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Old 03-Nov-2008, 19:43 PM
Randip Singh's Avatar Randip Singh Randip Singh is offline
 
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Exclamation Re: A Thought on Possible Contradictions Relating to the 5 K's and Amrit

Quote:
Originally Posted by Caspian View Post
I come from a gur-sikh family and when I was little my grandpa would read stories to me about the teachings, practices and lives of the Gurus. Growing up however I started becoming less and less religious; although, I think I have a considerable amount of knowledge pretaining to sikhism and other relegions. Despite the fact I think I "know" a lot about these relegions, I cant help but waiver between being agnostic and athiest (, this has a lot to do with me taking science courses cuz my punjabi family wants me to become a doctor, so typical huh?). I know there's no real contradiction between sikhism and science but I think that there are some contradictions between the teachings, practices and lives of the gurus. For my example, I will cite from "SikhiWiki" which is a wikipedia like site dedicated to information on sikhism.

Example 1:

This is an anecdote from the early life of Guru Nanak Dev Ji

"Guru Nanak from an early age evidenced a questioning and enquiring mind. He soon mastered the Vedas and Sanskrit and was enrolled into a madrassa to study Persian and Arabic. Picking up both languages quickly, he surprised his teacher by composing an acrostic on the Persian language. When it was time for Nanak to be invested with the twice born thread the “sacred” thread, called the Janeu, he refused to take part in the ritual. When the priest continued to insist that the young Nanak done the string he went into a trance and sang: Let mercy be the cotton, contentment the thread, Continence the knot and truth the twist. Oh priest! if you have such a thread, Do give it to me. It will not wear out, nor get soiled, nor be burnt, nor lost. Says Nanak, blessed are those who go about wearing such a thread." So basically, a young Nanak rejected the ritual thread of the Hindu priest and justified it by suggesting that a simple piece of thread cannot make you a true Hindu, it's almost "for show" instead a true Hindu or any "good person" in the eyes of god has all the good attributes within them (this is the interpretation I was told from my grandfather).

Now if you fast forward to the time of the Tenth Guru, Guru Gobind Singh Ji, becoming a true Sikh would require one to take amrit and keep the 5 K's, even though amrit in sikhism is symbolic for something that lays within you by the grace of god. Can it not be argued that the same thread Guru Nanak rejected was symbolic of the same idea? If in fact a piece of thread cannot make you a true hindu then surely Amrit and the 5 K's alone cannot make you a true sikh, but my question is whether or not they are even needed to be on the path toward God. If what is important is that which lies within you, then the external acts of drinking amrit and keeping the 5 K's are trivial? Can one reject amrit and the 5 K's for the same reason Guru Nanak rejected the thread? The priest in the story told Guru Nanak that a person would not be considered religous without this thread, and let's face it, Sikh's arent considered "relegious" unless they are amrit-shuk and display the 5 K's, yet Guru Nanak still rejected the ritual and Guru Gobind created a ritual. I view this as a contradictory practice. This also leads me to another example

Example 2

For this example ill paraphrase, if you actually want to read the evidence i suggest you google it () but im sure this is common knowledge to most of you. One of Guru Nanak's contribution to the world was the idea of a "Universal Message" that did not only apply to Hindu's but to Muslims as well and others too. When asked if he was either a Muslim or a Hindu he replied by saying "Neither" or by saying "both" and even as a baby, when a muslim priest visited his house and presented him with a jug of water (symbolizing islam) and a jug of milk (symbolizing hinduism) to see which one he would place his hand in, he put his hands in both. Having said this, if, hypothetically, guru nanak was alive today and someone were to ask him if he was a Muslim, Hindu or Sikh... would Guru Nanak still say he isnt any one of them? or all of them? I am aware our relegion does not suggest a muslim or hindu cannot achieve oneness with god, instead it suggests that anyone can do it, but I am afraid that by the simply creating "sikhism" this alienates alot of people. Personally im inclined to believe sikhism is more a way of life like Buddhism then a relegion in the same vein as Islam, Christianity or Hinduism but if a muslim can reach god and so can a hindu then of what importance are the 5 K's. If simply being the best person you can be, believing in god, and praying is enough then what purpose do the 5 K's have and Is that purpose ultimately trivial?

