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  #10 (permalink)  
Old 02-Jun-2010, 11:41 AM
Narayanjot Kaur's Avatar Narayanjot Kaur Narayanjot Kaur is offline
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Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

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Quote:
Originally Posted by truefriend111 View Post
@Narayanjot Kaur
I am sorry If i had Quoted out of context as you stated. But here in the above text i had quoted which says "it is the boat of Truth which will ferry us across" and this satement fits into any context. Because it's speaking about following the Truth.

If at all if do you think i am quoting Out of Context, i will be glad to know the context and why doesn't it fits ...

AS i like to quote verses from any scriptures while conversing with friends as far as they are align with righteousness.And i do like the above verse of Guru Granth Saheb which is right.

truefriend111 ji

I agree that the boat of Truth should fit into any context. And I will try to explain why the verse you quote is being used out of context as concisely as I can.

The shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contain a message for all humans of all times and all paths. Such was Guru Nanak's intention. That does not mean that any verse within any shabad can be applied in a "mix" and "match" fashion with the proverbs and verses from other scriptures belonging to other religions. Why not? The reason is that this verse, or any verse, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is embedded in a shabad. The shabad imbues the verse with meaning, and each verse helps the meaning of the shabad complete itself in our minds. .

Scriptures from all other religions do not send the same message as found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, even though all claim to convey the truth. That is why it is always a problem when a verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pulled out like the Ace of Spades from a deck of cards, and then is used to prove an argument or illustrate a point. Doing this is also like driving an automobile in reverse gear. The starting point is the shabad, not the verse. One needs to ask, "What is the lesson that is being conveyed by the shabad?" If we don't being this way, then the verse might be incorrectly applied.

-----------------------
If you look at this verse alone it seems to say one thing:

ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||
O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru


By itself the verse sounds and reads like a conclusion. The Truth will carry you across, so contemplate the Guru.
--------------------------
But it is not a "conclusion." The verse is introducing a more complex idea. It is the first step we must take if we want to meet and merge with the Creator. If we want to become a "radiant manifestation" of the One. The conclusion is to find contentment with the Naam, and to offer our bodies and souls to God.

When you read it in the context of the entire shabad, something greater is being taught, and the idea of the Guru's boat is the starting point.


ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||
O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.

ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥

eik aavehi eik jaavehee poor bharae ahankaar ||
Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.

ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥

manehath mathee booddeeai guramukh sach s thaar ||1||
Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||


ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
gur bin kio thareeai sukh hoe ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?

ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

jio bhaavai thio raakh thoo mai avar n dhoojaa koe ||1|| rehaao ||
As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||

ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥

aagai dhaekho ddo jalai paashhai hariou angoor ||
In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥

jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||
We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥

aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor ||2||
He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||

ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥

saahi saahi thujh sanmalaa kadhae n visaaraeo ||
With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You.

ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥

jio jio saahab man vasai guramukh anmrith paeo ||
The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥

man than thaeraa thoo dhhanee garab nivaar samaeo ||3||
Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||

ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

jin eaehu jagath oupaaeiaa thribhavan kar aakaar ||
The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar ||
The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥

ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥

guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas ||
Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥

sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||
They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥

naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas ||5||16||
O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16||


------------------------

This shabad is voicing a truth that is not taught or accepted by all the religions that you list: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians. And parts of it are actually contrary to Muslim belief. In Guru Nanak's time Sufi's were tortured and executed for expressing some of these very thoughts. Today Sufi worship, for example the Sema of the whirling dervishes, that espouses "meeting and merging with the True One " is illegal even in developed Muslim countries. It is permitted as a tourist attraction, not as a way of Muslim worship. So we can't take one verse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and say that it can be matched up with Scriptures from other religions. That is what I was trying to say.





 
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ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮੂੰ ਉਪਦੇਸੁ ਕਰਤੁ ਹੈ ਤਾ ਵਣਿ ਤ੍ਰਿਣਿ ਰਤੜਾ ਨਾਰਾਇਣਾ ॥
jae ko moon oupadhaes karath hai thaa van thrin ratharraa naaraaeinaa ||
If someone is going to teach me something, let that be that the Lord is pervading the forests and fields.
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  #11 (permalink)  
Old 14-Jun-2010, 12:23 PM
truefriend111's Avatar truefriend111 truefriend111 is offline
 
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Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

Quote:
Originally Posted by Narayanjot Kaur View Post
truefriend111 ji

I agree that the boat of Truth should fit into any context. And I will try to explain why the verse you quote is being used out of context as concisely as I can.

The shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji contain a message for all humans of all times and all paths. Such was Guru Nanak's intention. That does not mean that any verse within any shabad can be applied in a "mix" and "match" fashion with the proverbs and verses from other scriptures belonging to other religions. Why not? The reason is that this verse, or any verse, from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is embedded in a shabad. The shabad imbues the verse with meaning, and each verse helps the meaning of the shabad complete itself in our minds. .

Scriptures from all other religions do not send the same message as found in Sri Guru Granth Sahib, even though all claim to convey the truth. That is why it is always a problem when a verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib is pulled out like the Ace of Spades from a deck of cards, and then is used to prove an argument or illustrate a point. Doing this is also like driving an automobile in reverse gear. The starting point is the shabad, not the verse. One needs to ask, "What is the lesson that is being conveyed by the shabad?" If we don't being this way, then the verse might be incorrectly applied.

-----------------------
If you look at this verse alone it seems to say one thing:

ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥
naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||
O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru


By itself the verse sounds and reads like a conclusion. The Truth will carry you across, so contemplate the Guru.
--------------------------
But it is not a "conclusion." The verse is introducing a more complex idea. It is the first step we must take if we want to meet and merge with the Creator. If we want to become a "radiant manifestation" of the One. The conclusion is to find contentment with the Naam, and to offer our bodies and souls to God.

When you read it in the context of the entire shabad, something greater is being taught, and the idea of the Guru's boat is the starting point.


ਨਾਨਕ ਬੇੜੀ ਸਚ ਕੀ ਤਰੀਐ ਗੁਰ ਵੀਚਾਰਿ ॥

naanak baerree sach kee thareeai gur veechaar ||
O Nanak, the Boat of Truth will ferry you across; contemplate the Guru.

ਇਕਿ ਆਵਹਿ ਇਕਿ ਜਾਵਹੀ ਪੂਰਿ ਭਰੇ ਅਹੰਕਾਰਿ ॥

eik aavehi eik jaavehee poor bharae ahankaar ||
Some come, and some go; they are totally filled with egotism.

ਮਨਹਠਿ ਮਤੀ ਬੂਡੀਐ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਸਚੁ ਸੁ ਤਾਰਿ ॥੧॥

manehath mathee booddeeai guramukh sach s thaar ||1||
Through stubborn-mindedness, the intellect is drowned; one who becomes Gurmukh and truthful is saved. ||1||


ਗੁਰ ਬਿਨੁ ਕਿਉ ਤਰੀਐ ਸੁਖੁ ਹੋਇ ॥
gur bin kio thareeai sukh hoe ||
Without the Guru, how can anyone swim across to find peace?

ਜਿਉ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਉ ਰਾਖੁ ਤੂ ਮੈ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਦੂਜਾ ਕੋਇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥

jio bhaavai thio raakh thoo mai avar n dhoojaa koe ||1|| rehaao ||
As it pleases You, Lord, You save me. There is no other for me at all. ||1||Pause||

ਆਗੈ ਦੇਖਉ ਡਉ ਜਲੈ ਪਾਛੈ ਹਰਿਓ ਅੰਗੂਰੁ ॥

aagai dhaekho ddo jalai paashhai hariou angoor ||
In front of me, I see the jungle burning; behind me, I see green plants sprouting.

ਜਿਸ ਤੇ ਉਪਜੈ ਤਿਸ ਤੇ ਬਿਨਸੈ ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਸਚੁ ਭਰਪੂਰਿ ॥

jis thae oupajai this thae binasai ghatt ghatt sach bharapoor ||
We shall merge into the One from whom we came. The True One is pervading each and every heart.

ਆਪੇ ਮੇਲਿ ਮਿਲਾਵਹੀ ਸਾਚੈ ਮਹਲਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ॥੨॥

aapae mael milaavehee saachai mehal hadhoor ||2||
He Himself unites us in Union with Himself; the True Mansion of His Presence is close at hand. ||2||

ਸਾਹਿ ਸਾਹਿ ਤੁਝੁ ਸੰਮਲਾ ਕਦੇ ਨ ਵਿਸਾਰੇਉ ॥

saahi saahi thujh sanmalaa kadhae n visaaraeo ||
With each and every breath, I dwell upon You; I shall never forget You.

