Allah and Parbrahm are one and the same

Respected aad ji,
I am also surprised why Ek Musafir Ajanabi ji mentioned your name while pointing out some individuals who apposed him just for the sake of apposing. Randip Singh ji surprised me by apposing a crystal clear cut definition of concept of God in Islam and in Sikhism given by Ek Musfir ajanabi. Respected Gyani ji’s comments on Vista were totally a sad observation. Having so much expertise in English, why one needs to go that way, is beyond my comprehension. AKU has defined the concept of God in Islam and Sikhism pretty well; however, he misses a couple of things. Allah or Parbraham, literally are words, and words are what humans use to say any thing; noun or pronoun are also words. Aad Ji, the other thing you have completed it by adding concept of God in Christianity and Judaism. Concept of Sikhism of God, regardless the names( Noun or pronoun) given to HIM, is that He is one Creator and HE permeates in His creation, all the same, HE remains immaculate, beyond birth and death. My humble adition.

 
Do share your immediate thoughts or reactions on this issue? We value your views! Login Now! or Sign Up Today! to share your views with us.. Gurfateh!

__________________

Har Bisrat Sda Khuari - Mehla 5

Regards,
G. Singh

Let SPN become a 125,000 member community

Nam Jap ji

I agree that the shabad is of relevance -- for example,

aval alah noor upaa-i-aa kudrat kay sabh banday.
First, Allah created the Light; then, by His Creative Power, He made all mortal beings.

And no

In Gurbani, it is true that "alah" may used as the name of God, yet the concept of God in Guruji is different from that in Islam at the same time.

Fareed is the bhagat of this shabad. Is Sheik Fareed saying 'alah" to invoke God's name? Or is he invoking a God who is not part of his creation along the lines of aku ji's eplanation of name versus idea? I tend to think Fareed is saying God is in His Creation and that is why the shabad was/is included in the Adi Granth.

But that is different from saying that Allah and Parabraham are the same in religious discourse, that Muslims and Sikhs mean the same thing by Allah and Parabraham.

Another problem in my humble opinion is the problem of translation. This may be one of the outstanding examples of where English translations mislead understanding.

Page 897, Line 6
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/christianity/23175-allah-and-parbrahm-are-one-same.html
ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
एको अलहु पारब्रहम ॥५॥३४॥४५॥
Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

I don't agree with this translation. The translator added a lot of his own thinking and probably thought he was clearing things up. But the translation is not helpful, and may in fact reflect a bias of the translator.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175

ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥ ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175
Mihar ḏa▫i▫ā kar karnaihār. Bẖagaṯ banḏagī ḏėh sirjaṇhār
O the Creator shower your kindness, Oh the Creator bless me with your praise and meditation
( Here to the Lord prayer goes on)
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥ Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175
Nanak says whose doubts are shattered by the Guru, for them, whom people addressed Allah and Parbraham, is the same Creator
(Here progression in spirituality is hinted as per Guru Blessings)
Please note it down, in these Guru Vakas, difference in considered concept of God in Islam or Sikhism/Hinduism is not discussed at all, it is all about the one Super being that is addressed with different names.

Pk70 ji, Thank you for the shabad. It fits with the shabad below -- or am I wrong? The shabad below is the context for the line, ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
eaeko alahu paarabreham ||5||34||45|| The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Respectfully, I do not agree with the English translation The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Good enough would be "Allah and Paarbrahm are one and the same." The entire shabad sheds a different light, a different meaning for the line.

Shabad from Guru Arjan Dev ji in Raag Raamkalee Amg 897

ਓ*ੁਂ ਨਮੋ ਭਗਵੰਤ ਗੁਸਾਈ ॥
oun namo bhagavanth gusaaee ||
I humbly pray to invoke the Universal Lord God, the Lord of the World.


ਖਾਲਕੁ ਰਵਿ ਰਹਿਆ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਈ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥
khaalak rav rehiaa sarab thaaee ||1|| rehaao ||
The Creator Lord is all-pervading, everywhere. ||1||Pause||


ਜਗੰਨਾਥ ਜਗਜੀਵਨ ਮਾਧੋ ॥
jagannaathh jagajeevan maadhho ||
He is the Lord of the Universe, the Life of the World.


ਭਉ ਭੰਜਨ ਰਿਦ ਮਾਹਿ ਅਰਾਧੋ ॥
bho bhanjan ridh maahi araadhho ||
Within your heart, worship and adore the Destroyer of fear.


ਰਿਖੀਕੇਸ ਗੋਪਾਲ ਗਵਿੰਦ ॥
rikheekaes gopaal guovindh ||
The Master Rishi of the senses, Lord of the World, Lord of the Universe.

ਪੂਰਨ ਸਰਬਤ੍ਰ ਮੁਕੰਦ ॥੨॥
pooran sarabathr mukandh ||2||
He is perfect, ever-present everywhere, the Liberator. ||2||


ਮਿਹਰਵਾਨ ਮਉਲਾ ਤੂਹੀ ਏਕ ॥
miharavaan moulaa thoohee eaek ||
You are the One and only merciful Master,


ਪੀਰ ਪੈਕਾਂਬਰ ਸੇਖ ॥
peer paikaanbar saekh ||
spiritual teacher, prophet, religious teacher.


