Baba Farid in Guru Granth Sahib

kds ji

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I am not worried Why should I be ?What I am just trying to say that Why should Sikhs keep on believing That Baba Farid of Shakarganj is the author of Guru granth sahib's bani if he is not? Why should Sikh sites have Chapters on him if he has no connection with sikhism

'the rupture occured with Panj Khalsa Diwan. AKJ has been the historical descendants of that movement.'

I made a mistake, the organsition was panch khalsa diwan. The above statement makes no sense. Have you even read my post? Why are you still trying to connect AKJ with Panch Khalsa Diwan? Bhai Randhir Singh completely dissassosiated himself with Teja Singh Bhasaur, who worked in this organisation. After bhai sahib was released from jail he had no connection with this organistion, instead he did parchar through kirtan of Gurbani and connected many Sikhs to Guru Granth Sahib ji. (Bhai sahib may have worked in this organisation to promote Gurmat principles, it was Teja Singh Bhasaur however who later drifted away from Gurmat and started to promote anti-Gurmat ideology for which he was kicked out of the panth).
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/bhagats/36530-baba-farid-in-guru-granth-sahib.html

Trying to connect AKJ to Panch Khalsa Diwan to say that they undermine Guru Granth Sahib is ridiculous. Please provide one shred of evidence that AKJ try to undermine bhagat bani or Guru Granth Sahib.

Please read giani Gurdit Singh ji's book. He has provided many arguments to prove sheikh Sani ji's bani is incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib ji and not sheikh Farid Shakarganj ji's.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

Your argument that since Guru's only used Nanak in their bani therefore we should not read about their lives doesn't make any sense.

Just because Farid Sani ji's bani is incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib this is somehow 'religious prejudice'? We are just trying to figure out who was the author of bani- sheikh Farid ji. Giani Gurdit Singh has used many old sources to prove that the author of this bani is Sheikh Sani ji. Should we just ignore this evidence?

Admin note: The discussion of the AKJ is taking us off topic so please can we refocus.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

Also please can all posters stop making emotional arguments and try and stick to facts or historical evidence that has been reported that can be discussed and backed up.
Thanks.

There is a group of people who sincerely beleive that there is no such thing as Hndus/Muslims etc who contributed to Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji and that ALL contributors are SIKHS.

2. This same group then tries to prove that ALL these bhagats Sheikhs etc met Guru nanak ji in person or were alive during His time.

3. Another Group also beleives the same..albeit a little differently. This Group - mostly Taksallis Babas sants and mahapurashs of derawallahs..insist that when Guru Arjun ji was compiling the AAD GRANTH (Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji)...ALL these Bhagats, Sheikhs etc appeared in SPIRIT FORM..and requested Guru ji to HONOUR them by incorporating their Banis in the AAD GRANTH. Some other Living Bhagts also came (but they were rejected and thus they went before Emperor jehangir to lodge complaints against Guru Arjun ji leading to His Martyrdom). Whats even more BIZARE is...this same fairy tale also has the RAAGAS, their wives the RAAGNNEES and their children/grankids etc etc..also appearing before Guru Arjun Ji and asking to be HONOURED becasue they were used in Gurbani...and thats how RAAGMAALA came to be written !! and its Gurbani !!!

4. Its a FACT..beyond dispute that what we call "Hindu" or "Muslim" were NOT at all accepted as such by their co-religionists. Bhagat Kabir Ji, bahagt Dhanna Ji, bahgat Ravidass Ji bahgat namdev Ji..were NEVER accepted as HINDU by the Hindus..not then and not now. Same goes for Sheikh farid Ji and other "muslim" contributors. To the Islamic world these are APOSTATES....No muslim today would agree with what we read in Sheikh farid Jis SLOKS in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.

5. Its also undisputable that GURU NANAK JI sahib and GURU ARJUN JI Sahib and finally Guru Gobind Singh ji accepted those writings, as EQUAL to theirs because PRIMARILY it was SIKH...perfectly in LINE with what Guru sahibs wrote themselves. Guru Ji has REJECTED a lot of Kabir bani..becasue that did not agree with GURMATT. Guru nanak ji/Guru Arjun Ji sahib CHOSE and selected relevant portions of thes banis very carefully so that today when we read the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji no bani contradicts any other even remotely.

