Baba Farid in Guru Granth Sahib

kds1980 · #1 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2011, 14:51 PM

So I am starting new thread on this topic.Some people Believe that Baba Farid whose Bani is in Guru granth Sahib is Baba Farid of Shakarganj some believe that he was Baba farid sani who met Guru Nanak Please share your thoughts and knowledge
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kds1980 · #2 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2011, 15:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by aristotle

Brother,
Being a missionary doesen't always mean wrong. When we say Baba Farid was a muslim missionary we start imagining a person with a dark-green turban who swears at the very sight of 'qaafirs' and spends his whole time devising new methods to convert them to Islam. The present missionaries may be like the stereotypes but not Baba Farid, at least this is what I believe. There wasn't any Sikhism (as an organised religion, bcoz Baba Farid had died even before Guru Nanak Sahib was born), so there were only two dominant religions Hinduism and Islam at that time, and Baba Farid believed in Islam (Even as other Bhagats who were either Muslim or Hindu, by birth or by choice, that doesen't mean the Sikhs who believe in their teachings are Hindus or Muslims).
The big question is, WHY did the Gurus include Baba Farid's bani in the Guru Granth Sahib. They wouldn't, for sure had done so, had Baba Farid been a qaafir-hating savage muslim mullah. They did so because he was a true Sufi, a mystic. The words like namaaz, Allah etc. which appear in his Bani are a direct consequence of his Muslim upbringing (For example, for a child living in a Celtic household in Scotland, the only religious place is a 'Church', he may even call a 'Gurudwara' as a 'Sikh Church') and has nothing to do with the alleged qaafir-hating nature. The first thing we should do is to read the underlined message of Sikhism from Baba Farid's Bani, that way, friend we may better be able to judge his true personality. History books are man-made, Bani is Eternal.

Well if look at Guru granth Sahib ,no bani of Hindu or muslim preachers were included as Sikhism rejects both

Here is I want to show you some poiints from a discussion on Tapoban

Quote:

-Baba Farid Jee whose bani is in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani, and not the Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century. Bhagat Farid Jeeâ€™s bani is the biggest proof of him being a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee. Even the present head of Baba Farid Jeeâ€™s spiritual order Prof. Khalil Nizami says the bani in Guru Granth Sahib Jee is that of Farid Sani. Bhai Vir Singh Jee, Prof. Teja Singh Jee, and Budh Singh all agree to this opinion that the Bani written in Guru Granth Sahib jee is that of Farid Sani the contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev Jee, and not Baba Farid the Afghan who lived during the 12th century.

The proof of Baba Farid Jee meeting Guru Nanak Dev Jee is his Bani. Fareed Jee writes:

JO GUR DASAY WAATH MUREEDA JOLEA|| (Asa sheikh farid 477)
KAR KIRPA PRAB SAADHSANG MELEE|| (Farid soohi 794)

Muslim sufis never use words such as â€œGurâ€�, â€œSaadhâ€� or "Prabh". According to a book written by Prof. Khalil Nizami spiritual head of Baba Farid Jeeâ€™s spiritual order these words were written by Farid Sani because he was heavily influenced by Guru Nanak Dev jee, this is confirmed by the writer of "Swanay Farid".

Quote:

I just want to add to what S. Singh has written about Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj meeting Baba Farid jee. The original Baba Farid lived about 300 years prior to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. Here are some of the points to be noted with respect to him:

1) All Pakistani scholars agree that this Baba Farid jee did not write any baani at all. He was not a poet.

2) He was not a native of Punjab and as such could not have written such purely native countryside Punjabi. It is like asserting that Shakespeare was not English but a German writer. A non-English person could not have written what Shakespeare wrote. Same way, a non-Punjabi could not have written the kind of Punjabi that is in Gurbani under Baba Farid jee name.

3) The Punjabi used in Baba Farid jee’s baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee is of the same time as Guru Nanak Sahib jee. All linguistics agree to this. If this baani had been written 300 years before Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee, it would have been drastically different. Just compare the Punjabi written today to Punjabi of Siri Guru Gobind Singh jee’s times.

4) Farid Shakarganj i.e. the Senior Farid, was a staunch Muslim who converted thousands of Hindus to Islam. He was very strict in Sharia and he would have never used non-Islamic words like “Saadh” in his baani.