ਜਿਉ ਜਿਉ ਸਾਹਬੁ ਮਨਿ ਵਸੈ ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤੁ ਪੇਉ ॥

jio jio saahab man vasai guramukh anmrith paeo ||
The more the Lord and Master dwells within the mind, the more the Gurmukh drinks in the Ambrosial Nectar.

ਮਨੁ ਤਨੁ ਤੇਰਾ ਤੂ ਧਣੀ ਗਰਬੁ ਨਿਵਾਰਿ ਸਮੇਉ ॥੩॥

man than thaeraa thoo dhhanee garab nivaar samaeo ||3||
Mind and body are Yours; You are my Master. Please rid me of my pride, and let me merge with You. ||3||

ਜਿਨਿ ਏਹੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ਤ੍ਰਿਭਵਣੁ ਕਰਿ ਆਕਾਰੁ ॥

jin eaehu jagath oupaaeiaa thribhavan kar aakaar ||
The One who formed this universe created the creation of the three worlds.

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਚਾਨਣੁ ਜਾਣੀਐ ਮਨਮੁਖਿ ਮੁਗਧੁ ਗੁਬਾਰੁ ॥

guramukh chaanan jaaneeai manamukh mugadhh gubaar ||
The Gurmukh knows the Divine Light, while the foolish self-willed manmukh gropes around in the darkness.

ਘਟਿ ਘਟਿ ਜੋਤਿ ਨਿਰੰਤਰੀ ਬੂਝੈ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਸਾਰੁ ॥੪॥

ghatt ghatt joth nirantharee boojhai guramath saar ||4||
One who sees that Light within each and every heart understands the Essence of the Guru's Teachings. ||4||

ਗੁਰਮੁਖਿ ਜਿਨੀ ਜਾਣਿਆ ਤਿਨ ਕੀਚੈ ਸਾਬਾਸਿ ॥

guramukh jinee jaaniaa thin keechai saabaas ||
Those who understand are Gurmukh; recognize and applaud them.

ਸਚੇ ਸੇਤੀ ਰਲਿ ਮਿਲੇ ਸਚੇ ਗੁਣ ਪਰਗਾਸਿ ॥

sachae saethee ral milae sachae gun paragaas ||
They meet and merge with the True One. They become the Radiant Manifestation of the Excellence of the True One.

ਨਾਨਕ ਨਾਮਿ ਸੰਤੋਖੀਆ ਜੀਉ ਪਿੰਡੁ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਪਾਸਿ ॥੫॥੧੬॥

naanak naam santhokheeaa jeeo pindd prabh paas ||5||16||
O Nanak, they are contented with the Naam, the Name of the Lord. They offer their bodies and souls to God. ||5||16||


------------------------

This shabad is voicing a truth that is not taught or accepted by all the religions that you list: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians. And parts of it are actually contrary to Muslim belief. In Guru Nanak's time Sufi's were tortured and executed for expressing some of these very thoughts. Today Sufi worship, for example the Sema of the whirling dervishes, that espouses "meeting and merging with the True One " is illegal even in developed Muslim countries. It is permitted as a tourist attraction, not as a way of Muslim worship. So we can't take one verse of Sri Guru Granth Sahib and say that it can be matched up with Scriptures from other religions. That is what I was trying to say.
What do you mean by "OUT OF CONTEXT"---A verse or a statement which when read not in align with the context gives an different meaning & when read with the context interprets different meaning.--- I THINK YOU GOT IT.


Comments in bold, caps, and color have been removed. Please abide by the TOS. Narayanjot Kaur.

Last edited by Narayanjot Kaur; 14-Jun-2010 at 19:26 PM.
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  #12 (permalink)  
Old 14-Jun-2010, 19:27 PM
Narayanjot Kaur's Avatar Narayanjot Kaur Narayanjot Kaur is offline
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Re: Sikhs, Hindus, Muslims and Christians the relationship ! A simplistic model

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truefriend111 ji

Thank you for quoting all that beautiful shabad so we can read it twice. By out of context is meant, out of the context of the shabad. Quoting a single verse distorts meaning of the Guru, and is also not in line with our TOS. Hope that is clear.
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