SO its the "Divine MESSAGE" within and not the OUTWARD FORM of the writer that mattered to GURU JI.....why that form should matter to us is beyond me.....except that we propogate the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji as "universal" based NOT on its Universal message..BUT on the "different human forms".."Hindu look alikes like Bhagat Kabir Ji, bhagat dhanna Ji, namdev Ji, ravidass Ji...."Muslim" look alikes like SHEIKH Farid...and occupational look alikes like the Butcher sadhna, the Leather shoe maker ravidass, the Weaver kabir, the farmer Dhanna, the Brahmin the Pandit etc etc. Following this faulty logic..the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji wouldnt be "universal" to a JEW..a Christian..a Buddhist..simply becasue there are no JEW look alikes, Chrstian Look alikes or Buddhist look alikes contributing any bani in Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji ?? BUT the FACTS speak otherwise..its the DIVINE MESSAGE OF Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji that is TRULY UNIVERSAL....not the human bodies/sreers. Guru nanak ji made the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji truly Universal by practising INCLUSIVENESS and not "exclusiveness"

5, Which brings me to the last point..albeit a little off topic...but since it was mentioned...i offer my views....The T-Forum was once a Boharr..a huge tree that stood tall and proud on the Landscape of Sikh internet Forums ...flying the Flag of Sikhi/Gurmatt high...and then along came "gyanis" who were really "agyanis" and EXCLUSIVENESS and not INCLUSIVENESS began to be practised....today T-Forum is a dead khundh (tree trunk)..with almost no posts....luckily a few of the originals who practise "inclusiveness" of Guru nanak ji..planted a new sapling nearby and gurmatbibek flourishes..in time it will grow to be the new baba boharr of Sikh Forums...Guru Willing.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

6. afterthought..the SRM presently adopted by Akal takhat/SGPC since 1935 is almost a CARBON COPY of the ORIGINAL Sikh REHAT put together by the Now defunct Panch Khalsa Diwan Bhassaurr. AKJ also follows this Rehat maryada in a stricter form - so although its historicaly TRUE that Bhai randheer Singh of AKJ BROKE OFF completley from hsi old time dear friend babau teja Singh bhassaur of PKD, the moment he was excommunicated by JAT for printing a Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji solely of GURU SAHIB BANIS ONLY. BSB Randhir Singh ji never saw Teja singh again as all Sikhs were "banned" from seeing him. ( At that time the JAT was more Gurmatt friendly" and made Panthic decisoins and so were more RESPECTED than the JATT now who is more Badal friendly and makes decisions based on what badal decides rather than what is Gurmatt/Panthic...and is THUS not many obey his excommunication bans and people continue to meet up with supposedly banned excommunicated poersons like prof darshan singh). SO it was a PERSON-TO-PERSON break up and not idelogical break up...on Raagmalla not being Gurbani the AKJ stand is 100% simialr to that of PKD. Raagmala was not read at PKD Diwans even in malaysia. ON DG also both stand smilarly. ON Meat also both share the same ultra strict NO MEAT AT ALL stand.

History Vs Gurbani.

1. SIKH GURUS gave NIL importance to HUMAN BODY...birthdays..anniversaries..etc etc. That is why NO GURU ever worte any "personal" histories....( The Bhai bala Janamsakhi - proven fake- is the only Janamsakhi. Ever wondered WHY the other GURUS never sanctioned a Guru Angad janamsakhi..a Guru Amardass Ji janamsakhi..?? etc etc..The NEXT Fakes to come on the scene is Gurbilas Pat 6th..Gurbilas pat 10 and bachitar natak !! And ALL written about the same TIME PERIOD as the Bhai bala janamsakhi based on language vocabualry used etc )