Now the question arises that if the baani in Siri Guru Granth Sahib jee was not written by Baba Farid Shakarganj then who is the writer of this baani? The answer is very simple. As written in the Janamsaakhis, the writer of this baani was Farid Saani, who was sitting on the gaddi of the original Farid. His name was Sheikh Ibrahim but he was also known as Farid Saani and it was he who met Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee Maharaaj.

It is this Sheikh Ibrahim, whose spiritual thirst was quenched by Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee. He wrote the following shabad to Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee:

soohee lalith ||

baerraa ba(n)dhh n sakiou ba(n)dhhan kee vaelaa ||
.

bhar saravar jab ooshhalai thab tharan dhuhaelaa ||1||

hathh n laae kasu(n)bharrai jal jaasee dtolaa ||1|| rehaao ||

eik aapeenhai pathalee seh kaerae bolaa ||

dhudhhaa thhanee n aavee fir hoe n maelaa ||2||

kehai fareedh sehaeleeho sahu alaaeaesee ||

ha(n)s chalasee ddu(n)manaa ahi than dtaeree thheesee ||3||2||

This shabad of Baba Farid jee portrays the thirst of Baba jee very clearly. He is literally begging for spirituality. In response to this shabad, Siri Guru Nanak Dev jee wrote the following shabad:

soohee mehalaa 1 ||

jap thap kaa ba(n)dhh baerrulaa jith la(n)ghehi vehaelaa ||

naa saravar naa ooshhalai aisaa pa(n)thh suhaelaa ||1||

thaeraa eaeko naam ma(n)jeet(h)arraa rathaa maeraa cholaa sadh ra(n)g dtolaa ||1|| rehaao ||

saajan chalae piaariaa kio maelaa hoee ||

jae gun hovehi ga(n)t(h)arreeai maelaegaa soee ||2||

miliaa hoe n veeshhurrai jae miliaa hoee ||

aavaa goun nivaariaa hai saachaa soee ||3||

houmai maar nivaariaa seethaa hai cholaa ||

gur bachanee fal paaeiaa seh kae a(n)mrith bolaa ||4||

naanak kehai sehaeleeho sahu kharaa piaaraa ||

ham seh kaereeaa dhaaseeaa saachaa khasam hamaaraa ||5||2||4||

He cries that “bhar Sarvar jabb uchhalai, tabb taran dulela” but Guru Baba jee says “Na sarvar na uchhalai, aisa panth suhela”. He says that his spiritual path is very hard but Siri Guru jee says that the Gurmat path is very easy and full of bliss.

He says "BeRa bandh na sakhiyo" Siri Guru jee says, "Jap tap ka bandh beRla". He says that he has not been able to build his ship to swim across this ocean of world. Siri Guru jee says that if he has not build it yet, then he can now build the ship of Jap-Tap. What a great shabad Siri Guru jee's is! Just amazing. This shabad is most beautiful. I wish some gursikh sing this shabad and I may just listen to it till eternity.

Just compare the two shabads and no one can deny that one was written in response to the other one.

After hearing Siri Guru jee’s shabad, Farid Saani jee became disciple of Guru Nanak Paatshaah. There is no doubt about it. Sirii Guru jee and he met 3 times in total.

http://www.tapoban.org/phorum/read.p...841&t=8841&v=f

The arguments given above are quite solid one difficult to refute

spnadmin · #3 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2011, 20:48 PM

kds1980 ji

This comment is probably indefensible

Quote:

Well if look at Guru granth Sahib ,no bani of Hindu or muslim preachers were included as Sikhism rejects both

The hymns of the bhagats and Sheik Farid that we find in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji are there ...we know why they are there...because they were selected by Guru Arjan Dev to be part of the Aad Granth. They are bani because Guru Arjan Dev deemed to include them. They are bani only because they were selected...and all the writings of the sants, bhagats and Farid that were not included are irrelevant.

So the case made by Tapoban may be of historical interest, the later part that you posted quite fascinating. But also something of a distraction. Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.

Is it not somewhat irrelevant to the message of Sheik Farid? Is the historical identity of Sheik Farid more important than the message of his bani?

aritstotle ji was making an important statement, one that disengages religious prejudice from vichaar of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji . Nothing he says really pertains to which Baba which century, but goes to the message itself.

