Footprints of Faith: Reverence or Fear?

Narayanjot Kaur · #1 (**permalink**) 09-Mar-2009, 16:29 PM

Vatican defends Brazil excommunication

Source Vatican defends Brazil excommunication - Yahoo!7 News

March 8, 2009, 6:40 am

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion in Brazil after being raped.

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Catholic church's Congregation for Bishops, told the daily La Stampa on Saturday that the twins the girl had been carrying had a right to live.

"It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated," he said.

Re, who also heads the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, added: "Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian church is unjustified."

The row was triggered by the termination on Wednesday of twin foetuses carried by a nine-year-old allegedly raped by her stepfather in the Brazilian state of Pernambuco.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christianity/24181-footprints-of-faith-reverence-or-fear.html

The regional archbishop, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, pronounced excommunication for the mother for authorising the operation and doctors who carried it out for fear that the slim girl would not survive carrying the foetuses to term.

"God's law is above any human law. So when a human law ... is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value," Cardoso had said.

He also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion - the elimination of an innocent life - was more serious".

Battista Re agreed, saying: "Excommunication for those who carried out the abortion is just" as a pregnancy termination always meant ending an innocent life.

The case has sparked fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or if the woman's health is in danger.

On Friday, President Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva hit out at Sobrinho's decision, saying: "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic church has such a conservative attitude."

"The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old," he said, adding that "in this case, the medical profession was more right than the church."
One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, told Globo television that he would keep going to mass, regardless of the archbishop's order.

"The people want a church full of forgiveness, love and mercy," he said.

Health Minister Jose Gomes Temporao also slammed the archbishop.
"Two things strike me: the assault on the girl and the position of this bishop, which is truly lamentable," he said.

The girl, who was not identified because she is a minor, was last week found to be four months' pregnant after being taken to hospital suffering stomach pains.
Officials said she told them she had suffered sexual abuse by her stepfather since the age of six.

Police said the 23-year-old stepfather also allegedly sexually abused the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181

He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.

The website of the news group Globo reported that another girl, aged 11, had been found to be seven months pregnant following alleged sexual abuse at the hands of her adoptive father.

The girl has said she does not intend to seek an abortion, according to reports.

Reading suggested by forum member Tejwant Malik Singh ji

Tejwant Singh · #2 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2009, 00:08 AM

Quote:

Vatican defends Brazil excommunication

Source Vatican defends Brazil excommunication - Yahoo!7 News

March 8, 2009, 6:40 am

A senior Vatican cleric has defended the excommunication of the mother and doctors of a nine-year-old girl who had an abortion in Brazil after being raped.

Cardinal Giovanni Battista Re, head of the Catholic church's Congregation for Bishops, told the daily La Stampa on Saturday that the twins the girl had been carrying had a right to live.

"It is a sad case but the real problem is that the twins conceived were two innocent persons, who had the right to live and could not be eliminated," he said.

Re, who also heads the Pontifical Commission for Latin America, added: "Life must always be protected, the attack on the Brazilian church is unjustified."

The row was triggered by the termination on Wednesday of twin foetuses carried by a nine-year-old allegedly raped by her stepfather in the Brazilian state of Pernambuco.

The regional archbishop, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, pronounced excommunication for the mother for authorising the operation and doctors who carried it out for fear that the slim girl would not survive carrying the foetuses to term.

"God's law is above any human law. So when a human law ... is contrary to God's law, this human law has no value," Cardoso had said.

He also said the accused stepfather would not be expelled from the church. Although the man allegedly committed "a heinous crime ... the abortion - the elimination of an innocent life - was more serious".

Battista Re agreed, saying: "Excommunication for those who carried out the abortion is just" as a pregnancy termination always meant ending an innocent life.

The case has sparked fierce debate in Brazil, where abortion is illegal except in cases of rape or if the woman's health is in danger.

On Friday, President Luiz Ignacio Lula da Silva hit out at Sobrinho's decision, saying: "As a Christian and a Catholic, I deeply regret that a bishop of the Catholic church has such a conservative attitude."