2. The Sikh Gurus even disallowed their own individual names..preferring NUMERALS...HUMILITY. ALL used NANAK to signify that the Divine Message of nanak is all the SAME throughout...only the body changes..the message remains the same...
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530
There is no "history"of any Guru in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We should follow the same line of thought and not dwell too much on whos who...because Whos WHO are usually for thsoe who seek publicity and FAME versus the HUMILITY sought by the Guru sahibs.
To a SIKH it shoudlnt matter which GURU is saying what...is a Jeewan jaach provided by Guru nanak ji any less/more "valuable"/worthy than that given by Guru teg bahadur Ji ?? NO. it should not matter. Simialrly it doesnt matter which particualr SHEIKH FARID it is..shakarganj..Gurrganj...khandganj..Mitthah Ganj...or namkeen ganj....whatever....the important thing is to FOLLOW what the SLOKS tell US....IF we spent all our lives searching the real "ganj"..and never followed the SLOKS we read at BHOG time....will GURU JI be pleased ?? I dont think so...perrh ginneh ke aamb khanneh..are we going to count the trees or eat the fruits ?? While we are busy counting how many trees..others will have eaten their fill and burped...away into heaven...

4 On the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji one wont find even once the name of GURU ARJUN JI...but just walk into a bookshop and buy/get free a Gutka of say..Sukhmani sahib...you will see on the COVER boldy printed..SEWA karwaii Baba Thakur Singh ji thakraal....in bigger letters than sukhmani sahib...and this name will be repeated in the Title Pages and elsewhere many times...sometimes on every single page as a footnote...WHY ?? The Original writer just wrote Mahalla 5 ( and that also just to id the human sreer as guru no. 5 )...BUT the Mere COPYCAT publisher splashes his name all over the Gutka...printed USING SANGAT DONATIONS..and calls this "SEWA KARWAII" ???? load of bull-gobar...HAUMAII nu pattheh pauunneh....feeding ones haumaii with cow grass !! to produce the gobar.

THis is the direct result of giving importance to the HUMAN BODY...dehdhareeism..instead of GURMATT. The "person" begins to supercede the MESSAGE....his "human feet" become poojan yog..worthy of being worshipped..instead of the GYAAN of the Shabad...and that how the babaism//mahapurshism....gets stronger than the SHABAD GYAAN....wrong road....towards derawaad....away from GURMATT.

SPN admin bought AKJ into this topic and stated:

'Unless of course these comments should be considered a borderline effort to undermine Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji.'

This statemnt is false and you have no evidence to back up your claim that Taopban tried to undermine Guru Granth Sahib. This couldn't be further from the truth, gurdwara Tapoban Sahib teach santhiya, punjabi, gurmat classes, kirtan classes, larvar classes, gatka etc. Gurdwara Topoban Sahib are doing great seva and are attaching the sangat to Guru Granth Sahib.

Next quote

'Here is why I say this. Tapoban is an AKJ organization. AKJ historically took on the cause of Panj Khalsa Divan from the early 20th Century. Questioning the bani of the bhagats was a serious bone of contention between Panj Khalsa Divan and Chief Khalsa Divan, and led to a permanent fracture.'
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

In early stages PKJ did good seva and preached Gurmat principles but later in 1920's they drifted away from Gurmat. You have tried to link PKJ to AKJ by suggesting since PJK opposed bhagat bani therefore AKJ opposed bhagat bani, yet you dont have a shred of evidence for this. AKJ do not reject bhagat bani at all. This was Teja Singh Bhasaur who Bhai Sahib refused to meet because of his anti-panthic ideology.



'Is it not somewhat irrelevant to the message of Sheik Farid? Is the historical identity of Sheik Farid more important than the message of his bani'

and

'There is no "history"of any Guru in the Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji. We should follow the same line of thought and not dwell too much on whos' - Jarnail Singh ji

This thread was a discussion on whether bhagats were born before or were alive during Guru Nanak Dev ji's lifetime. In this case the historical identity is relevant due to the fact Sheikh Farid Shakarganj was staunch a muslim who followed sharia and converted many hindus to islam, he was born around 300 years before Guru Nanak Dev ji and he was no a native of Punjab.

