provides remedy for sins... how come... I do not get you... we are responsibles for our sins and nobody can just come and redeem our sins... thats a lame excuse for our limitations.

Can you predict the coming next Christ ? Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) was the next Christ ? Why yes & why not ?

Quote:

Dear Tejwant,

“More Rape and Baby Killing: Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT) “
Need we say anything more????

Well, I hope you have read the definition of “context” above. The verses you are quoting refer to the destruction of Babylon, which prophet Isaiah prophesised. He is describing a war situation, in advance, where the destruction of Babylon will take place and the ensuing violence. If you take time out to read Sikh history, you will see many mentions of rapes, baby killings, etc., etc., by the Moghuls which occurred during fights between Sikhs and Islamic power of its time. Need I say anything more????

Does this "context" not apply to Sikhism or that is a property of Yours ?

Quote:

Finally, Singh99 you say, “As for your claim that the Bible is the most accurate book ever written. You need to read some works by scholars and not just christian polemics. I am a bit busy now but if you are interested I can give you links later”

Tell you what, I am more than happy to look at the work of these “scholars” you speak of. However, provided that these very same “scholars” of the Bible have also looked at Guru Granth Sahib in the same context and declared it to be a Guru as you claim it to be. If you are willing to take up this challenge, sure, point out these “scholars” of yours to me.

Challenge ??? None of my busines, i am afraid.

Rajs (Not a missionary … but a sinner … saved by Jesus)

I am not Christian and most likely never be, will i be not saved by Jesus ?

Please do not belittle the contribution of Jesus...

Best Regards

Tejwant Singh · #20 (**permalink**) 03-Sep-2004, 19:57 PM

Rajs,

I am so glad that you are here in this interfaith forum. We surely can learn from each other specially myself who has very little knowledge about Christanity. We all have questions about our faiths and others' so that we can map out the most suitable spiritual path.

From your posts it seems that you are bitter with Sikhism more than you are in love with Christanity. If your measuring stick is the disdainfulness towards Sikhism, in which you were blessed to be born in, then I have no idea what path you are seeking. If Christanity had sprouted love in you then you would not be talking ill about Sikhism but more about your love towards mankind which dwells on this speck of land called the Earth.

As you may very well know being an EX SIKH that Nirankaris, Radasoamis and others who believe in SantMat rather than GurMat are not considered Sikhs according to the Sikh religion as Sikhi believe only in GurMat.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christianity/470-why-do-i-believe-jesus-ex.html

Christanity has 1000's of denominations ( Can you pls give us the right number?). All of them call themselves Christians. However they accuse each other of not loving Jesus. Hence not christians.

My question to you is that which denominations are real Christians and why? and which are not and why not?

You may consult your converters for the detailed response if you like.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Lets try to learn from each other as we choose different paths to seek ONE GOD and interact so that we can become better than what we were.

Peace & Love

Tejwant

Ps: I do have a lot more questions for you which we will come to when I learn from your wisdom about who the real christian is amongst sea of denominations.

Arvind · #21 (**permalink**) 03-Sep-2004, 20:26 PM

Before reading these posts, I used to have good perception about christians and christianity, and loved to find faults in my own surroundings. However, Rajs, your posts and views have made me re-think and study a few more christians' views. This study wont stop, but certainly, majority of views will be known.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Good luck for your journey, friend.

Tejwant Singh · #22 (**permalink**) 04-Sep-2004, 01:34 AM

God said to the others, Follow him through the city and kill, without showing pity or compassion. Slaughter old men, young men and maidens, women and children." (Ezekiel 9:5-6)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Rajs,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Can you please tell me the meaning of the above and how it relates to Jesus' message of "turn the other cheek"?

Thanx

Tejwant

vijaydeep Singh · #23 (**permalink**) 04-Sep-2004, 20:02 PM

Ek Oankar Wahiguru Ji Ki Fateh
Brother Rajs Hallelujah,
A person can not speak truth till he is not in holy Ghost. Jesus Said to his father that only those people who he served were those who God gave to him. If he wants us to be chrestians like he made saul the poul he could make us the same.

