Many Christians Believe That Jesus Is God. What Does Sikhism Say About It?

Inderjitji

Forgive me if my objectivity hurt your feelings for you seem to interpret it as “rude.” But there again since in your worldview there are no laws of logic it also correct that I am “not rude.” Your so called Sikh doctrine is not touted by anybody except you. The Sikh authorities do not promote it and for a very good reason it is not found in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji, which is the final arbiter of Sikh doctrine not you or Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia.

And my dear friend much more highly esteemed scholars than Ahluwalia have been proved to be wrong. Even Alfred North Whitehead the hardest to understand philosopher said that his philosophy was not the final word, only the best so far. And Ludwig Wittgenstein thought he had written the final all encompassing treatise on philosophy. Prior to that there was Kant. The history of philosophy is littered with outdated philosophies. Postmodernism was the buzz word about a decade back & espoused by Jasbir Ahluwalia in writing his books. Unfortunately it too is now outdated and shown to be flawed.

You write:

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I never had to do a course in critical thinking

It is high time you did for you do not know what you are talking about. You need to get a college level education in philosophy to understand your utter inadequacy. It is apparent that you have not studied Hegel or postmodernism in detail. If you had, you would know that your worldview is a distortion and an aberration of Sikhism as taught by the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji whose locus of thought & paradigm is Eastern philosophical thought not western Hegelian reconstruction & postmodernism.

As far as logic goes, you are in denial & guilty of intellectual dishonesty. You write:

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when I communicate I am not using logic I am using grammatical construction but only to convey that logic is incorrect.

Now what on earth is this supposed to mean? Last time you said that:

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logic and reason are annihilated.

If they are annihilated do they resurrect just for you to use & then slip into non existence?

You write:

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you have been unable to show how the sikh doctrine does breakdown

Simple - it breaks down because it is a RECONSTRUCTION of Sikhism through Hegelianism. If anything is sovereign according to your worldview it is NOT SIKHISM but Hegelianism! Your so called paradigm shift is nothing more & nothing less than a paradigm shift to Hegelianism - an alien philosophy as far as Sikhism is concerned.

You write:

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say what you may but this doctrine is irrefutable and therefore the only true religious doctrine

Once again you do not want to be confused with the facts. You don’t even remember what you write for you contradicted this when you wrote:

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no one is interested in Sikhism to find objective truth

What do you think you are saying when you say this

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doctrine is irrefutable and therefore the only true religious doctrine.

Furthermore you contradict your worldview by talking about a “TRUE” religious doctrine. If

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logic and reason are annihilated

you cannot talk about something being true for it entails its contrary being false, which is logic. Furthermore, why do you keep gravitating to Christianity and trying to prove it false? You do not have that right for there is no true or false in your worldview because

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logic and reason are annihilated.

In your worldview it is quite OK to simultaneously believe that Christianity is true and you are wasting your time. It is obvious you did not understand my last post about the two Hegelians.

You write:

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I have tried my best to help you by showing you the true sikh path

My dear friend you contradict yourself time after time. How can you talk about

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the true sikh path

whentrue is compatible with false because

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logic and reason are annihilated.

You write:

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You then go on to twist the highly esteemed scholar and most authoritative on Sikhism by saying that sikhsim does not claim to be the final word of god

Well according to your worldview it can’t be the final Word of God – there is no truth or falsity in your worldview because logic

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and reason are annihilated.

And saying that Sikhism is the final word of God is compatible with Sikhism is NOT the final Word of God for

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logic and reason are annihilated.

BTW postmodernism by its very nature is relativistic & therefore if you are espousing Hegelian reconstruction of Sikhism and postmodernism, it is a given that Sikhism CANNOT be the final Word of God.

Your real worldview comes to light when you write

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I just accept the infallibility of truth which is bani.

Once again you smuggle in the laws of logic by talking about “truth.” This is contrary to your worldview in which

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logic and reason are annihilated

whichmeans it is compatible with being fallible bani.Your worldview is intellectually bankrupt.Your real worldview is what we term fideism not postmodernism which is relativistic and would not allow you to make such absolute claims. This is further substantiated when you write:

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“how do you know?” – answer: because the guru says so!

This is classic fideism.In addition you contradicted yourself when you later said

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this doctrine is irrefutable and therefore the only true religious doctrine.

How can it be

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is irrefutable and therefore the only true religious doctrine

if there is no objective truth?