"The doctors did what had to be done: save the life of a girl of nine years old," he said, adding that "in this case, the medical profession was more right than the church."
One of the doctors involved in the abortion, Rivaldo Albuquerque, told Globo television that he would keep going to mass, regardless of the archbishop's order.

"The people want a church full of forgiveness, love and mercy," he said.

Health Minister Jose Gomes Temporao also slammed the archbishop.
"Two things strike me: the assault on the girl and the position of this bishop, which is truly lamentable," he said.

The girl, who was not identified because she is a minor, was last week found to be four months' pregnant after being taken to hospital suffering stomach pains.
Officials said she told them she had suffered sexual abuse by her stepfather since the age of six.

Police said the 23-year-old stepfather also allegedly sexually abused the girl's physically handicapped 14-year-old sister.

He was arrested a week ago and is being kept in protective custody. If convicted, he faces up to 15 years in prison.

The website of the news group Globo reported that another girl, aged 11, had been found to be seven months pregnant following alleged sexual abuse at the hands of her adoptive father.

The girl has said she does not intend to seek an abortion, according to reports.

Reading suggested by forum member Tejwant Malik Singh ji

Dear Antonia ji,

Guru Fateh.

Jaskeerat, my 18 year old daughter brought this to my attention last nite. I have asked her to share her viewpoint here as she is also the member of SPN and she has agreed to do so. After reading what she and others have to say, I will pitch in with mine.

Love & regards

Tejwant Singh

paz.y.amor · #3 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2009, 01:29 AM

Abortion is quite a sticky topic. I myself have immense difficulty stating a solid position on the issue. However, in the case of this girl, my viewpoint does not waver. The Church had no right to excommunicate her mother and her doctors for this abortion. She was a nine year old pregnant with twins, a nine year old pregnant with twins. Had she carried out the pregnancy, she could have affected her physical health. Additionally, the pregnancy and alleged abuse had already taken a blow to her mental health. Moreover, how would the lives be of those twins and that little girl? How would life be for the little girl’s mother?
The Church is worried about the termination of innocent lives, well, what about the innocent life of that nine year old girl? Doesn’t she have the right to live a healthy, long life? Doesn’t she deserve to make her life as positive as it can possibly be after what she’s been through? Doesn’t her life matter, at all? How is it fair that her mother and the doctors get excommunicated for trying to save this girl’s life? The mother was doing whatever she could to protect her daughter and the doctors were doing whatever they could to save a life, this little girl’s life, a life that has already spanned nine years.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181
I’ve heard quite a bit over the years, the common question, “What would Jesus do?” Well, in this situation, honestly, “What would Jesus do?” Do you honestly think Jesus would force this child to become a mother at nine years old? Do you honestly think Jesus would condone this child to give birth to those twins if it meant seriously affecting her physical health? Do you really think that Jesus would disown either her, her mother, or her doctors for trying to save her life? I don’t think he would.
It is situations like this, which truly dishearten me, sadden me, and outrage me. Religion in my opinion is supposed to be a medium of guidance and positivity. Religion is what people turn to for strength and happiness. However, this decision by the Church is not any form of strength or happiness, it’s not positive at all. Actually, there is no one term to sum it up, to call it parochial would be to undermine its negative and close-minded force.
The Church feels a need to protect innocent lives; however, apparently the nine year old child’s life did not matter to them. According to the Church, this child should have attempted to carry out her pregnancy, and either face serious medical complications that could endanger her and her children or become a mother at nine years old and face psychological turmoil everyday of her life.