Anyways, im just trying to expand my knowledge so im lookin forward to reading replies from a different perspective as mine. Ive thought bout this issue alot so i even have my own answer for it, but it doesnt satisfy me so im hopin you guys can explain this matter to me :P.


- Gurinder
Excellent discussion.

Firstly I would implore you from just reading information just at Sikhiwiki, there are many innacuracies there.

You are correct about one point about Amrit and the 5 k's and the paralell's with the Janeo.

However, one have to ask the question about what these symbols were actually for.

For example the Janeo actually represented one's caste, i.e. one worse a Janeo out of different material's according to one caste status. Guru Nanak absolutely rejected this notion. Read the shabad surroundinding Janeo:

ਆਸਾ ਮਹਲਾ
आसा महला १ ॥
Āsā mėhlā 1.
Aasaa, First Mehl:

ਕਾਇਆ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਮਨੁ ਹੈ ਧੋਤੀ
काइआ ब्रहमा मनु है धोती ॥
Kā▫i▫ā barahmā man hai ḏẖoṯī.
Let the body be the Brahmin, and let the mind be the loin-cloth;

ਗਿਆਨੁ ਜਨੇਊ ਧਿਆਨੁ ਕੁਸਪਾਤੀ
गिआनु जनेऊ धिआनु कुसपाती ॥
Gi▫ān jane▫ū ḏẖi▫ān kuspāṯī.
let spiritual wisdom be the sacred thread, and meditation the ceremonial ring.

ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮਾ ਜਸੁ ਜਾਚਉ ਨਾਉ
हरि नामा जसु जाचउ नाउ ॥
Har nāmā jas jācẖa▫o nā▫o.
I seek the Name of the Lord and His Praise as my cleansing bath.

ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਬ੍ਰਹਮਿ ਸਮਾਉ ॥੧॥
गुर परसादी ब्रहमि समाउ ॥१॥
Gur parsādī barahm samā▫o. ||1||
By Guru's Grace, I am absorbed into God. ||1||

ਪਾਂਡੇ ਐਸਾ ਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬੀਚਾਰੁ
पांडे ऐसा ब्रहम बीचारु ॥
Pāʼnde aisā barahm bīcẖār.
O Pandit, O religious scholar, contemplate God in such a way

ਨਾਮੇ ਸੁਚਿ ਨਾਮੋ ਪੜਉ ਨਾਮੇ ਚਜੁ ਆਚਾਰੁ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ
नामे सुचि नामो पड़उ नामे चजु आचारु ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥
Nāme sucẖ nāmo paṛa▫o nāme cẖaj ācẖār. ||1|| rahā▫o.
that His Name may sanctify you, that His Name may be your study, and His Name your wisdom and way of life. ||1||Pause||

ਬਾਹਰਿ ਜਨੇਊ ਜਿਚਰੁ ਜੋਤਿ ਹੈ ਨਾਲਿ
बाहरि जनेऊ जिचरु जोति है नालि ॥
Bāhar jane▫ū jicẖar joṯ hai nāl.
The outer sacred thread is worthwhile only as long as the Divine Light is within.

ਧੋਤੀ ਟਿਕਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਸਮਾਲਿ
धोती टिका नामु समालि ॥
Ḏẖoṯī tikā nām samāl.
So make the remembrance of the Naam, the Name of the Lord, your loin-cloth and the ceremonial mark on your forehead.

ਐਥੈ ਓਥੈ ਨਿਬਹੀ ਨਾਲਿ
ऐथै ओथै निबही नालि ॥
Aithai othai nibhī nāl.
Here and hereafter, the Name alone shall stand by you.

ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਹੋਰਿ ਕਰਮ ਭਾਲਿ ॥੨॥
विणु नावै होरि करम न भालि ॥२॥
viṇ nāvai hor karam na bẖāl. ||2||
Do not seek any other actions, except the Name. ||2||

ਪੂਜਾ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਮਾਇਆ ਪਰਜਾਲਿ
पूजा प्रेम माइआ परजालि ॥
Pūjā parem mā▫i▫ā parjāl.
Worship the Lord in loving adoration, and burn your desire for Maya.