These points make it clear that it can't be Farid Shakarganj ji bani in Guru Granth Sahib - the linguistics of Baba Farid ji's bani and Guru Nanak ji's match very closely just read the bani of these Mahapurakhs. It had to be a contemporary of Guru Nanak Dev ji due to the similar language used, if it were written 300 years prior the Punjabi used would have been very different. Also Baba Farid ji's bani is pure Gurmat and does not match with Islam ie sharia, Prophet Mohammed being the last messanger, day of judgement etc. Instead Baba ji's bani matches perfectly with the ideals set out by Guru Nanak dev ji. Baba Farid ji stresses the importance meeting Akal Purakh through Satguru and naam simran. These concepts are different to Islamic way to meet God. Therefore it makes more sense that Sheikh Ibrahim who was sitting on the gaddi of Sheikh Farid Shakarganj ji and was 10th in line from this gaddi, drifted away from certain Islamic beliefs and was drawn more towards the bhakti concept. His ideals were now more in line with Gurmat principles. It makes much more sense that it was actually sheikh Ibrahim ji's bani, who was a contemporary of Guru Nanak devji, which was incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib.
Reference:: Sikh Philosophy Network http://www.sikhphilosophy.net/showthread.php?t=36530

Those who believe that Guru Granth Sahib validates all religions and that Guru Granth Sahib says that all relgions lead to God, often use the argument that since Baba Farid was a muslim and his bani is in Guru Granth Sahib, therefore Guru ji accepts Islam can also lead one to God. But using new research one can prove that bhagats whose bani was incorporated into Guru Granth Sahib were not Muslims hindus in the traditional sense but that their ideoligies had move away from Hinduism and Islam and move to a new way to meet God through Satguru and Naam Simran. I urge sangat to read Giani Gurdit Singh's book - 'Itihaas Sri Guru Granth Sahib: Bhagat Bani (History of Guru Granth Sahib: Bhagat Bani, second edition' Giani ji visited birthplaces of the bhagats and found old manuscripts which suggest that bhagats were contempories of Guru Sahib and actually met Maharaj in person.

Their is no problem in someone doing research into this area as long as it is not biased. I agree with Jarnail Singh most important thing is to do paath of bhagat bani. Nowhere have I suggested that history is the most important thing or that history is more important than following bachans of Gurbani. Of course the highest karams are naam simran, abhiyaas of bani, seva etc.

However I still believe that history has an important role, shaheedi of Guru Arjan Dev ji and Guru TeghBahadur ji, Chaar sahibzade, Banda Singh Bahadur etc Our history is great and many of these important events have been preserved by various writers.

There is a saying in Panjab that if a jug milk has a few insects in it you don't throw away the whole jug of milk. You remove the insect and use the rest of the milk. Dont throw away the baby with the bathwater. By using the kaswati (touchstone) of Gurbani, we can accept those sakhi's that match with Gurmat and those that reject Gurmat we can discard. By rejecting every single document we could be ignoring diamonds, genuine sakhis that could increase our understanding of the philosophy of Guru Maharaj such as kirat karna - Guru Nanak Dev ji used to do farming and worked in shop at Sulatanpur to earn a living. The ten Guru Sahiban practised what they preached and this can be seen in various episodes during their lives. Sure there are many sakhis that go against Gurmat but we can use Gurbani to help us decipher which sakhis are authentic those which are false.

Damdami Taksal has produced in my opinion produced two of the great leaders of modern times, bhai Kartar Singh ji and bhai Jarnail Singh ji. When bhai Kartar Singh was injured in an accident and required an operation on his heart he refused as this would of meant cutting his hair in order to operate. As a result bhai Kartar Singh ji died. This is the love bhai Kartar Singh ji had for Guru Gobind Singh ji. The whole panth knows of the great seva bhai Jarnail Singh and bhai Amrik Singh did for the panth. Even in their last moments bhai Amrik Singh ji fought like lion against the indian army at Akal Takht. Bhai Jarnail Singh always remained loyal to the panth and Akal Takht and refused to allow ragmala to be read at Akal Takht even though he was a firm believer in Ragamala. Bhai Thakur Singh ji even in his old age went abroad to various countries trying to raise money for shaheed families. Its easy to criticize and look at faults of Taksal but nobody can take away their contribution for the panth. Their legacy will not diminish and rightly so.

Rabb rakhe

Waheguru Ji Ka khalsa Waheguru Ki Fateh