You write

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And how very convenient that you bring up the other scholar who if I remember correctly actually contradicted you by calling reason divine hukum and that reason in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji was used for social reform do you really think she means reason in the sense of apologetics

It is obvious you have not read the book I suggested and FYI I have met Prof. Gurnam Kaur and she means reason as deductive & inductive logic as in the quote from her book. The fact is you cannot live without logic.

As far as subjective experience goes please re-read my last post.

And then you write:

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you would get a severe beating if you were to try your tactics on any of those scholars they wont stand for your intellectual rubbish

You mean a singular scholar, namely your guru, Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia? Here’s a challenge, bring him on the discussion forum.

BTW what was your answer to the passage from the ultimate authority for a Sikh, the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? Here it is again.
“har kai bhaanai janam padaarath paa-i-aa mat ootam ho-ee.
By the Pleasure of the Lord's Will, the prize of this human birth is obtained, and the intellect is exalted.” (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p365 M3)
How come you want to disparage, contradict & disrespect your guru by saying that

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logic and reason are annihilated?

What are you going to with all the deductive reasoning in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji e.g. the Siddh Ghosht?

You write:

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you are living a life of unholy

How do you know and what has it to do with anything? We are not here to discuss my life. This is just an ad hominem attack and utterly irrelevant. I could say the same about you – so what?

You write: you

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have failed to enlighten me.

My friend you can lead a horse to water, you can’t make it drink and there are none so blind as those who will not see!



You write:

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you must play by our own rules if you would like a sikh perspective.

My friend, you mean YOUR (Inderjit’s) rules. But you (Inderjit) have no rules for

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logic and reason are annihilated.

By your (Inderjit’s) rules this is compatible with saying that I must NOT play by your rules if I would like a Sikh perspective. After all

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logic and reason are annihilated

and therefore a proposition & its contrary are compatible. Good luck to you but you certainly do not live life this way. It is a farce and shows the utter bankruptcy of such a view. Your bankrupt perspective, your worldview and paradigm is NOT the Sikh perspective, worldview or paradigm. So stop equating the two. Your worldview & the Sikh worldview are not equivocal. All you are doing is parroting and pontificating an aberrant view of a scholar who has gone off at a tangent by reconstructing Sikh philosophy via Hegelianism & postmodernism.

Then you write:

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your main aim has been to prove Sikhism to be illogical and deceiving

My dear friend please read the previous paragraph and do not jump to false conclusions; I have been proving that you (Inderjit) are illogical and your (Inderjit’s) reconstructed Sikh worldview via Hegelianism & postmodernism is fallacious and a distortion of Sikh philosophy as taught by the gurus in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Unlike you I have gone through every single statement made by you without picking and choosing which ones to address. You avoid many of my arguments and arrogantly dismiss them without a rebuttal. The quote from Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p365 M3 is just one such example. With one broad stroke you bury your head in the sand and arrogantly pontificate that

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logic and reason are annihilated.

Then according to your worldview this is compatible with logic and reason are NOT annihilated. I hope you got the point. If not, there is no hope for you and you are living in a make believe world – in cuckoo land. Like I said before, logic is a priori & it is undeniable for you cannot deny it without using it and you tie yourself up in epistemological knots.

Jass Singh

 
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Jass Singh Ji

“If they are annihilated do they resurrect just for you to use & then slip into non existence?”

this is true and exactly what I am saying, if I keep my mouth shut I would not have to stoop to your level of reason but my doctrine remains supreme. The sikh doctrine by the greatest philosopher on earth has taken the wind out of your sails that’s why you keep criticizing him if their was something you could find which was wrong you would have done it by now but you can’t so instead you do your own adhominem (r whatever you want to call it) attacks on him, and believe this matey all literature that comes from pataila university is written to be concordant with this doctrine so you are living in your own reality when you say it is dismissed by Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji or Sikhism , BTW you probably think I have forgotten but I am still waiting I think this is the 6th time, for you to show me how the doctrine breaks down so far you just re-configure your logical paragraphs which will have no bearing on me, do you have anything to add to this discussion? You then try to make believe that it is copycat philosophy but if you have actually read the books I suggested which I know you have not because I have proven your motives to be suspect once before, you would have seen that the philosopher actually disregarded Hegelian idea of spirit and said the idea of spirit in Sikhism was different. My gurus believed in sacrificing the mind body and soul to them and therefore when you try to talk about them as authors you are at the end of a long and growing list of dead and miserly philosophers who lived their whole lives on a lie and will live their lives with false merriment and missionary activities because they have no inner experience, wow that is the greatest sach on earth that’s why so many spirituality centres have been centre up because chriatianity is too crap to cater for the conditions of man.