ਦਿਲਾ ਕਾ ਮਾਲਕੁ ਕਰੇ ਹਾਕੁ ॥
dhilaa kaa maalak karae haak ||
Master of hearts, Dispenser of justice,

ਕੁਰਾਨ ਕਤੇਬ ਤੇ ਪਾਕੁ ॥੩॥
kuraan kathaeb thae paak ||3||
more sacred than the Koran and the Bible. ||3||


ਨਾਰਾਇਣ ਨਰਹਰ ਦਇਆਲ ॥
naaraaein narehar dhaeiaal ||
The Lord is powerful and merciful.


ਰਮਤ ਰਾਮ ਘਟ ਘਟ ਆਧਾਰ ॥
ramath raam ghatt ghatt aadhhaar ||
The all-pervading Lord is the support of each and every heart.


ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵ ਬਸਤ ਸਭ ਠਾਇ ॥
baasudhaev basath sabh thaae ||
The luminous Lord dwells everywhere.

ਲੀਲਾ ਕਿਛੁ ਲਖੀ ਨ ਜਾਇ ॥੪॥
leelaa kishh lakhee n jaae ||4||
His play cannot be known. ||4||

ਮਿਹਰ ਦਇਆ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਨੈਹਾਰ ॥
mihar dhaeiaa kar karanaihaar ||
Be kind and compassionate to me, O Creator Lord.


ਭਗਤਿ ਬੰਦਗੀ ਦੇਹਿ ਸਿਰਜਣਹਾਰ ॥
bhagath bandhagee dhaehi sirajanehaar ||
Bless me with devotion and meditation, O Lord Creator.


ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥
kahu naanak gur khoeae bharam ||
Says Nanak, the Guru has rid me of doubt.

ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥
eaeko alahu paarabreham ||5||34||45||
The Muslim God Allah and the Hindu God Paarbrahm are one and the same. ||5||34||45||

Guru ji says, that the Universal Lord can be invoked. He invokes him. He is all pervading, ever-present, everywhere, that He dwells everywhere. Guruji also says, that He dwells in the heart and is worshipped in the heart. Guruji also says, He is the Master Rishi of senses (the master meaning spiritual teacher, above all the rishis or holy men of the Himalayas). The rehao line states that the Creator is pervading everywhere. So when the Shabad ends, how could Guruji be saying that Allah (a Muslim god) and Paarbraahm (a Hindu god) are one and the same. The translation is skewed about this. In my humble opinion, eaeko alahu paarabreham, means Allah and Parabraham are merged as one and the same. Why? Because in the context of the entire shabad, Allah and Paarbrahm are part of the all pervading Lord. Guru Arjan Dev says, he no longer doubts this.

And these words of Guruji are not consistent with the Muslim view of God. So it is important to distinguish Guruji's message from the Koranic message because Guruji is kuraan kathaeb thae paak. Humble apologies.

And these words of Guruji are not consistent with the Muslim view of God. So it is important to distinguish Guruji's message from the Quanic message because Guruji is kuraan kathaeb thae paak. Humble apologies.( quote aad ji )

Aad ji

Thanks for quoting the complete Guru Shabad, if we look it closely, first Guru ji is describing his concept of the Lord in the Shabad, he then says further that the Lord is more pure than ever expressed by others. This concept becomes clear to those whose doubts are shattered by the Guru. Here is the point, when those doubts about Him are eliminated by Guru, regardless the Names He is addressed by others, He is the same one super power.His devotees consider Allah the same. Obviously Guru Followers must understand that He is also addressed by others as Allah, if concept of God in Islam is different, that doesn’t change entity of the same inaccessible and immaculate Lord for Sikhs. Here His Name used by different faith is addressed not the concept as it was dealt in the earlier part of the Shabad( up to line 4),
ਕਹੁ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰਿ ਖੋਏ ਭਰਮ ॥ ਏਕੋ ਅਲਹੁ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ॥੫॥੩੪॥੪੫॥ Kaho Nānak gur kẖo▫e bẖaram. Ėko alhu pārbarahm. ||5||34||45||
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175
Nanak says whose doubts are shattered by the Guru, for them, whom people address Allah and Parbraham, is the same Creator

Doubtless concept of Guru ji is obviously different than of Islamic concept as it is depicted in this very Guru Shabad too

"Here is the point, when those doubts about Him are eliminated by Guru, regardless the Names He is addressed by others, He is the same one super power.His devotees consider Allah the same. Obviously Guru Followers must understand that He is also addressed by others as Allah, if concept of God in Islam is different, that doesn’t change entity of the same inaccessible and immaculate Lord for Sikhs." (by pk70 ji)
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175

pk70 veer ji

That explanation works for me.That is Guruji's word. Here is the point, when those doubts about Him are eliminated by Guru, regardless the Names He is addressed by others, He is the same one super power. But what I am also saying is that it is not the Quranic understanding.

Aad Ji,



Your explanation regarding the translation did cross my mind too.
But each time I try to have a firm position on what is the true meaning, it changes again. It's like a message being conveyed to me that there can be no definite meaning. Is this due to the effects in duality consciousness ?

NamJap ji,

It could be that there are several layers to the same meaning. Not several meanings.

How many times do you see the word Parbrahm appear in this shabad ?:

ਪੰਨਾ 70, ਸਤਰ 6
ਜਾ ਕਉ ਮੁਸਕਲੁ ਅਤਿ ਬਣੈ ਢੋਈ ਕੋਇ ਨ ਦੇਇ ॥
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=23175
जा कउ मुसकलु अति बणै ढोई कोइ न देइ ॥
Jā ka▫o muskal aṯ baṇai dẖo▫ī ko▫e na ḏe▫e.
When you are confronted with terrible hardships, and no one offers you any support,
ਮਃ 5 - view Shabad/Paurhi/Salok