But have gained the state of holy ghost. God is one whose throne is Heavan and footstool is earth. For Denial Gods presence was in all places,be in Heavon or earth or in pit(this pit cold be dug till hell as hell in underground). Deutrinomy says all things are of God. Whole bible say everything is created by Yehova or illohi. Who is omni potent capable to do anything. Book of Issiah states,since start what has has man sen or heard beside you oh lord.what is waitung of him(Man). This means God is in all matter.

so your Soul,Hell ,Heavon ,Earth all are made by God.God says that God bring piece and bring evil , Likewise lucipher is Gods creation too.

So in jerusalm the people who get place or the one who get place in lake of fire ie hell.they all are creations like our Souls.All thing Created by lord God can be destroyed by God. So For a Sikh(like you das also had an option to be Chrsttian instead of becoming Sikh from partental Faith of Hinduism) Hell or hevaons which themselves are decayble do no count equal to a pinch of Sand. For us counts the Faith in God.

Our Salvation is getting our mind eliminated and Mind of God taking controlof our bodies. To let you understand in your language Salvation for Sikhs is obtained while they are alive.Salvation has no greed to heavon or fear of Hell but Salvation is to be in holy Ghost.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Even with a full faith for a second with your full concentration of mind if you rember God,Who is in all and occupiies whole of the space. You will be salvaged. Just try and if our God wants it you will get that state.thier You could communicate with many a Sikhs without meeting them in ever in life physically or by anyother wordly communication media. It is not as difficult either but only mercy of one who is,who was,who is to come,The Omega and the Alpha,The begning(at intial state nothing but God was there) and the End(nothing else but God will remain niether your or our souls).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

We can make you son of God like Jesus. Have faith in word and you will be light and the manifestation of word. Yuo are but you do no know as Satan is blocking your way.But rember as in book of Job. Satan cannot do any thing which our Fathewr lord God does not Want.

Glory be to lord God who is eternal(Akal)
amen

Rajs · #24 (**permalink**) 06-Sep-2004, 07:08 AM

To Neutral Singh and others, posted here are my answers for the various questions raised in your respective posts. I hope I have covered most, if not all.

Jesus’ Eternal existence:

Jesus was not created from dust like Adam (& Eve) through whom human lineage has its origin and hence, the sinful nature. “Sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all men, because all sinned. (Romans 5:12) However, about Jesus, the Bible says;

“… Is the image of the invisible God... He is before all things and in him all things hold together. (Colossians 1:15)

“… Through whom all things came…” (1 Corianthians 8:6)

“Who, being in very nature God” (Philippians 2:6)

“The radiance of God’s glory and exact representation of his being…” (Hebrews 1:3)

“Do you think that a sin, a person commits can be redeemed by sacrifice of others?”

Only Jesus’ sacrifice made on the Cross can redeem a person from his sins; no one else’s sacrifice is acceptable to God because Jesus is the only person to ever be born on this earth who had never sinned. “Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.” (Acts 4:12) Sin can only be forgiven by God. However, God is also holy and his holy justice requires that sin must be punished. Since all humans are guilty of sin (Romans 5:12), therefore, Jesus took the punishment upon himself to pay the price for the sins of the mankind. I am going to give you an example to clarify my point.

Let’s say person “A” went bankrupt because of his shoddy business deals. “A” owed money to a creditor named, “B”. “A” couldn’t pay his debts and was facing a jail-term. But out of compassion, person “B” disguised as person “C” paid “A’s” all debts, thus saving “A” from going to prison.

Now let’s identify the people in the above story to clarify the message.

Person “A” = Man; Creditor “B” = God; Person “C” = Jesus

Man is a sinner, who is indebted to God for his sins, and God’s holy justice (sin=punishment) awaited him. But, because of His compassion and love for Man, God had set in motion a plan where Jesus would come to earth and take the punishment on Man’s behalf. With this plan, God’s holiness would not be compromised and Man would be spared of punishment that he deserved for his sins. All Man has to do is to confess his own sinfulness, accept God’s forgiveness because of Jesus’ sacrifice and allow God’s Holy Spirit to mould him for the coming Kingdom of God. However, Man must realize that God’s grace is not a license for immorality. Man’s life in not his own but belongs to God, and now rest of his life is governed according to God’s word as established in the Bible.