“you cannot talk about something being true for it entails its contrary being false, which is logic”

you really are as thick as pigshit arnt you?, I have said for umpteen times that truth is some thing concrete it is spirit, now you think logic is right I think logic is wrong but that is not a truth it is an opinion truth has no hand in such things, WAKE UP. If Dr Jasbir Ji was as you have insulted him then tell me why is It that he holds such figures in the UN and many other seats in international affairs, you have failed to understand the surface of his work that’s why you keep repeating the same nonsense over and over again.

“By the Pleasure of the Lord's Will, the prize of this human birth is obtained, and the intellect is exalted.” (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji p365 M3)”

this does not support your position at all the intellect is not mat, mat is path of the mind, and this is because human birth is for one path and that is self realization which is what mind is used for we never need any intellect the Neanderthals were more holy than us.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christianity/24-many-christians-believe-jesus-god-what.html
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24

“My friend you can lead a horse to water, you can’t make it drink and there are none so blind as those who will not see!”

when the mind is naked a man is predictable, I foresee all your endeavours and hang you clean to dry so that you can recuperate your worth, but as a ***** likes to dance and enjoy the show so too does the missionary revel in his own psychosis.

Now I have addressed many points in your boring posts and I have one thing to day you are a fraud and a big one at that, the Sikhism we all know and love today is one which does not share a braincell with you, the Sikhism is a pure and unblemished doctrine which seeks to give succour to all peoples of differing faiths but it will never be drowned in the madness of logic and reason, there are many riddles in your bizarre network of philosophy and only you can know the real truth of what you are trying to portray but the simple fact remains that if logic and reason were important then why did the saints not got about their business like you do, the gurus never in their life did what you are doing today it was god in their words which awaken the soul.

However christiantity offers no such truth, it does offer a personal opinion of righteousness but that we do not consider to be important, you see the moral life will lead you to the moral life, immorality will lead you to immorality they can do nothing for your soul only its rebirth, you pick out one quote in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji which also disagrees with your perspective but leave out the abundance of treasures which ask you to achieve self-realization, this is your biggest sin to deny the infallibility of bani, you read it as if it were a book on non-fiction or fiction but it is neither it is a key to salvation it must be surrendered to otherwise you will continue on the highway of error.

This is becoming incredibly boring now and you have still not answered many of my questions perhaps because you know deep down inside your position is flawed but that as I have mentioned before is a relationship with you and your conscience/soul, and please don’t use my rebuttals against me it just shows how sad your ability to be creative and genuine is by siphoning excellence in the aim of building your own Christian agenda, but believe I will not give up until you answer my questions or until you give up. I eagerly await a simple response without all the logical crap just in simple terms the way I do which will prove to me that

a) our doctrine breaks down

b) how the bible is not personal opinion

Other than that the ***** in your court.

Inderjit Singh Dhillon

The English and Philosophy Teacher is suffering from some of the Psychological Ailments , one of which is "GOD COMPLEX".And there are similar ailments.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24

This Teacher is also suffering from one of the deficiency is "ATTENTION DEFICIENCY".

He has so much proficient knowledge in English and Philosophy , but none paid attention to him.

So, Instead of repeatedly making him understand , I think we all of us have to listen him first , understand him , Analyse Him and then Diagnose.

My dear friend devinesanative

You have indeed been silent, but since when have you become a psychoanalyst? Stop trying to psychoanalyze the person – it’s nothing but a cheap shot – a worthless ad hominem attack which is fallacious reasoning. Is this the best you can do –lower yourself to the level of attacking the person instead of his reasoning? It is intellectual dishonesty. A genuine seeker of Truth analyzes the person’s arguments. But alas this will take an investment of your time for you may need to go on a learning curve and may result in very uncomfortable cognitive dissonance (if it clashes with your deeply held beliefs).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24

Jass Singh

Why you are struck in this thread only , like a Hem and not moving beyond this thread .
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24

you repeated shout to start a new thread , but not .

You repeated shout to start a thread on historicity but not .

You have attacked and criticized almost all the members but not Vijaydeep ji's .

Why ???? can you just tell me ?

1. What is Intelligence ?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24
2. What is Spirituality ?
3. What is Rationality ?
4. How do you percieve this world ?
5. What is your Idea about this World ?
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24
6. Were you really Born ?
7. How did you Born and Why ?
8. Who was behind your Birth ?
9. I saw you talking with Jesus , Is it Right ?
10. Where is this world Going ?
11. Who is running this World ?
12. Who is behind the Universe ?
13. What is the purpose of life ?
14. What is the Theme of life ?
15. When did life Started ?
16. Is there any end to This World ?
17. Is there any Universe other than this ?
18. Do you really Exist or you are inside the Dreams of Some other Person ?
19. How do you Exist ?
20. From where did you Came from Where will you go ?