ਏਕੋ ਵੇਖਹੁ ਅਵਰੁ ਭਾਲਿ
एको वेखहु अवरु न भालि ॥
Ėko vekẖhu avar na bẖāl.
Behold only the One Lord, and do not seek out any other.

ਚੀਨ੍ਹ੍ਹੈ ਤਤੁ ਗਗਨ ਦਸ ਦੁਆਰ
चीन्है ततु गगन दस दुआर ॥
Cẖīnĥai ṯaṯ gagan ḏas ḏu▫ār.
Become aware of reality, in the Sky of the Tenth Gate;

ਹਰਿ ਮੁਖਿ ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਬੀਚਾਰ ॥੩॥
हरि मुखि पाठ पड़ै बीचार ॥३॥
Har mukẖ pāṯẖ paṛai bīcẖār. ||3||
read aloud the Lord's Word, and contemplate it. ||3||

ਭੋਜਨੁ ਭਾਉ ਭਰਮੁ ਭਉ ਭਾਗੈ
भोजनु भाउ भरमु भउ भागै ॥
Bẖojan bẖā▫o bẖaram bẖa▫o bẖāgai.
With the diet of His Love, doubt and fear depart.

ਪਾਹਰੂਅਰਾ ਛਬਿ ਚੋਰੁ ਲਾਗੈ
पाहरूअरा छबि चोरु न लागै ॥
Pāhrū▫arā cẖẖab cẖor na lāgai.
With the Lord as your night watchman, no thief will dare to break in.

ਤਿਲਕੁ ਲਿਲਾਟਿ ਜਾਣੈ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਏਕੁ
तिलकु लिलाटि जाणै प्रभु एकु ॥
Ŧilak lilāt jāṇai parabẖ ek.
Let the knowledge of the One God be the ceremonial mark on your forehead.

ਬੂਝੈ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਅੰਤਰਿ ਬਿਬੇਕੁ ॥੪॥
बूझै ब्रहमु अंतरि बिबेकु ॥४॥
Būjẖai barahm anṯar bibek. ||4||
Let the realization that God is within you be your discrimination. ||4||

ਆਚਾਰੀ ਨਹੀ ਜੀਤਿਆ ਜਾਇ
आचारी नही जीतिआ जाइ ॥
Ācẖārī nahī jīṯi▫ā jā▫e.
Through ritual actions, God cannot be won over;


ਪਾਠ ਪੜੈ ਨਹੀ ਕੀਮਤਿ ਪਾਇ
पाठ पड़ै नही कीमति पाइ ॥
Pāṯẖ paṛai nahī kīmaṯ pā▫e.
by reciting sacred scriptures, His value cannot be estimated.

ਅਸਟ ਦਸੀ ਚਹੁ ਭੇਦੁ ਪਾਇਆ
असट दसी चहु भेदु न पाइआ ॥
Asat ḏasī cẖahu bẖeḏ na pā▫i▫ā.
The eighteen Puraanas and the four Vedas do not know His mystery.

ਨਾਨਕ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਬ੍ਰਹਮੁ ਦਿਖਾਇਆ ॥੫॥੨੦॥
नानक सतिगुरि ब्रहमु दिखाइआ ॥५॥२०॥
Nānak saṯgur barahm ḏikẖā▫i▫ā. ||5||20||
O Nanak, the True Guru has shown me the Lord God. ||5||20||
So Guru Nanak is saying that God cannot be won by rituals.

So what of the 5k's and Amrit?

You are correct that these have become rituals now to some extent but at that point in time they had a significant practical effect.

Drinking of different castes from the same bowl of water, waas unheard of in Indian society. The Guru called this Amrit i.e. Water of the Imortals (which harks back to Hindu mythology), i.e. those that drank from this water became immortal, and it was impossible to pollute this water by different castes drinking from it.

The 5 k's each focuses one's mind on a particular aspect. It is ineffect a uniform (along military lines).

Both things in effect used to promoted equality rather than difference (like Janeo).

But I do agree, that these have become symbols rather than something of meaning nowadays.
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