Quote:

The big question is, WHY did the Gurus include Baba Farid's bani in the Guru Granth Sahib. They wouldn't, for sure had done so, had Baba Farid been a qaafir-hating savage muslim mullah. They did so because he was a true Sufi, a mystic. The words like namaaz, Allah etc. which appear in his Bani are a direct consequence of his Muslim upbringing (For example, for a child living in a Celtic household in Scotland, the only religious place is a 'Church', he may even call a 'Gurudwara' as a 'Sikh Church') and has nothing to do with the alleged qaafir-hating nature. The first thing we should do is to read the underlined message of Sikhism from Baba Farid's Bani, that way, friend we may better be able to judge his true personality. History books are man-made, Bani is Eter

OSingh · #4 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2011, 21:33 PM

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'So the case made by Tapoban may be of historical interest, the later part that you posted quite fascinating. But also something of a distraction. Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.'
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bhagats/36530-baba-farid-in-guru-granth-sahib.html

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This statement made against Akhand Kirtani Jatha is totally wrong. AKJ has Never Ever questioned the authenticity of bhagat bani or tried to undermine Guru Granth Sahib ji. Please show me one akhar, one sentence where AKJ have discredited bhagat bani or undermined Guru Granth Sahib. Infact Bhai Sahib Randhir Singh was a premi of bhagat bani, bhai sahib has quoted bhagat bani extensively in his books.

Its unfortunate you have made this statement. Trying to link anti panthic acitivities of Teja Singh Bhasaur and bhai sahib bhai Randhir Singh is wrong.

AKJ are doing and have been doing kirtan seva of Gurbani across the globe since the times of bhai sahib. Through their kirtan, which includes bani from bhagats, they have attached countless sikhs to sri Guru Granth Sahib. You can find so much kirtan on the net from akj that will have shabads from bhagat Kabir ji, bhagat Farid ji etc

Teja Singh Bhasaur and Bhai Randhir Singh were friends before bhai sahib went to jail. Initially Teja Singh had been doing good seva for the panth through chief khalsa diwan organisation. However afterwards Teja Singh drifted away from Gurmat and even went as far as removing bhagat bani from Guru Granth Sahib. However bhai sahib had nothing at all to do with this! Infact after bhai sahib learnt of anti-panthic activities bhai sahib refused to meet Teja Singh:-

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After Bhai Sahib's release, Babu Teja Singh tried to meet his old friend after twenty years and came to his house to resurrect their old friendship. Bhai Sahib was not there at that moment. When he came to know later of Babu Ji's visit, Bhai Sahib wrote him a letter politely declining to meet him. The contents of the letter are very moving and reveal the true personality of Bhai Sahib and his unshakable and abiding faith in the Sikh tenets, values and traditions. It is therefore considered worthwhile to reproduce the English translation of the same below:

"Babu Teja Singh ji, Waheguru ji ki Fateh. You, dear Sir, have come to see this humble servant of the Panth after one fifth of a century, i.e., 20 years. I was no less eager to have the chance of meeting with you and talking together. But I was deeply pained when I learnt that you have been excommunicated from the Panth by a congregation at Sri Akal Takht. What is even more distressing, you continue to disregard the authority of the Panth. It is now my request that you should be obedient to the Command of the Guru Panth and return to its shelter. Then we shall meet like brothers. It is my hope that you will accede to my request and thereby please the hearts of all of us. I am confident that you will not defy the Guru Panth and will abide by the tradition coming down through generations. Your sincere well wisher (s) Randheer Singh"9
Thus, no personal relationship would deflect Bhai Sahib from obeying in letter and spirit the edicts of the Guru Panth issued from Sri Akal Takht Sahib.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530
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Giani Gurdit Singh has also written a great book on the history of bhagats whose bani is in Guru Granth Sahib called "Ithas Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji - Bhagat Bani". Giani ji has done extensive research proving that indeed bani of Sheikh Farid ji in Guru Granth Sahib is not that of Farid Shakarganj ji but that of Farid Sani ji. Giani ji has done great reearch into puratan literature to prove this fact.

Trying to establish the history behind the bhagats does not mean that you are trying to discredit them. How can carrying out research into life of bhagats mean you are trying to discredit Guru Granth Sahib?! Shouldn't we as a panth trying to be carrying out more research into our history?

Rabb Rakhe

kds1980 · #5 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2011, 22:49 PM

Quote:

Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.

Spnadmin ji

I just want to say that the views are from forum of Tapoban and not officially of AKJ.Tapoban was at one time number 1 forum of sikh discussions and lot of sikhs use to participate on that.The Gyani ji of SPN himself was one of the biggest poster on Tapoban .Sikhnet is sponsered by 3ho so one cannot say that all the views on the forum of sikhnet are of 3HO.At present Tapoban forum is quite dead but still its old forum has lot of useful discussions.