I hope these are enough ...... for you right now ........

Now Instead of Attacking me , Reply me gracefully and with documented Proof with a seal put by God.

My dear Inderjit

My goodness you have actually stooped to the LOW level of derogatory name calling

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you really are as thick as pigshit arnt you?

This is another example of an ad hominem attack & of the worst kind. Have you ever heard of manners & civility and you call yourself a guru’s Sikh? I wonder which guru would have modeled this behavior for you. Is this behavior a part of your so-called Sikh doctrine? How hypocritical can you get when you state that the purpose of Sikhism is

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to create a harmonious world of gurmukhs.

Is this how you model & reflect harmony & what a gurmukh should be?
It appears that you have the habit of continually committing the ad hominem fallacy:

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you are a fraud and a big one at that

I gave you a challenge and instead of trying to second guess what Jasbir Ahluwalia meant in his writings, bring him on the forum. I am sure he will say that you are MISREPRESENTING his views. BTW I have read his books and on page 47 of his book, The Sovereignty of the Sikh Doctrine, he writes:

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“That Sikhism does not claim to be the final revelation of reality accounts for its non-exclusivity…”

WOW straight from the horses mouth!!! Did you overlook something or what? How does that make you look like? It looks like YOU have not read his book and are indeed misrepresenting Ahluwalia’s doctrine. Why? Because you do not have the prerequisite foundational philosophical training and sophistication to appreciate what Ahluwalia is saying nor his paradigm! End of matter QED! Actually I need go no further as this alone debunks all your nonsense about your own manufactured so-called Sikh doctrine. It neither reflects Ahluwalia accurately nor the teachings of the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

You commit the classic ad populum (appeal to popularity). It is always incorrect to say that something is true because it is popular – numbers do not confer wisdom; the majority has been wrong very often. You actually go beyond this by attempting to use bandwagon propaganda which is very similar, except it adds a coercive aspect where people feel intimidated into accepting something. In addition to pressuring one to believe because most people do, there is the threat of rejection by the group. This is a particularly sinister technique as it attempts to eliminate diverse points of view by intimidation e.g. “Everyone knows that Jasbir Ahluwalia’s doctrine is true, so why do you persist in your outlandish claims?”

You also commit the fallacy of appealing to authority by saying:

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If Dr Jasbir Ji was as you have insulted him then tell me why is It that he holds such figures in the UN and many other seats in international affairs.

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An Appeal to Authority is not always fallacious, but always something a critical thinker must consider. It is where you are asked to accept something as true based upon the word of an expert (authority). We cannot be experts about everything and so must rely upon the judgment of others. But the expert must fulfill two conditions:
1) the expert is in fact an authority in a relevant area.
2) There does not exist significant contrary belief by equally competent experts.
The first is obvious but the second is often overlooked. The principle here that you are missing is that experts cancel each other out.
Endorsing Ahluwalia because of the UN or other public offices is also fallacious. Endorsement is a type of appeal to authority where someone puts their "stamp of approval" on an idea, candidate, or product.
You write:

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Sikhism we all know and love today is one which does not share a braincell with you, the Sikhism is a pure and unblemished doctrine which seeks to give succour to all peoples of differing faiths but it will never be drowned in the madness of logic and reason

Once again let me quote: Ahluwlia from his book, The Sovereignty of the Sikh Doctrine page10:

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There has been no conscious system-building attempt at presenting the Sikh doctrine in the form of a logically consistent framework – a gestalt-like organic structure – essential for knitting together Sikh ontology, Sikh ethics, Sikh sociology, Sikh polity, Sikh praxis into a coherent whole.

There you have it straight from the horse’s mouth – the pure and unblemished doctrine! Once again you are MISREPRESENTING Ahluwalia! Have you indeed read his book? Maybe it went in one ear and out the other. It looks like it is you who does not share a brain cell with Ahluwalia or true Sikhism. My dear friend, logic is a priori – you have no choice – even Ahluwalia recognizes this and declares your statement that

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logic and reason are annihilated

as nonsense!
You keep trying to muddy the waters by bringing up the issue of Christianity. This is the 3rd time I am requesting that if you are serious about your questions & objections start a new thread.