“what about people, who even today commit sin ? Who would redeem them ? or you mean to say that His sacrifice redeemed all the sins ever committed by mankind or ever to be committed?”

Jesus’ sacrifice two thousand years, entitles every human, even today to receive forgiveness, if he or she accepts him as Savior. Now this generates a thorny question; what about the people who existed before Jesus’ birth? Very good question! The answer is that it’s not our problem but God’s. How God will judge people who existed prior to Jesus’ time can be left in God’s capable hands because he is fair and can be trusted to do justice. However, the Bible does provide some hints, which can give us an ironclad assurance as to the fairness of God’s judgment (pre/post Jesus).

“… For the Lord is a God of judgment” (Isaiah 30:18)

“And He shall judge the world in righteousness, he shall minister judgment to the people in uprightness.” (Psalm 9

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

“… He shall judge the world with righteousness, and the people with his truth.” (Psalm 96:13)

So, the question is, “How shall we escape (God’s judgment) if we neglect so great a salvation (Jesus).” (Hebrews 2:3)

Can you predict the coming next Christ ? Do you think Muhammad (pbuh) was the next Christ ? Why yes & why not ?

No human can predict the time of Jesus’ second coming. The Bible says it will happen at an appointed time as set by God. It can happen today, or it can happen tomorrow, or it can happen the day after tomorrow- we are not asked to predict but expect the second coming of Jesus. (Matthew 24) The Bible only speaks of “signs” that will take place before the second coming of Christ. If you wish to know, for more descriptive analysis, there are numerous Christian websites on the Internet that you can visit and read about it. The Bible does provide us with lot of clear-cut hints and one of them being foretold to his disciples at Jesus’ ascension:
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven. (Acts 1:11)

Muhammad was NOT Christ in any shape and form, let alone “next Christ.” It is evidently crystal clear from the above verse that Jesus’ second coming will not be an obscure event, relegated to a certain part of the world, but an occurrence that every eye will behold, vindicating those who have put their faith in Him.

I am not Christian and most likely never be, will i be not saved by Jesus?

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stand condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God’s only begotten Son.” (John 3:18) As you can see, to be saved by Jesus does not depend on a person, being a Christian (any denomination) or not. Salvation is in the person of Jesus Christ, not in the religion, Christianity, or for that matter, any other! The three steps guide to receive salvation and to inherit the Kingdom of God is presented in (Acts 2:38 – “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.)

In other words,

Repent and confess your sins, and accept Jesus as Savior, i.e., your commitment.
Receive His forgiveness and righteousness, i.e., Jesus’ commitment for you.
Be “Born Again” (spiritual re-birth) to enter the Kingdom of God, i.e., God’s commitment to you.

Remember, only step # 1 is needed because the “good news” is that the other two steps have already been completed!

Rajs

Rajs · #25 (**permalink**) 06-Sep-2004, 07:28 AM

Dear Tejwant,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Once again, please, may I ask you to check the context of the verse! Read the chapter before it and the whole chapter from which you have taken the verse. (Ezekiel 8 and 9)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Refrain from idoltary, is one the 10 commandments given to the Israelites and the punishment with death was assigned to those who worshipped idols. Why? Because the Israelites were specially chosen to witness God's power and hold a speacial relationship with God for that very fact. The verse you are referring to is the punishment for those idolaters. Besides, it's a prophetic word, a vision, given to Ezekiel, not an actual occurence.

I hope it helps to clarify your misconception.

Rajs

Rajs · #26 (**permalink**) 06-Sep-2004, 07:37 AM

Dear Sevadaar,
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470

Your "good" perception about Christians and Christianity is of no consequence to God. However, your response to Jesus Christ is of great importance because He is the one who holds the key to your ultimate destiny in eternity.

All the best in your study.

Rajs

Tejwant Singh · #27 (**permalink**) 06-Sep-2004, 08:33 AM

Rajs,

According to Christanity, does Christian God create evil and darkness?

Please respond with the verses that compliment the above or contradict it?

Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=470
Thanx to you I am begining to learn a bitmore about your faith.

Tejwant