-Jaskeerat Kaur

pk70 · #4 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2009, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paz.y.amor

Abortion is quite a sticky topic. I myself have immense difficulty stating a solid position on the issue. However, in the case of this girl, my viewpoint does not waver. The Church had no right to excommunicate her mother and her doctors for this abortion. She was a nine year old pregnant with twins, a nine year old pregnant with twins. Had she carried out the pregnancy, she could have affected her physical health. Additionally, the pregnancy and alleged abuse had already taken a blow to her mental health. Moreover, how would the lives be of those twins and that little girl? How would life be for the little girl’s mother?
The Church is worried about the termination of innocent lives, well, what about the innocent life of that nine year old girl? Doesn’t she have the right to live a healthy, long life? Doesn’t she deserve to make her life as positive as it can possibly be after what she’s been through? Doesn’t her life matter, at all? How is it fair that her mother and the doctors get excommunicated for trying to save this girl’s life? The mother was doing whatever she could to protect her daughter and the doctors were doing whatever they could to save a life, this little girl’s life, a life that has already spanned nine years.
I’ve heard quite a bit over the years, the common question, “What would Jesus do?” Well, in this situation, honestly, “What would Jesus do?” Do you honestly think Jesus would force this child to become a mother at nine years old? Do you honestly think Jesus would condone this child to give birth to those twins if it meant seriously affecting her physical health? Do you really think that Jesus would disown either her, her mother, or her doctors for trying to save her life? I don’t think he would.
It is situations like this, which truly dishearten me, sadden me, and outrage me. Religion in my opinion is supposed to be a medium of guidance and positivity. Religion is what people turn to for strength and happiness. However, this decision by the Church is not any form of strength or happiness, it’s not positive at all. Actually, there is no one term to sum it up, to call it parochial would be to undermine its negative and close-minded force.
The Church feels a need to protect innocent lives; however, apparently the nine year old child’s life did not matter to them. According to the Church, this child should have attempted to carry out her pregnancy, and either face serious medical complications that could endanger her and her children or become a mother at nine years old and face psychological turmoil everyday of her life.

-Jaskeerat Kaur

Well said Jaskeerat kaur ji !
It is an example of blind ideology being forced on an innocent child in the name of religion.

Narayanjot Kaur · #5 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2009, 02:50 AM

Jaskeerat Kaur ji

All of your thoughts and questions were my thoughts and questions too. Let me add one more thing to paint in the shadows of hypocrisy in this picture.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181

The official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church for many years was that a fetus could not be termed a "human being" until the second trimester or about 90 to 120 days. At that point it would be considered distinctly an individual human with a soul. Before the first trimester, according to that doctrine, the Church was unsure about the human identity and the soul.

So -- because the Church was uncertain, the Church decided to include the first 90 days in the ban on abortion "just in case their reckoning was wrong." I myself do not know what to make of that.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181

Another interesting bit of history. Abortion was unacceptable in the Catholic Church back in the 19th Century. Then the reason was to save the life of the mother because abortion was so dangerous. Only later did the life of the mother become secondary to that of the fetus.

Tejwant Singh · #6 (**permalink**) 10-Mar-2009, 10:13 AM

First things first. If there were no Catholic Church, there would be no Christianity. This is the same Church that created wonderful charities to help the needy, great schools and colleges and hospitals.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24181

The same Church punished Galileo for challenging their " factual belief" that the Sun revolves around the Earth. The Church changed its mind in 1992 about that, about 500 years later.

The same Church turned the other cheek- pun intended- for thousands of years when young boys were being sexually molested by the men of God. They even silently condoned the practice by not doing anything about it. The harshest punishment when the Priest was found to have involved in the molestation was to transfer him to another perish.

We all know the rest of the story.

Some of us must have read the"The Magdalene Sisters". It is a fact-based account of three young Irish women who .... aided and abetted such cruel treatment of their own flesh and blood. ... For their "crimes," all three girls are spirited away and deposited in this .... to the Magdalene Laundry Asylum where they are under the thumb of cruel nuns. ...Amazon.ca: Customer Reviews: The Magdalene Sister www.amazon.ca/product-reviews/B00018D3L4

Child molestation is still prevalent in Africa and South America where the Catholic Church has a strong hold. In fact Rede Globo- A Brazilian TV channel last month said that a priest was caught molesting a boy in the Church's parking lot in a town in the state of Sao Paulo. The change is slow or ignored. Only Ik Ong Kaar knows that.

The other puzzling thing is what does ex-communication accomplish except shows the muscle and power of Me-ism of the Church?

Isn't Ik Ong Kaar omnipresent?

This is pathetically deplorable to say the least.

Tejwant Singh