And yes the identity of Bhagat Farid is important ,if we can discuss that Bhagat Namdev was idol worshipper or not then why can't we discuss that Farid ji was what type of muslim?

OSingh · #6 (**permalink**) 02-Aug-2011, 23:04 PM

The issue is not whether views of tapoban are official AKJ views. So what if Gurdwara Tapoban sahib is aligned to AKJ. If you want want to learn more about akhand kirtani jatha then please read books of bhai Randhir Singh and jeevan(life) of various gursikhs from this jatha.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

The following statements made are totally wrong:

'Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. '

and

'Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture. So I am not surprised to read there is some detailed questioning of the identity of Sheik Farid.'

To suggest that AKJ are trying to undermine Guru Granth Sahib can't be further from the truth. Gursikhs like bhai Fauja Singh ji and bhai Avtar Singh ji gave their lives for Guru Granth Sahib in 1978 nirankari attack.

Trying to connect AKJ with chief khalsa diwan is false. Any connection bhai sahib had with this organistion was to promote Gurmat values.

I also agree with kds1980 ji that we should discuss the lives and historical facts of Bhagat sahiban. Doing research into the lives of bhagats doesn't mean you are trying to undermine them. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is well researched and I urge sangat to read it.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh

spnadmin · #7 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2011, 01:30 AM

I am not disputing the value of historical information one iota. I am asking about the relevance of the discussion regarding Baba Fareed to this statement

Quote:

also agree with kds1980 ji that we should discuss the lives and historical facts of Bhagat sahiban. Doing research into the lives of bhagats doesn't mean you are trying to undermine them. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is well researched and I urge sangat to read it

We know that none of the Gurus signed their names to their bani. Guru Arjan Dev inscribed himself on the pages of Aad Granth as Nanak 5. This means that the personal identities of the Bhagats and sants, as well as the gurus, was not as important as their message. All given in the voice of Nanak.

So I question why it is even important to raise the issue as a rejection of Muslim or Hindu identities. Seems not entirely relevant to, and certainly not a repudiation of, what our forum member aristotle had posted.

And please do not confuse issues with straw man statements like this

Quote:

I just want to say that the views are from forum of Tapoban and not officially of AKJ.Tapoban was at one time number 1 forum of sikh discussions and lot of sikhs use to participate on that.The Gyani ji of SPN himself was one of the biggest poster on Tapoban .Sikhnet is sponsered by 3ho so one cannot say that all the views on the forum of sikhnet are of 3HO.At present Tapoban forum is quite dead but still its old forum has lot of useful discussion

Contextual specifics, but also red herrings, that have no bearing.

spnadmin · #8 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2011, 01:31 AM

OSingh ji

NO!

Quote:

Trying to connect AKJ with chief khalsa diwan is false. Any connection bhai sahib had with this organistion was to promote Gurmat values.

I am saying the exact opposite. The rupture occured with Panj Khalsa Diwan. AKJ has been the historical descendants of that movement.

Quote:

also agree with kds1980 ji that we should discuss the lives and historical facts of Bhagat sahiban. Doing research into the lives of bhagats doesn't mean you are trying to undermine them. Giani Gurdit Singh's book is well researched and I urge sangat to read it

I agree that history is very important. I do not think that history can be successfully used to "reject" Muslim or Hindu sources, or inject religious prejudice into Guru Granth Sahib.

kds1980 · #9 (**permalink**) 03-Aug-2011, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spnadmin

I am not disputing the value of historical information one iota. I am asking about the relevance of the discussion regarding Baba Fareed.

We know that none of the Gurus signed their names to their bani. Guru Arjan Dev inscribed himself on the pages of Aad Granth as Nanak 5. This means that the personal identities of the Bhagats and sants, as well as the gurus, was not as important as their message. All given in the voice of Nanak.

So I question why it is even important to raise the issue as a rejection of Muslim or Hindu identities. Seems not entirely relevant, and certainly not a repudiation of what our forum member aristotle had posted.

I agree with you that important is message of Bhagats ,but on the other hand should know who were the Bhagats ? If the lives of Bhagats are so unimportant then why sikhhistory.com has section on Bhagats.Is it O.K for us
believe that baba farid of guru granth sahib is baba farid of shakarganj which might be not true

If the baani is Guru granth sahib is of BABA FARID SAANi and we consider it as bani of Farid of shakarganj who may had been a muslim missionary then it could become a tool in the hand of muslim missionaries to spread lies about sikhism and brainwash few sikh youths which don't have much knowledge of Sikhism