Inderjit, if you are intellectually honest you will have to admit that you do not have a leg to stand on and all your arguments so far have been flawed. Don’t believe me - believe the quotes directly from your guru i.e. Ahluwalia. So put this matter about

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logic and reason are annihilated

to rest and start learning what true Sikh doctrine is.It is OK to make mistakes but it is not OK to wallow in them stubbornly remaining in self-defensive denial after they have been shown to be fallacious. With all respect, you need to go back to the drawing board for you have a lot of learning to do. God bless.

Jass Singh

My dear devinesanative

I have repeatedly suggested that if anybody wants answers to their questions and objections about the reliability of the Bible & the historicity of the New Testament that they should start a new thread. If you are so eager, be my guest, the ball is in your court.

Satsriakal Jass Singh Ji

“Have you ever heard of manners & civility”

please accept my heart felt apologies.

“That Sikhism does not claim to be the final revelation of reality accounts for its non-exclusivity…”

this makes me howl your twisting things again and sidetracking oh my god you have to get some new material, and I said in my previous post that this means:

“You then go on to twist the highly esteemed scholar and most authoritative on Sikhism by saying that sikhsim does not claim to be the final word of god then call that laughable and guess what I will share in your laughter but only at your ignorance, you see we are not a totalitarian faith no one can fully sing the praises of god and all religions ARE EQUAL”

“You commit the classic ad populum (appeal to popularity).”

If I was doing this then surely I am wasting my time the consensus is 2 bilions Christians to 24 million Sikhs I think you have now become paranoid and it is quite scandalous of you to think I give a damn whether anybody cares what I think this is all my response to you as an individual so let me just make a statement to anyone who is reading this: LOOK AWAY!!!.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24

Then you go on to twist words again by producing a quote:

“There has been no conscious system-building attempt at presenting the Sikh doctrine in the form of a logically consistent framework – a gestalt-like organic structure – essential for knitting together Sikh ontology, Sikh ethics, Sikh sociology, Sikh polity, Sikh praxis into a coherent whole.”

What this means if in fact it even exists is that the sikh doctrine is one, all other works have been written about Sikhism and no one has ever tried to rewrite the doctrine and guess what that’s straight from the horses mouth, here some more quotes:

“A former IAS officer, Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia is recognized as a leading Sikh scholar and Punjabi writer, poet and critic. He has published more than two dozen books in English and Punjabi in the areas of philosophy, Sikhism, Punjabi prose, poetry and literary criticism. Ahluwalia's seminal work The Sikh Doctrine is considered an authoritative text on Sikh philosophy. The Times of India's editorial on The Sikh Doctrine hailed it as "an original contribution of the highest order to the development of modern Indian thought". Dr. Ahluwalia's latest book The Doctrine and Dynamism of Sikhism is a post-modernist look at Sikhism.
Ahluwalia has lectured abroad extensively on Sikhism, Indian philosophy and Punjabi literature. He served Punjabi University where he is now Vice Chancellor as its first Director for Development and Planning. Dr. Ahluwalia also set up the Punjab State University Text Book Board and served as its first Director. In his role as a distinguished scholar of Sikhism, Ahluwalia is on the International Editorial Board of World Faiths Encounter, the journal of the World Congress of Faiths.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=24
Jasbir Singh Ahluwalia was appointed Member-Secretary of the high-level Punjab Government committee in 1986 for preparing the draft of the All India Sikh Gurdwaras Legislation. Ahluwalia was a member of the State-level Khalsa Tercentenary Celebrations Committee of the Punjab Government as well as a member of the Anandpur Sahib Urban Planning and Development Authority and the Anandpur Sahib Foundation set up by the Punjab Government for the Khalsa Tercentenary projects.

Dr. Ahluwalia served as Chairman, Punjab School Education Board before he took over as Vice-Chancellor of Punjabi University, Patiala, in May 1999.”
I think it is high time to eat some humble pie compadre. Again you have failed to answer any of the questions that I wrote on the previous posts looks like the roaring lion is a wet cat never mind, I understand what this all about I decided to go to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and to do a search on spiritual ignorance which may clarify all of this and to my surprise guruji says:

“Attachment to Maya is an ocean of darkness (ignorance); neither this
shore nor the one beyond can be seen. The ignorant, Manmukhs suffer
in terrible pain; they forget God’s Name and drown. They arise in the
morning and perform all sorts of rituals, but they are caught in the love
of duality. Those who serve the True Guru cross over the terrifying
world-ocean. O Nanak, the Gurmukhs keep the True Name enshrined
in their hearts; they are absorbed into the True One (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji 89).”
I do not hate you but I do expect you to mend your ways otherwise there is no hope for you either.
With love,
Inderjit Singh Dhillon